Forum - View topicANNCast - The League of Extraordinary Supernerds
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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I think that you should always support qaulity releases of shows you love. that is why we say on my groups relases support the official release if it becomes purchasable in your region. the in your region part is one of three differences between official releases and fan subs. number 1 is the obvious distro/ price differences. the second is that official releases are normally limited to the USA. a majority of the downloads are in Europe or the rest of the world. so you have the problem of enforcing a US liscense in a place that is going to get released in there region (example: case closed). Third I LOVE working on Kindaichi shonen no jikembo (anime), and the Tantei Gakuen Q (manga) but guess what I am in a VERY VERY small minority. these series will never get a US release. the mangaka's first US release of kindaichi case files (kindaichi shonen no jikembo) pretty much Bombed in the us like all but the detective conan (case closed) manga. now there are five rules to how to treat and do fan subs.
5 rules to fansub/ scantalations Rule 1 never do something that is officially licensed in the US Rule 2 Support all official uncut releases when they are released in your region, aka don't abuse the subtitles they are not a offical release Rule 3 encourage others to check out the show legally if possible and get them to support the official releases if they are liscensed in your region Rule 4 DON'T POST fan subs on sites! Rule 5 If the show is licensed in your region DON'T TELL THE MANGAKA that you are illegally watching/reading THEIR show. rule 4 means do not take it upon yourself to upload stuff to onemanga, youtube, or any other site. so many fans who never buy anime or manga read/watch what they do because it easy to find, free, and enjoyable to them. make them actually do some "work" to read manga or watch anime and 9/10 they will actually buy the dvds. the other 1/10 the person probably did not actually like the series. I am serious remove the onemangas, and the onepieceofbleachs and you will have a VERY VERY significant drop in actual piracy. because fansubs are kinda like 4-chan, the actual site/fansubs are not the problem it is the people who use it. you guys HIT IT ON THE HEAD with the lack of roadblocks to anime now a days. people need to actually put sometime to get a fan sub I think now a days, instead of just going to these mega anime streaming sites. the other big thing is NO ONE BUYS A SHOW BLIND. if you make it like the industry is starting to with streaming show is a great way to get people to buy shows, because I know I have bought shows because I saw it on funimation.com/video and then bought it. I agree there is a big portion of people who just watch anime to past the time. also I enjoy and get satisfaction from fan subbing. I do enjoy creating subs (yes I specifically used creating). I love anime and the authors work. I have thought of my own manga that me and my cousin might submit to yen press called deaf beats. and I do not support stealing authors content however if there is no option for people to see it any other way then, I don't see a problem with it if they still make no money off the work. the key is there is NO OTHER option (IE NOT Black Buttler) |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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no everyone goes to mega fansub download sites, I can tell you no one uses irc to download because it fails so often |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Really appreciated this interview, and I believe it's a great resouce on the level of Erica Friedman's Fan Delusion article http://okazu.blogspot.com/2009/03/fandom-fan-delusion-and-what-fans.html and http://www.mangablog.net/?p=7492 Jake Forbe's Manga is Broken.
Also thanks for using my questions- for the curious, in regards to them- -CRoll- I don't really have as much of an issue with CR nowadays, though last week's cast did irk me which lead to that question. I think you guys addressed a lot of the mixed emotions and issues people had with their path to success. -Fans-- yeah, it's a mixed bag, and I think you guys got every corner of this issue well..... in my own case, I think most people are fans, but I have a real hard time with identifying people like those in the Black Butler thread as fans. They're the fans no artist really ever needs or wants. I hope everyone's listening to this, as it's all very useful, truthful information, and will hopefully help us to build a better, more fun, less shouty fandom.
Kids, listen to the podcast and don't end up like this 0_o Cartoonists need you to support their work, so be sure to support them and not turn into one of those hateful fans barking at the Black Butler creator cause she asked them not to steal her stuff. |
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CG-LOVER
 Posts: 355 Location: East Lansing, MI |
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Boy oh boy this episode's podcast was way better than I could've ever imagined!
Let's just start with the first segment, when you guys discussed the problems the animators are facing in Japan I was actually a little surprised. Well not surprised that the people there don't make much, I knew that of course. But then you guys got really specific about the problems they're facing, and now I'm hearing the the government is going to have to step in. This issue is way worse than I thought. And all of that ties in very well with the second segment where your discussion really impressed me. I mean at first I read the description and thought "oh great another episode on piracy  ", but then the discussion itself was more about the mentality about these people who disrespect creators through their actions. The many theories you all presented were well thought out and intriguing. You really did a great job explaining why some people have these beliefs that seem so misguided to any person with common sense (which a lot of people seem to be lacking right now).
I think I may have said this before but I still kind of feel that Zac's sympathy for these people is unwarranted. I mean a lack of money still is no excuse unfortunately. But thinking through this further, all of you guys did talk a lot about how similar you were to these people when you were their age. And quite frankly this sounds mostly like an age problem to me. I think that people in the younger age group just aren't educated about the problems the industry faces. The issue is that this is the same demographic that cares most about anime. So I feel that as they age they will learn that what they've been doing is wrong, but it will be far too late. Teaching people about these consequences sooner is what needs to be done. As far as the other theories for this behavior, the escapism theory is very interesting and might be possible. It would also be probably something that these people feel subconsciously and don't recognize on the surface. This can explain the anger portion of how these people act. As you said there is a sense of ownership on their end, where they fail to see that the creators really own this. They seem to think that this was created for the fans; that it was created for them only. The "Blue collar Hollywood" theory is also another one of my favorites, and it really does reveal how uneducated about all this we are. Like I said in the beginning, I didn't understand how bad the situation truly was, and despite those in the industry being in show business they really don't make a lot of money in the end. The idea of roadblocks is then another great observation and I totally agree. When there's nothing to stop them from doing it, because it's just so easy why not do it? You guys hit the nail on the head when it was said that the industry here was very much established by fans who pirate, making the base of the industry not a very sturdy one. I don't know whether the "barn doors" can be closed or not, but as you guys discussed streaming online may be a determining factor. But good god, there is still no way to make a substantial amount of money off of this which doesn't make the situation that much better. I must say that I do absolutely love the fact that Zac brought up the classic excuse for pirating, which is that they bring attention to anime. And I also love that you guys pointed out the clear flaws with that, because frankly that's one of the biggest excuses there are for pirating and I in no way think it justifies their actions. It's unfortunate that these problems exist, but based on what I've heard so far I'm not exactly sure that there are and real effective solutions for rectifying the problem. I mean a reality show? Clearly this is a hard issue to figure out and I personally have no idea what to do. Those are my thoughts on the first half of the podcast. Now to listen to the second half. |
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tuxedocat
 Posts: 2183 |
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I wish you would give us a sample of some of those "reasons", since I don't understand what you are talking about. As for me personally, I use my mouse to point and click at whatever legal video stream on ANN I want to watch, and then it plays. Easey peasey. YAY! 
Are you talking about a world without ..... economics?
Forcing others to "be original" is a problem, I guess.....
Using that logic, we would have had every software company giving us stuff like Windows Vista, and every media company producing the same type of reality show. Uh, wait... 
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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Haven't heard of anyone taking a stand with Nintendo, I have just heard of the wearyness of people to develop for the DS over the piracy issues. I suspected that the PSP is in the same boat but worse just because it's relatively easy to download things than a console. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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First, my apologies for the "IP" comment. I hate that term. Should have just kept my mouth shut and stuck to point, which I'll do now.
It was an analogy. 
So the way anime is made pretty much meets how I thought it was made. However, please read the numbers again, Justin. If the cost of anime is $5.2M for 26 eps and it returns (avg) of $8.8M.... how the hell can this be considered a loss??? This is what I don't get. It's the same reason that 2009 Jetro report sucks ass, because it clearly shows revenues are being made. My math isn't so bad as to see a larger amount that exceeds a smaller amount indicates a return of investment. What it does say, is that some titles are doing better than others, and this is not a problem! It's competition! I truly don't believe every title makes $8.8M (causing a loss) but can this really be blamed on piracy??? I'm really trying to understand how one side is saying "Help us!" when another is showing "Hey, look how much revenue has been made which exceeds the cost of production on average". And so far, I'm finding it incredibly difficult.
This is not about "information wants to be free", so let's get this off the table right now. This is about using economics to provide people a salary to eat.
I disagree and believe people are hung up on treating these two things as separate. They're the same thing! The problem is: anime doesn't have enough products to sell but they have the largest ad collection that's tied up under red tape. Piracy sites figured this out years ago. It's difficult to provide an answer to the incentive question when the system that's in dire need of revenue absolutely refuses to listen to the answer. One thing is crystal clear though: I don't think my $2000 is going back to the industry. I truly believe it's being wasted on expenditures which have nothing to do with anime production. This is backed up when $1.92Billion doesn't seem to be covering the expenses of every anime produced even if every production had 26 episodes. My brain hurts trying to do the math to justify a reasonable answer to the "incentive question".
I'm not sure why you put "morals" in quotes. Justin, art will continue to be made even if every movie studio, anime studio, music studio, and publisher goes up in smoke tomorrow. I can attest the internet is completely filled with: -movies made by people who didn't use a movie studio to make it. -music made by people who didn't use a record label to make it. -stories written by people who didn't use a publisher to publish it. -photographs by people who really know how to use a camera. -digital art that makes me sick at my own lack of skills (and why I'm learning). This list, obviously, isn't limited to the above, but each can be found on the internet. All of it is absolutely free to view. Go look. I'll wait. 
There are some out there who are hoping to monetize their creation, but then completely skew economics in expecting people pay over and over and over for the same content. If creations are, indeed, "intellectual property", then how is it possible to sell the same creation to so many people? If I have a table, I can only sell it once. I do not have control over the table once I sell it. It is no longer mine when I sell it. However, this is not the world the entertainment industry lives with. Technology has allowed for the reproduction of work where at one point in time, a painter could only sell one product, a musician could only sell a limited number of tickets to a concert, a writer's work was subject to demographic restrictions, and an artist was always work for hire. Now, reproduction has allowed all these old rules, once necessary under copyright, to be applied to economic law which simply can not support it. Failure is inevitable if change is not implemented and putting the responsibility of change on the consumer is wrong. I just don't understand why this is challenged. |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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It's over people. You've lost. You cannot sell the table you built more than once, yet you can sell multiple copies of a DVD/CD/book, therefore IP is bunk. Quod erat demonstratum. I mean if it were possible to sell multiple copies of plans showing how to build that table, then maybe there could be such a thing as IP... And to take a page from your style of quoting:
Exactly. Last edited by hissatsu01 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Because you're not comparing like numbers. The $8.8M average is total revenue on everything, including toys and games and the like, and if you're to calculate a profit or loss there, you need to factor in additional expenses such as design of toys, apparel and video games, manufacturing costs, etc. The $5.2M is *ONLY* for the production of the anime itself, not any of the other revenue-driving stuff around it. The JETRO figure does not address how much revenue is being made from just the anime itself. As we all know, however, not every anime lends itself to that kind of merchandise. But that's a large part of the reason why giant Shonen Jump merch-fests are still being made, and the companies that make them are doing better.
It's definitely true that more obscure stuff will always have a harder time making money, since secondary means of income are less possible. But if we're to continue having them (as I, and I'm sure most anime fans want) someone has to support them in some form.
Because you seemingly have your mind made up about that.
Hey, I'm all for supporting indie artists. I buy music from indie bands whenever possible, I always buy indie films and pay my shareware fees. But certain things, such as larger-scale non-talky movies and animation, are ambitious enough where they require a corporate framework, and there's just no way around that. But as for those indie projects you point to? The ones that are given away for free on the internet? They're made at a loss, and with the big endeavors like film, they usually bankrupt people. Happens all the time. They're made in the hopes of someone eventually paying them to do something else within the system you hate. They're usually released online once they've given up on recouping their investment. So holding them up as proof that the "give shit away for free" model works is disingenuous or ignorant; they're really proof of nothing beyond dreams and/or desperation. |
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LavenderAna
 Posts: 20 |
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For some reason I can't access this week's episode. It won't play on the player (I've tried on two different computers), and it won't download for me on iTunes. Don't know if I'm the only one having this problem. I can't wait to hear the show, though; this week's sounds like a really good one!
EDIT: Never mind, finally got it on iTunes
Last edited by LavenderAna on Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CG-LOVER
Posts: 355 Location: East Lansing, MI |
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I like you. You just pretty much summed up the way I feel as well. I agree 100%!
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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my rule is $2 an episode, however I have been buying everything from NIS so.... |
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Takeyo
 Posts: 736 |
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Awesome episode. I feel bad for whoever next week's guest will be for having to follow this ANNcast.
We both know that's not true. While people who turn to IRC for fansub downloads are no doubt in the minority, they are a constant presence in the IRC channels. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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oh they are there in the big groups waiting for releases but go to a small or normal sized one and you will find they only come when a release is done |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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My apologies. There are two sets of data. Let's ditch the Jetro report. The $8.8M avg came from this research report. Can we confirm this is just about the revenues anime production produced?
I just don't see how this is possible. I know people are going to say "stop pirating", but this still doesn't cover the revenue drop accurately when ikillchicken's graph shows the primary decline is coming from anime on the air. This makes sense given TV ad revenue has dropped as well. But if we look at the "other" on the graph, it's still pretty stable. These numbers can't be telling a different picture. If TV anime can't pay for itself, and the graph shows it dropping, how is this even related to piracy? It's free as well! I'll retain the merchandise aspect as I'm still looking for backup on its influence to finance anime.
It was a statement made out of frustration.
There is, but that corporate framework needs to be removed.
The bankruptcy comes when the avenues to distribute are closed to them and please don't tell me this is because there's no corporate backing. It's the corporations blocking access. Even though DVD prices are dropping, theater revenues are increasing and when a movie like The Blair Witch Project can come along and make millions the movie industry loses to via competition, there's no way they're going to allow the cinema chain to grant them release access. That's why indie movies are shown on limited screens, usually by privately owned theaters.
Addressed above.
Now, not sure how many of my posts of mine you read, but just in case you missed it: I do not support the give it away for free and pray model. Even with my "piracy site" example, one can clearly see the business model is wrapped around the free. People who make art and want to market their creations do not understand this concept, and yes, you're absolutely right to say their ideology of using the web to run a business is ignorant. Especially when one can't monetize the internet (I say this alot too). But there are ways to wrap a good business model online while giving the content away for free. ANN does it daily. It's not millionaire-making, obviously, but it doesn't have to be. If the goal is to provide a reasonable source of income, it's very possible. It's doable. If one has a head for business. That's why my statement was made out of frustration. I don't believe those who are trying to earn revenue from anime have a head for business.
You're still not selling the same DVD/CD/Book to multiple people. Each is, in context, their own table. I should point out it's the idea selling the property. What a concept!
Allow me to put this in perspective so even you can't screw it up: "Feed a man a fish, he eats for a day. A man is taught to fish, but starves to death because every method of casting are ideas protected by law which require him to pay to use." Unless, that is, he takes the illegal action of cannibalism. |
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