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DmonHiro wrote:

shamisen the great wrote:

And everytime someone says this I want to point out that both "stealing" and "copyright infringement" are illegal.

I know that. Everyone knows that. But just because they are both illegal, does not mean they are interchangeable. You call raping "rape" and assaulting "assault". So call copyright infringement "copyright infringement". I know calling it "stealing" makes it sound way more dramatic, but it's incorrect, and it makes whoever uses it sound stupid.

Calling it stealing understates the damage being done to the income of artists. Stealing a single copy of a manga will not destroy the market value of a manga. Hosting a single file of that same manga on one of the biggest sites for unlimited reproduction has already been reported to us by Vertical_Ed of cutting sales by a double digit percentage. Each lost sale is lost income to the original artist.

So call it ripping off the creator, since ripping off is technically accurate while doing a better job of what is going on.

Here we go again. One download does not, and will never equal one lost sale, no matter what the RIIA want you to believe. You think everyone who downloaded Bleach would have bought it if they couldn't download it?

Also "lost sale = lost income".....really Captain O?

DmonHiro wrote:

Here we go again. One download does not, and will never equal one lost sale, no matter what the RIIA want you to believe. You think everyone who downloaded Bleach would have bought it if they couldn't download it?

At the same time, appearance on the biggest manga viewer sites clearly does result in lost sales. I notice you did not dispute that, but instead disputed a 1-for-1 claim that I never made.

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Also "lost sale = lost income".....really Captain O?

I would have thought it was obvious, but the claim has actually been made that mangaka receive no income from US sales.

And, for example, it would normally be obvious that:

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Hosting a single file of that same manga on one of the biggest sites for unlimited reproduction has already been reported to us by Vertical_Ed of cutting sales by a double digit percentage. Each lost sale is lost income to the original artist.

... is in no way, shape or form claiming that each download is a lost sale ... and yet you were unable to see the obvious there.

So it seems, sometimes the facts bear repeating, even if they are obvious. Bootleg distribution of licensed material on a massive scale leads to lost sales, and those lost sales represent lost income to the original artists.

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Ah, yes, the whole "system is corrupt, I am a rebel" argument. It's very "I am 17 years old."

The artists are voluntarily working for and in the system. The system pays them, and without it they are unemployed. As the companies in the system has suffered, they've had to curb production and not hire back artists for new projects. The artists themselves have expressed support for the system, on the record, many times. There are a few people producing content outside the system, but for the most part it's either eccentric garbage Flash or 3D CG, with a few notable exceptions. If they're any good, they get fansubbed and pirated anyway, just like the stuff produced by the system.

Nice try but I'm actually approaching 30. It makes me sad that you've "lost your way" so to speak. They work for the system because they HAVE to work for the system. It doesn't mean they WANT to work for the system. I'm sure the "support" they've expressed was lip-service so they don't lose their jobs. What you fail to see is that if there were no system, I'd be able to support the actual artist and not have my money go to some unnecessary bureaucrat.

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Unlike music, filmed entertainment requires a staff of hundreds to make, so there's really no way of producing it without a system of some sort.

Really? Tell that to Shinkai-sama. What about mangaka? They're still stuck in the same system.

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As for these monolithic companies you think exist, I've visited them. They're not that big. Bandai Visual has not even 100 people. Showgate, D-Rights, Gonzo and the smaller studios have less than 50.

Still 50 more hands in the pot that don't need to be there. These hands are doing more to "steal" from the artist than I ever will. Other than the actual artists drawing the anime/manga nobody else is necessary. Fansubs and scans do all the translating and marketing without having to stick their hand into the artists mouth.

The Internet is going to do more to free the artist than any other invention and I just hope that everybody can see that light sooner than later.

I think your take on piracy is pretty fair. We've all had a time in our lives when we just download everything, particularly back when bittorrent was still shiny and new.

My downloading of tv shows and movies has significantly dropped over the years, mostly due to more resources existing to access the media I'm interested in legally. Even when I do download things, I usually watch it immediately and then delete it, occasionally giving it a rewatch - mostly with TV shows that come out every week, I'll rewatch the series after the last episode has come out. I don't really see the need to keep fansub files on my computer. Usually by the time I want to see something again, it has been released in North America so I will purchase it. I always cringe when I go over someone's house to watch anime and their entire collection is a bunch of files on an external harddrive. Pretty much the only downloaded video files I keep on my computer are from british tv shows that I can't get on dvd here (yet).

kikiyo2 wrote:

Nice try but I'm actually approaching 30. It makes me sad that you've "lost your way" so to speak. They work for the system because they HAVE to work for the system. It doesn't mean they WANT to work for the system. I'm sure the "support" they've expressed was lip-service so they don't lose their jobs. What you fail to see is that if there were no system, I'd be able to support the actual artist and not have my money go to some unnecessary bureaucrat.

Ah yes, spoken like someone who is utterly ignorant of how the entertainment industry works and does not actually know any working artists.

Kudos, you've managed to turn your bullshit justification for piracy into a self-serving "crusade" based on pure hypotheticals. You're just one more part of the problem, buddy.

kikiyo2 wrote:

Nice try but I'm actually approaching 30. It makes me sad that you've "lost your way" so to speak. They work for the system because they HAVE to work for the system. It doesn't mean they WANT to work for the system. I'm sure the "support" they've expressed was lip-service so they don't lose their jobs. What you fail to see is that if there were no system, I'd be able to support the actual artist and not have my money go to some unnecessary bureaucrat.

I'm sure the public statements are to some extent lip service, but privately several major animators and directors have expressed way more concern to me over piracy and the effects that's having on them and their friends than the system they work for underpaying them. And yes, they do have to work for the system. And they're trying to change the system to make it better, hence the new animator's union.

So "lost my way" nothing, get off your high-horse. Personally, I work so hard on streaming because I'm trying to fix the problems of the business and contribute, and it's nearly the entire focus of my life right now. All you appear to be doing is whining that the system is broken and using it to justify piracy. I'm fine with a declaration that the system is broken -- it's true to some degree. But all you're doing is contributing to another problem, and doing nothing while casting judgement on me. Proof positive you don't have to be 17 to have the mindset of one.

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Really? Tell that to Shinkai-sama. What about mangaka? They're still stuck in the same system.

Shinkai is an anomaly. As you stated above, most artists don't have the luxury, or frankly, the ability to produce work like that, and even though Shinkai's first film was produced primarily by himself, he hasn't worked like that since. Look at the credits list on 5cm per second. Most "indie" anime looks like Super Milk Chan or Neko Rahmen... not the sort of stuff most of us think of when we're asked for our favorite shows ever. Conversely, most TV EPISODES have a staff of over 200 people, most of whom are not credited.

With manga, it's a lot easier to be an indie manga artist, but it's still almost impossible to make a living as one. So things aren't quite as black and white in that category.

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Still 50 more hands in the pot that don't need to be there. These hands are doing more to "steal" from the artist than I ever will. Other than the actual artists drawing the anime/manga nobody else is necessary. Fansubs and scans do all the translating and marketing without having to stick their hand into the artists mouth.

A very silly statement clearly made by someone who has never attempted to produce filmed content. The producers behind content have really challenging jobs, and most of the challenge is finding the moeny to PAY THE ARTISTS believe it or not. I've done it in film school, I did it earlier in my career, I know and work with several producers, and that is how they spend 95% of their time. It's easy to live in this utopian fantasy world where only pure artistic expression is important and everything to do with money and distribution is evil, but the fact of the matter is, the sort of content we all enjoy is only possible with money and distribution. If you prefer content that does not require these things, I suggest you leave ANN right now and spend your time in indie music and performance art forums. But enjoying the fruits of this process while not patronizing it and claiming some BS moral high ground is ridiculous to the point of delusion.

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The Internet is going to do more to free the artist than any other invention and I just hope that everybody can see that light sooner than later.

On this, at least, we can agree. But getting from point A to point B is going to be painful and take many years.

kikiyo2 wrote:

Quote:

Ah, yes, the whole "system is corrupt, I am a rebel" argument. It's very "I am 17 years old."

The artists are voluntarily working for and in the system. The system pays them, and without it they are unemployed. As the companies in the system has suffered, they've had to curb production and not hire back artists for new projects. The artists themselves have expressed support for the system, on the record, many times. There are a few people producing content outside the system, but for the most part it's either eccentric garbage Flash or 3D CG, with a few notable exceptions. If they're any good, they get fansubbed and pirated anyway, just like the stuff produced by the system.

Nice try but I'm actually approaching 30. It makes me sad that you've "lost your way" so to speak. They work for the system because they HAVE to work for the system. It doesn't mean they WANT to work for the system. I'm sure the "support" they've expressed was lip-service so they don't lose their jobs. What you fail to see is that if there were no system, I'd be able to support the actual artist and not have my money go to some unnecessary bureaucrat.

Quote:

Unlike music, filmed entertainment requires a staff of hundreds to make, so there's really no way of producing it without a system of some sort.

Really? Tell that to Shinkai-sama. What about mangaka? They're still stuck in the same system.

Quote:

As for these monolithic companies you think exist, I've visited them. They're not that big. Bandai Visual has not even 100 people. Showgate, D-Rights, Gonzo and the smaller studios have less than 50.

Still 50 more hands in the pot that don't need to be there. These hands are doing more to "steal" from the artist than I ever will. Other than the actual artists drawing the anime/manga nobody else is necessary. Fansubs and scans do all the translating and marketing without having to stick their hand into the artists mouth.

The Internet is going to do more to free the artist than any other invention and I just hope that everybody can see that light sooner than later.

Are you actually suggesting that anime can get made without some sort of system? I don't think that any single person would be able to do everything that goes into just one show, especially not in a reasonable amount of time. Just consider how long everything would take if they didn't have those 50 people. For instance, if one of the artists was suddenly responsible for managing the production budget, that means that the artist is slowed by the additional duty, and so is the show. What about the voice acting? I suppose you don't need a director to keep everything coherent, and can just let the actors do whatever they think is best and hope it works.

I really have to question your overall work experience if you believe that no management is ever necessary and everything will work out if the artists have to also manage the project on their own. The fact is, people have different skills and it takes more than one kind to make a show.

And, in reality having the artist get a small piece of the money from a legitimate purchase is much better than not giving them anything at all, which is what happens if you don't ever buy anything.

Some points on the Cast (just heard it: am not going through pages of posts before spilling my thoughts out):

1. I usually try to stay away from the fansub/scanlation/piracy debate. I really do. It's a tricky grey area with fanatics on both sides and virtually no middle ground~the Mid-East Peace debate or Abortion debate stuff that we are told not to engage in at a dinner party.

But you got me MAD. My blood was boiling as you defended your own bad habits as youthful indescretions or the desire to watch something NOW, but everyone else is way over line, people developed "bad habits" that need to be culled. And you never felt guilty while you were (and are) engaging in illegal downloading? Oh, the joys of never having attended parochial schools, I suppose.

I like you guys. I respect your opinions and love your podcast. But you need to work on your empathy. Believe it or not, there are many, many people out there for whom it would be irresponsible to spend whatever funds they have on entertainment of any kind. Lecturing them to live without whike you live it up, well, it just makes you sound like jerks. There is a huge middle ground between spoiled, entitled brats and those who want to "stick it" to the legitimate rights holders.

In fact, according to a recent study I read (don't have the link available at the moment) teens tend to spend *more* money on anime and manga because they use their parents dough. It's young adults who are struggling the most economically now. It's not about entitlement issues. It's not about "kids will be kids." It is definately not about convenience. It's about money, it's about escaeism in bad times, it's about keeping up with the stories you've come to love. Not for everyone, of course, but for a lot of people.
[/end rant]

I hope that made sense. I'd love to add that your interview rocked! Baltimore is awesome! (ya know, The Wire isn't the only show representing BMore. They've also got Ace of Cakes Wink

)

I'd love to go to Otakon again this year, but...ugh, real life might get in the way. In any case, I know it'll be amazing!

Talking about real life, congrats on the wedding, Justin! Hope to see a pic of you in a tux after the happy couple are wed!

PS: I think the music question was the funniest and most enlightening twitter Q in a long time. May I suggest a music-themed ANNCast? You could discuss the impact of music on anime, famous composers for anime (I'm a huge Yoko Kanno fangirl myself), and even squeeze in a JRock/Pop discussion in. Wink

Agent355 wrote:

[bizarre rant deleted]I hope that made sense.

Uhh, sorry, I'm afraid you've lost me entirely. We went on at length about how being broke is a factor. I literally don't know what got you so riled, because it sounds like you were pretty much on the same page we were...

kikiyo2 wrote:

They work for the system because they HAVE to work for the system. It doesn't mean they WANT to work for the system. I'm sure the "support" they've expressed was lip-service so they don't lose their jobs. What you fail to see is that if there were no system, I'd be able to support the actual artist and not have my money go to some unnecessary bureaucrat.
...
Still 50 more hands in the pot that don't need to be there. These hands are doing more to "steal" from the artist than I ever will. Other than the actual artists drawing the anime/manga nobody else is necessary. Fansubs and scans do all the translating and marketing without having to stick their hand into the artists mouth.

The Internet is going to do more to free the artist than any other invention and I just hope that everybody can see that light sooner than later.

If you're talking about the manga industry's "system" I'd like to look at the ''artist's'' perspective. Yes I'm about to be hypothetical...

Say you're a professional artist and you draw a picture. You could make your money by selling the drawing. How much depends on if you're selling a copy as opposed to the real thing. Also on who you're selling it to: a custmer, a collector, or a middle-man a.k.a your "system."

You're absolutely right that the internet is the best thing yet for an artist. It connects them to more potential buyers than ever before. Trouble is without the ''system'' there's still no way you'll make enough to live. Sure, without it people could directly support you... if they ever find you. It's a lot of work and you still won't make much. Thing is, there are hundreds of people out there good enough to satisfy our want for entertaiment. Supply and Demand. If a guy figures out how to connect you to them legally and turn a profit, there's nothing wrong with him getting a peice of the pie. For a mangaka trying to get big on both art and writing he is necessary.

I'll cut to my point. Mangaka chose to be apart of the system. They chose to sell their creative rights to a bigger company that can mass-produce their work and get their name to the public faster, for better or worse. If you're such a big supporter/rebel for these artists shouldn't you heed to their consent? How can scaners or aggregator sites, which I garuntee never thought to ask for a creator's opinion-let alone permission-to tamper with and distribute his/her work, *not* be sticking their hands in the artist's mouth?

I have no suggestions, so I'll help by supporting those trying to take a step forward to solve the problem, not by adding to it.

I actually somewhat agree that the manga publishing system in Japan is very unfair to the artists... Very often to the point of being taken advantage of.

And as times get tough it's only natural that this inherently unfair system will get squeezed in a way that will hurt the little guy first.

Fundamentally, manga is something that can be created by an individual or small (~3-5 people) group of people, and distributed easily and cheaply online.
Anime, on the other hand, is not something that can be created by a handful of people, or distributed as easily either. Anime takes hundreds of people to produce on a 30 minute per week basis.

So one cannot and should not assume that the changes that will come to the anime industry will be mirrored in the manga industry, or vica-verca.
It seems to me quite possible that the current system of publishers and manga-ka could be completely destroyed by the internet, while the system of animation production might end up being comparatively modestly modified.
Streaming of anime online and reading manga online may seem similar beasts, but I do not think they can be talked about interchangeably.

samuelp wrote:

Fundamentally, manga is something that can be created by an individual or small (~3-5 people) group of people, and distributed easily and cheaply online. Anime, on the other hand, is not something that can be created by a handful of people, or distributed as easily either.

So one cannot and should not assume that the changes that will come to the anime industry will be mirrored in the manga industry, or vica-verca. […] Streaming of anime online and reading manga online may seem similar beasts, but I do not think they can be talked about interchangeably.

I have to say thanks. This is something that's been annoying me...

If everyone could just understand this concept I know we could have saved ourselves a lot of unnecessary posts.

Generally I stick to the manga side of things because that's what I know. But it's hard to do so when someone throws out random anime examples that simply don't belong. Or vis-versa, in this thread's case, when talking about pirating anime, but then bring up scans, I just had to say something to represent even if I'm just as confusing (For the record I also think the publishing system can be unfair, but artists are starting to band together to defend themselves and stop that abuse. I hope they succeed).

To get back to the ANNcast, I forgot to mention how I relate to the collector thing. I don't own much anime I do own a lot of manga. There's something about seeing your bookshelf filled with your own personal library that you can pull out to read or lend at any time. I know that's the main reason why I'm not dependant on pirated scans. Especially the illegal licensed series scans.

samuelp wrote:

I actually somewhat agree that the manga publishing system in Japan is very unfair to the artists... Very often to the point of being taken advantage of.

And as times get tough it's only natural that this inherently unfair system will get squeezed in a way that will hurt the little guy first.

Fundamentally, manga is something that can be created by an individual or small (~3-5 people) group of people, and distributed easily and cheaply online.
Anime, on the other hand, is not something that can be created by a handful of people, or distributed as easily either. Anime takes hundreds of people to produce on a 30 minute per week basis.

So one cannot and should not assume that the changes that will come to the anime industry will be mirrored in the manga industry, or vica-verca.
It seems to me quite possible that the current system of publishers and manga-ka could be completely destroyed by the internet, while the system of animation production might end up being comparatively modestly modified.
Streaming of anime online and reading manga online may seem similar beasts, but I do not think they can be talked about interchangeably.

How the hell are getting shared rights with publishers unfair? You get the ability to be read by millions right off the bat. I mean do you honestly think Oda would make anywhere near the money selling One Piece on the internet? Give me one webcomic who gets 2 million views per comic? Penny-Arcade probably the most succesful webcomic in America can't even finish an episodic game series and you expect Oda to drop his contract for a lot less money?

If you honestly think the internet is going to wipe out manga, than I would be a lot more worried with anime, which needs to average about 10,000 per DVD just to break even.and their not making it.

Charred Knight wrote:

If you honestly think the internet is going to wipe out manga, than I would be a lot more worried with anime, which needs to average about 10,000 per DVD just to break even.and their not making it.

You're off, whether you're talking about US or Japanese sales. Around 3,000 per volume is said to be the magic number for Japanese releases. The number is lower for US releases, particularly sub-only ones.

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