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Hey, Answerman! Indecent Expo-sure


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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2228
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:36 pm Reply with quote
labantnet wrote:
Did anyone else find this statement to not make sense?
Quote:
I am an otaku and I think R2 prices are perfectly natural. I would gladly buy all the Japanese Soranowoto BDs for 490,00 yen if they had English subtitles.


Punching that number of yen into google gives out ~550 USD. if I take the comma as the decimal in English notation, it's 5.50 USD. Either of these numbers make no sense. If an R2 BD was only 5.50 USD, no one would ever complain. On the flip side, if a single DVD (Or even the full 12 episodes) was 550 USD, The industry would surly fail. That's about 2 weeks worth of minimum wage pay (After taxes of course). Who would ever think that is an acceptable price to pay? Especially when you look at American BD TV show releases. Look at True Blood. Season 1 on BD on Amazon for ~45 USD for 12 hour long episodes. That's ~equivalent to 24-36 Anime Episodes. So why pay twice that for the the same equivalent of episodes? Or even pay that much for half the episodes?

Just for the record, the Sora no Oto Blu-rays (special edition) are 7350 yen each with 2 episodes on each disc, for a total of 7 volumes I think... That's 51,450 yen retail for the entire series. (so the person above was missing a zero).
It works out to around $40 per episode, which is one of the most expensive releases out there for something that's not an OVA.

The cheapest option are the normal DVDS, which are 5250 each, which is 36,750 yen at $30 an episode.
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labantnet



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
Location: Anoka, MN
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:46 pm Reply with quote
My statement stands. Ridiculous pricing scheme.
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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2228
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:53 pm Reply with quote
labantnet wrote:
My statement stands. Ridiculous pricing scheme.

I wasn't trying to refute you, just trying to make sure people had accurate numbers.
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einhorn303



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1180
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:09 pm Reply with quote
I submitted that answer, so I mise well clarify some things:

labantnet wrote:
Did anyone else find this statement to not make sense?
Quote:
I am an otaku and I think R2 prices are perfectly natural. I would gladly buy all the Japanese Soranowoto BDs for 490,00 yen if they had English subtitles.


Punching that number of yen into google gives out ~550 USD. if I take the comma as the decimal in English notation, it's 5.50 USD.


Nah, I'm not using it as a decimal. I just put the comma there so it synchs up to how the US dollar works and makes it easier to read.

labantnet wrote:

On the flip side...if even the full 12 episodes) was 550 USD, The industry would surly fail.


That pricing scheme has obviously worked for Japan for the last 15 years or so.

And in regards to the US market, one might say "It would never work because Americans don't love anime as much as the Japanese and aren't as willing to pay for it." However, for me personally that doesn't hold true.

labantnet wrote:
Especially when you look at American BD TV show releases. Look at True Blood. Season 1 on BD on Amazon for ~45 USD for 12 hour long episodes. That's ~equivalent to 24-36 Anime Episodes. So why pay twice that for the the same equivalent of episodes? Or even pay that much for half the episodes?


Because an episode of Soranowoto gives me four times as much pleasure/enjoyment as an episode of True Blood? If I had to quantify it, it probably be more than four times. Heck, technically it'd be infinite times more pleasure/enjoyment because I wouldn't ever care enough to pop in a True Blood BD and watch it.

samuelp wrote:

...Just for the record, the Sora no Oto Blu-rays (special edition) are 7350 yen each with 2 episodes on each disc, for a total of 7 volumes I think... That's 51,450 yen retail for the entire series. (so the person above was missing a zero)...


I was going by CDJapan's prices...they just have them as 7000 Yen each, so I guess it's discounted a bit.
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labantnet



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 57
Location: Anoka, MN
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:47 pm Reply with quote
einhorn303 wrote:
labantnet wrote:

On the flip side...if even the full 12 episodes) was 550 USD, The industry would surly fail.


That pricing scheme has obviously worked for Japan for the last 15 years or so.

And in regards to the US market, one might say "It would never work because Americans don't love anime as much as the Japanese and aren't as willing to pay for it." However, for me personally that doesn't hold true.

labantnet wrote:
Especially when you look at American BD TV show releases. Look at True Blood. Season 1 on BD on Amazon for ~45 USD for 12 hour long episodes. That's ~equivalent to 24-36 Anime Episodes. So why pay twice that for the the same equivalent of episodes? Or even pay that much for half the episodes?


Because an episode of Soranowoto gives me four times as much pleasure/enjoyment as an episode of True Blood? If I had to quantify it, it probably be more than four times. Heck, technically it'd be infinite times more pleasure/enjoyment because I wouldn't ever care enough to pop in a True Blood BD and watch it.

samuelp wrote:

...Just for the record, the Sora no Oto Blu-rays (special edition) are 7350 yen each with 2 episodes on each disc, for a total of 7 volumes I think... That's 51,450 yen retail for the entire series. (so the person above was missing a zero)...


I was going by CDJapan's prices...they just have them as 7000 Yen each, so I guess it's discounted a bit.



So here goes. First, as samuelp wrote, this is one of the most expensive releases for a non OVA release. So I wouldn't say that that pricing scheme has worked for 15 years. Also, since the Anime industry in Japan has been shrinking for the past 6 years (I think that is the year that things started the steady decline, +/- a year or so.) I would again say that it is far from working for them.

Second, You're splitting hairs. I used True Blood as an example. I wasn't saying that it's the only American show in all of existence. Your statement is extremely nearsighted. You're acting like there exists no other Television show. Aside from that, my statement about the True Blood BD release was to illustrate the difference in the pricing for similar amounts of content.

Here's Another example, note that, EXAMPLE, of American pricing: Fringe Season one, 22 episodes, 40 USD. That's 40 USD for the equivalent of between 44 and 66 anime episodes. The show is not important, just the pricing.

Either way the point is, if the most expensive American movie standard BD release is 45 USD, and an equivalent Japanese anime movie BD release is 250 USD. You're saying that the Japanese pricing is ok, and should be followed here? Do you want the industry to die?
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6248
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:11 pm Reply with quote
Hardgear wrote:

That being said, anime could use some positive mainstream exposure. A typical conversation about anime with non-anime fans usually goes something like this:

Me: You should really watch Claymore, you would probably like it.
Friend: I have never heard of that movie before, what is it about?
Me: It is an anime about...
Friend *cutting me off*: Aren't you too old to be watching cartoons?
Me: Confused You watch Simpsons and Family guy, what are you talking about?
Friend: That's different
Me *pulling my brain trying to process that*: Confused
Friend: They are just like normal sitcoms, but they use animation to do things the live action ones can't
Me: Anime does that too, you would know if you actually watched it
Friend: I don't have time to watch childish cartoons
Me: Shocked YOU WATCH FAMILY GUY!
Friend: I told you that's different
Me *realizing this is going in circles, tries something different*: Fine, watch Ghost in the Shell, it is an intelligent, very non-childish anime that was even on American TV for a while, and still is actually
Friend *looks it up on his computer, sees picture of Motoko in her usual revealing outfit*: Why would I watch animated porn when I can watch the real thing?
Me *brain is fracturing fast*: Shocked Watch it before you judge, AT LEAST READ THE DESCRIPTION! And weren't you just saying how anime is just a bunch of childish cartoons?
Friend: That's different
Me *brain shatters*: Anime cry

Yeah... they will say anything to avoid watching it, no matter how little sense it makes, apparently they are so afraid of the alleged stigma that goes with it...


Then show him anime like Halo Legends, Batman: Gotham Knight or any anime based on western properties. I want to see how 'friends' react to that.
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:30 pm Reply with quote
edzieba wrote:
My problem is that there are endorsements printed on there at all. From the (admittedly not huge sample) of Japanese releases I own, none have any printed anywhere on the outer packaging. If any are present, they are on discardable separate slip covers (a small strip of paper that wraps over the spine).

BTW, the term for those strips is "obi".
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einhorn303



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1180
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:15 pm Reply with quote
labantnet wrote:


So here goes. First, as samuelp wrote, this is one of the most expensive releases for a non OVA release. So I wouldn't say that that pricing scheme has worked for 15 years. Also, since the Anime industry in Japan has been shrinking for the past 6 years (I think that is the year that things started the steady decline, +/- a year or so.) I would again say that it is far from working for them.


It's comparable to other Bluray releases:

K-On: ¥ 8,400
A Certain Scientific Railgun: ¥ 7,875
Bakemonogatari: ¥ 7,350
Hidamari Sketch x Three Stars: ¥ 7,140
Dance in the Vampire Bund: ¥ 7,140

And those shows are doing perfectly well.

labantnet wrote:

Second, You're splitting hairs. I used True Blood as an example. I wasn't saying that it's the only American show in all of existence. Your statement is extremely nearsighted. You're acting like there exists no other Television show. Aside from that, my statement about the True Blood BD release was to illustrate the difference in the pricing for similar amounts of content.


My point is that to some people there is a large difference in enjoyment between anime (as a generalized and averaged whole) and American TV shows (as a generalized and averaged whole). To them anime (in general) is more valuable, per minute, than American TV shows (in general).

labantnet wrote:
You're saying that the Japanese pricing is ok, and should be followed here? Do you want the industry to die?


That question could possibly be rephrased as, "Do you want mainstream projects with mass appeal to become financially unfeasible, leaving only the niche and hardcore-audience-aimed projects which that business model can support?" To which I'd reply "That doesn't necessarily sound like a bad thing to me."
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eyeresist



Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 995
Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:45 pm Reply with quote
I've always felt there's something suspicious about the huge amount the Japanese supposedly pay for anime on disc. I don't buy the "Japanese are massive otaku and therefore are willing to be reamed repeatedly because they love the animes so much" argument. At about $40 per episode (and considering the high cost of living over there), I think there must be a massive amount of pirating going on.


Thanks to Myra for mentioning Space 1999. I lent my box sets to a friend, and she told me that watching it was destroying her brain cells.
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ZenErik



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 392
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:58 pm Reply with quote
If I had the pleasure of watching some of all sorts of anime on regular TV stations, like in Japan, I would gladly pay the prices they pay. At the same time I would own a lot less series. Not just because of the cost but because I would watch more series all the way through before I consider buying them.

Because the prices are so low in the US, I tend to do a lot more blind buying or buying after only streaming an episode or 2.
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DavidShallcross



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1008
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:16 pm Reply with quote
eyeresist wrote:
I don't buy the "Japanese are massive otaku and therefore are willing to be reamed repeatedly because they love the animes so much" argument. At about $40 per episode (and considering the high cost of living over there), I think there must be a massive amount of pirating going on.

Probably not so much pirating as just recording directly off the TV broadcasts for personal libraries.
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Captain Crotchspike



Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:27 am Reply with quote
Comparing Tomino to Lucas doesn't make a whole of a lot of sense, considering he actually didn't want to make more Gundam - producers kept wanting him to do it. He's since come to be much more positive about Gundam on the whole after making Turn A Gundam, but really, this is the guy who constantly complains about sponsor interference. I don't see how you can be saying that everyone was rolling over for his ideas when so much of Gundam's story and what kind of series get made has often been decided by what the sponsors wanted. Just look at the Z Gundam movies - when asked why they were made, he said "people wanted to make money". It could just be brushed off as a funny comment, but considering how the movies are and how he was talking about wanting to make "Turn A Space" in the years previous, well...

Anyway, I was really disheartened by the answer to the Gundam movie dub question. I guess maybe you were trying to be funny, but pinning it on Tomino and running away with this narrative of him being a crazy person (he can be a bit eccentric, no doubt about it, but not in the way you described) just strikes me as sloppy and lazy. It's more complicated than that, and it's not really fair to always equate Sunrise's protectiveness of the franchise to Tomino. In what I've read about him, he's consistently been one of the most honest, interesting people in the industry, so it's kind of lousy to see him being made out to be some kind of Lucasonian freak he just doesn't seem to really be.

Not to mention, while I agree it would've been nice to have the dub on the DVDs regardless...have you heard it? We're not exactly missing out. Among those mispronunciations is "GunDAMN". :S

And for anyone curious, here's an account of a Q&A panel in which Tomino covers the issue of episode 15 and the soundtrack replacement:

Quote:
Q: The Gundam TV series was released on DVD in the United States, but an episode is missing-- episode 15, "The Isle of Kuklas Dom." I'm wondering what happened to that episode.

YT: Was it the fifteenth, or the thirteenth...? Anyway, I asked that it be skipped.

Q: Any particular reason? You just didn't like it?

YT: There's a reasion, but since the staff is still alive, I can't talk about it. [laughter.]

Also keep in mind this particular episode is fairly infamous for its egregious animation errors.
Quote:
Q: I believe my question speaks for many Gundam fans in the United States. We understand the reason that we did not get the Japanese language version of the first Gundam TV series was because it was not available in Japan. But if it did become available in Japan in the near future, would you leave the audio recordings as they originally were, or would you do another special edition re-recording, as you did with the movie trilogy recently?

YT: The sound quality of the recordings that remain from First Gundam is quite poor at this time. Because of this, there was no other way but to re-record the First Gundam movies, including the addition of new music. So there would be no possibility of having the original soundtrack released in the United States. I agree with Bandai's decision that they had to re-record the soundtrack, and I also understand that there are a lot of fans that are disappointed with this. But there's really no other option, and I'm very sorry about it. [in english] Sorry!
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:22 am Reply with quote
Captain Crotchspike wrote:
Among those mispronunciations is "GunDAMN". :S


Heh. One of the things that annoy me in English-dubbed Gundam is "gun-dumb" apparently being the official pronunciation.
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edzieba



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:28 am Reply with quote
eyeresist wrote:
[...] I think there must be a massive amount of pirating going on.
There is. Share/Winny/PD are almost the standard way to watch anime for many viewers, due to Japan's highly fragmented and localised TV airings (many channels are only available in certain parts of the country). If a shows has aired on TV in Japan, there's a good chance it'll pop up on one/all of those 3 p2p networks within 1/2 and hour or so. Buying the DVDs and BDs isn't the standard way to watch shows, they're collectors items like other licensed merchandise.
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Maximus44



Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 21
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:39 am Reply with quote
einhorn303 wrote:


That question could possibly be rephrased as, "Do you want mainstream projects with mass appeal to become financially unfeasible, leaving only the niche and hardcore-audience-aimed projects which that business model can support?" To which I'd reply "That doesn't necessarily sound like a bad thing to me."



Hold up. You know that you don't want a "niche and hardcore-audience-aimed projects" style market.

If you had that, then all we would get is Loli/moe shows, and those Michael Bay style Gonzo hybrids that japan thinks is cool (and they wouldn't invest time and effort into anything else)!

I would have never got into this industry, if it weren't for the variety (granted, variety was a little lacking back in 1996, but still Manga Ent. and ADV made it fun).

If the market went full-throttle "niche", it would be digging it's own grave (as very few new fans would start, but old fans would quit).


Anyway...I would support an extremely high priced dvd/blu-ray market in the U.S. (meaning that I still want my dubs), but they would have to stream everything they own. I would not blind buy at those prices! Also they would have to guarantee me that the money that they make off of my purchases go to more of what I want (that's right more Ergo Proxy and Mushi-Shi).
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