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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5889
Location: Maryland, USA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:29 pm Reply with quote
Ah I see you're doing something about blanket statements/generalizations Tony. I had problem with those like this one and this one. Do you notice how these two users throw in statements without any supported evidences? That really undermine the rule of arguments and debating. Here's the #1 rule of debate/argument: Always back up your statements with evidences. May I add something to make this rule more effective, Tony:

In order to make your statement not considered a blanket statement, always put links (credible one), graph, or any stat pictures (again they must be credible, updated, and very reliable) to back up your statement otherwise they're considered blanket statement. Me and another ANN user, Enurtsol always back up our statements with evidences. That an example of how to make a good argument and how to make a strong point. A statement with no supported evidence is not going to make you look credible.

I like to quote Charles Dickens:

Charles Dickens in Expectation wrote:
Take nothing on its looks; take everything on evidence. There's no better rule.


Will that work Tony?? Smile
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Tony K.
Moderator


Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 9864
Location: Frisco, TX
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:40 pm Reply with quote
Well, maybe not concrete, numerical evidence for every instance. But yeah, at least a reason of explanation (and maybe more, if the situation really calls for it).

Examples:

"I like/dislike this because _______."

"You're incorrect, dude. [Words, numbers, links] prove, otherwise.

"I'm happy about [blah blah license] because _____."

"Bleh. Not that excited for the news. [Because blah blah blah]."

"I don't like [such and such anime/manga]. [Put reasons here].

Pretty simple.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5889
Location: Maryland, USA
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:05 am Reply with quote
Although that is good Tony, but I'm talking about these blanket statements:

Stuart Smith wrote:
Kadmos1 wrote:
If we're going to complain about Japanese titles being adapted for an American audience, then we should also be complaining about when the opposite is done.


Japan rarely remakes American movies. If you pay attention to mdo you'll notice he reuses the same links all he time because that's essentially all there is. Unlike America, Japan has no problem showing American movies in theaters so there's no grand conspiracy about hiding the original versions of movies and trying to pass them off as American franchises. In America, there's a lot of racism and bias against minority actors so they can't show foreign movies outside very limited screenings.


Anti_Nadalista wrote:

People still talking about about low music sales but America is in worse condition, even digital sales are plummeting. I don´t trust western sources, they are most of the time wrong or clueless and i have my own sources anyway.

Japanese are "irrelevant" in Itunes but Laruku and X-japan played a gig in the arena of the MSG and they didn't have a marketing machine or a viral video behind them.

Latin america don't love Koreans dramas that much, they are niche. Brazil and Colombia are actually dominating the market of dramas in the region.

Sales in America are so low that Babymetal debut was one of the best selling albums in the rock genre this year Anime hyper. One Ok Rock had a tour in latin america this past month and a lot people went to their concerts, same with The Gazette last year.

I want to see Classic Japanese films in Dramafever, people will see actually good films for once in that site Anime hyper.


You see how these 2 users don't put any supported evidences at all, no links, no pictures or stats to back this up. This is the problem I have with these.

This is how people should provide and back up their argument and not make it a blanket statement:

I wrote:

Quote:
The Japanese government and various companies are supporting the "Cool Japan" program that promotes modern Japanese culture such as anime and manga abroad. The program revolves around the premise that Japan's strength in business and international affairs lies in anime, manga, films, fashion, and other fields of Japanese arts and entertainment content. Cool Japan Fund Inc. announced in October that it would invest 14 billion yen (about US$128.1 million) in four overseas projects focused on raising demand for Japanese products and goods.


If Cool Japan wants to do more, I got some suggestions which might help:

-Put more J-pop/J-music on Itunes and Spotify. I mean as Answerman pointed out, labels are reluctant to put up J-music on Itunes. Even Taiwanese pop can be found on US Itunes stores for me to buy.

-Also there should be more Youtube channel for J-pop if they want J-pop to grow and to rival K-pop. I mean I never seen Music Station, Music Fair, or FNS Music Festival having a Youtube channel to broadcast their shows to a global audiences unlike MBC, SBS, KBS (and KBS World where I can watch all full episodes of Music Bank and K-pop performance), and Mnet. I can watch M! Countdown (another K-pop music show) on Mnet website or English subtitled on SoompiTV. If Japanese music program have their own Youtube channel and put up performances on there, then it could help J-pop gain a wider audiences beyond Asia.

-More J-pop/J-music concert outside of Japan/Asia. I mean it's very rare to see J-pop idols to perform outside of Japan and Asia, like for example A-nation has done 2 concerts outside of Japan and not one outside of Asia. Meanwhile K-pop concerts outside of Asia are becoming more frequent according to Billboard. Also there's been some high profile K-pop concerts outside of Asia that brought in a lot of audiences:

Music Bank in Brazil

Music Bank in Mexico trailer and preview.

Now there's going to be a big K-pop concert in the Netherlands next year.


Enurtsol knows how to back up his argument and not make it a blanket statement:

enurtsol wrote:

Tempest_Wing wrote:

Hmm. If this was a project to help Fukushima after the disaster, then I can see that, but I could have sworn reading a couple months ago that Japan was actually closing schools because of the declining birth rate. Or maybe I'm just mistaken.


They are. This is a combined school for those who remain in Fukushima.



That's how people on ANN should not make blanket statement. The one Stuart Smith and Anti_Nadalista provided don't have any supported evidence to back this up where Enurtsol and I always provide evidences (links, pictures, etc...) when the situation is called for it.

Tony, this is how you make sure blanket statement can be eliminated, people on ANN have to provide evidence (links, pictures, charts, stats) to back up their statements. If they don't, it undermine the rule of arguments and will make the person look less credible. You see what I'm trying to point out.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7697
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:38 am Reply with quote
Guys, it's an internet message board about anime, there's only so much policing we can be expected to do. We're not going to start banning people or deleting posts because they're arguing with you and not providing adequate charts. At some point you have to accept that some conversation will be casual and there are going to be people saying things you don't agree with, without really providing any evidence for what they're saying. You can either keep arguing with them or decide they're not worth your time, but we're not going to start actively policing that.

Encouraging good behavior is one thing, but suggesting that we start really cracking skulls over this is too far.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:25 am Reply with quote
mdo7, are you trying to kill net messaging? Or ANN moderators? Smile

Generalization is not always bad. "All cows have four legs" is also one and I don't have to try and prove it even if some cows might have a different count of legs. There are other problems. Look at your examples: "Japan rarely remakes American movies", "they are most of the time wrong or clueless". They are not giving factual information, the weasel word states what is the commenter's attitude towards Japan remaking American movies or trusting Western sources. The statements might be biased or uninformed or something others disagree with, but they are not necessarily pointless without proof even if the commenter simply tries to appear more knowledgeable than they actually are, because they are stating a fact - how they feel about it. If they're unwilling to explain why they feel like that, it's not hard to dismiss them or disagree.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5889
Location: Maryland, USA
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:33 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
mdo7, are you trying to kill net messaging? Or ANN moderators? Smile


I'm not. But jl07045, people on ANN are expected to hold up their argument or statement with supported (and credible) evidence in order to hold up their arguments/statements. I mean if I'm going to make a statement about something, I have to back it up with evidence. It's what I was taught in English classes when it comes to the rule of argument. I expect people on ANN to at least back up their statement:

Teh Rules wrote:
3. Discussions should carry some measure of intelligence to them. Consider if what you are writing is relevant or important to others. If it does not contribute to the discussion, then do not post it. Please post detailed answers to questions; lists and one-liners do not contribute.


Notice I emphasized on "intelligence" part of the rule. I assume that part of the rule meant providing some evidence to backup a statement/argument.

Zac wrote:
We're not going to start banning people or deleting posts because they're arguing with you and not providing adequate charts.

Encouraging good behavior is one thing, but suggesting that we start really cracking skulls over this is too far.


Well if that is not going to be implemented, at least can folks on ANN just provide more then just an argument/statement and at least back it up with a supported but credible evidence. It's not believable to me and other people to just put a statement without any supported evidence. I mean it really undermine the rule of argument and I would considered that as a blanket statement (in my opinion).
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Alan45
Village ElderVillage Elder


Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 7667
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:02 pm Reply with quote
@md07
For what it is worth, the majority of the posts in these forums are expressions of opinion. While opinions should be explained they don't need to be documented. The rule you are referring to is trying to distinguish between:

Anime A sucks

and

Anime A is bad because ... poor animation, plot holes, ugly character design or some other factor.

Beyond a certain point, if you post too many links, charts or whatever, people will just skip over your post and continue on.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 5889
Location: Maryland, USA
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
@md07

For what it is worth, the majority of the posts in these forums are expressions of opinion. While opinions should be explained they don't need to be documented.


I'm not talking about opinion, I'm talking about people putting facts without evidence. Look at Anti_Nadalista's post saying "I don´t trust western sources, they are most of the time wrong or clueless and i have my own sources anyway." He put this up without any evidence and Keonyn pointed it out as a blanket statement. If that's considered a blanket statement (as Keonyn stated) then any statements/arguments/facts without supported evidence is considered blanket statement. Stuart Smith's "In America, there's a lot of racism and bias against minority actors so they can't show foreign movies outside very limited screenings." I think that would also be a blanket statement too if I was in Keonyn's shoe.

you also wrote:
Beyond a certain point, if you post too many links, charts or whatever, people will just skip over your post and continue on.


Well it's better then putting a statement with no supported evidence. I don't mind if people skip over my post, it's their lost and too bad for them. But other people may find my evidence very useful to them from time to time. Just to clarify I followed the rule of argument, I never put a statement or argument without supported evidence. I wish other people would do the same when it comes to defending their argument/statement, at least put some evidence to validate your statement/argument.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:31 pm Reply with quote
The point is that you are not Keonyn nor are you Zac. The only thing you, or I for that matter, can do is report a post if you think it is problematic. If they don't change or challenge it, that is the end of it.

Zac has already said he is not going to require the kind of documentation you think is necessary. At this point you should just deal with it.

Forum discussion is just that. People make comments on items of interest. They have no actual impact on the subject under discussion. As long as people are not being nasty or bullying there are no actual consequences. The fact that someone makes a statement they can't quit support or is a bit exaggerated is expected. If it bothers people they can call them on it. It is not like they are defending a doctoral thesis.
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Psycho 101
Moderator


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 12919
Location: Chora's Den
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:47 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
The point is that you are not Keonyn nor are you Zac. The only thing you, or I for that matter, can do is report a post if you think it is problematic. If they don't change or challenge it, that is the end of it.

Zac has already said he is not going to require the kind of documentation you think is necessary. At this point you should just deal with it.

Following on Alan's point we all should remember there is a rule against back seat moderating as well. Not accusing anyone here directly of it, but I have noticed a rise in it. It's mostly been good natured and has so far seemed to been allowed to slide some. I won't even pretend I have not done it a few times in the past few months myself. That being said the report button is there for a reason. With how many threads and posts get put up here on a daily basis actively reporting posts/threads is the only sure fire way to make sure a moderator presence is felt. None of them, even with the additional ones they plan to add, has the time needed to check every single thread every day that gets activity in it.

Tony already said himself said track records and posting histories can be used to determine if post deletions or warnings are needed. Zac is right though in that some cases, or several, you're going to simply have to deal with the fact that some posters are just not going to post with any sort of depth. The talkback section is just too large and active and too full of users who create handles just to post in one or two threads to go hardcore lock/delete happy. It's a pointless battle to take them all on. Hence why reporting users and threads is vital. If User A for example gets 5 reports sent in within 24-48 hours mods will no doubt keep a closer eye on them. If the user is violating the rules or, as Tony said, is showing a specific posting history of nothing but one liners than they're much more likely to have posts deleted or be warned about it. Or if you see the entire thread is full of nothing but one liners and lists then report the thread. Just click on one of the offending users and say you're reporting the entire thread in the report you send. Mods check out every report I would assume. So if you report it someone will at least give the thread/poster a check.

Which is why I suggested mods every so often just putting out a more general thread wide warning in the case of multiple users posting nothing but one liners with no discussion what so ever. Much easier and more feasible to do that than warn every single user. And in many, not all but many, cases a mod warning in the thread gets discussion back on track. For a time anyways. But that's really something the mods would consider themselves on a case by case basis. Sometimes you gotta let small things slide and focus on more serious ones.
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