Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - Portmanteau-Related Tomfooligans
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Flattery will get you everywhere. Especially when you tell ANN's resident RahXephon fanatic that you loved the show. +350 brownie points for you. (Believe me, that's a lot.) |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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This analogy makes absolutely no sense. It's not even a remotely similar situation. Anyone who thinks they're more likely to find love by going to a prostitute is an idiot. On the other hand, you're clearly a lot more open to checking out a show if it's free where as you would be a lot less likely to buy it right off the bat. There's also no beneficiary in the prostitute scenario. Nobody benefits but you and I guess the prostitute. It would be equivalent to piracy that benefits you and the person making pirated content available. That ignores the whole point of what I'm saying though which is that in this scenario it may help the industry. There is no element analogous to the industry in your example so of course the potential justification doesn't apply.
You're right. All those pirates need to stop sucking up our tax dollars! Except they don't actually do that. Once again, this analogy makes no sense. All you're doing is tossing out unrelated instances of people making excuses and then picking them apart. That's fine for those instances but there's no logical basis to extend it to other cases just because the excuse is similar. The validity of an justification may vary depending on what it is used to justify. So let me ask again: Explain why is it that piracy in this scenario (not drugs, not prostitution, piracy) is not acceptable?
Surely though there are enough leeches out there to support these pirate sites on their own. Even if all the potentially justified pirates stopped pirating it's not like pirate sites would disappear so what does it matter? |
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roxybudgy
Posts: 129 Location: Western Australia |
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And I'm betting that if that leech were to suddenly find themselves unable to download any anime at all, they would go download music, or go play a computer game, rather than rush off to the nearest DVD store to buy anime. I just don't get why some people still insist that every epiode download = lost sale. As for myself, I've done it all: download anime and manga, buy anime and manga, and translate for fansub/scanlation groups. I don't make excuses for downloading, I do it because I can and because I want to (as long as I'm not going to be arrested for it, I'll keep doing it). I buy DVDs as long as I have money and as long as the series I want to buy is available (because I like the series and want it for my collection, which I have to date poured thousands of dollars into, and none of that 'Support the Industry!' crap), and I translated because I love a particular series and want to share it with others. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Such a release system was tested, but near-simultaneous release wasn't achieved in all the countries for which it was planned. Whilst an R4 simulcast was set up by Madman, Funimation's U-turn on their previous licensing arrangement left the UK without the series until Manga obtained the rights. (Funi fully intended this regional lock to be temporary, though today only their parts of their YouTube portal have been unlocked over here.) Once the Funi stream became blocked, Most of my local online friends who took an interest in the series resorted to using other means until normal service resumed.
We act as much as we can, but resources are limited by smaller population figures (inter alia). To boldly claim that more is possible seems somewhat quixotic, and dare I say indicative of a lack of personal experience with small regions.
If the term "excuse" is being used in an exclusively legal sense, I have no reason to disagree with this comment. Though I have no background in the subject, I nonetheless remain unconvinced by the tenability of this statement if the relevant terms are construed wholly economically, particularly in view of ikillchicken's first response to you. |
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aeris2001x2
Posts: 64 |
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One Piece has not been licensed in the UK so it is currently not possible to watch One Piece legally in the UK. DVD, simulcast, crunchy roll, all unavailable. How many years can one be expected to wait for a show? Thank god for fan subs. And even if I was prepared to wait there is no guarantee it would ever get here. Dragon Ball Z is still NOT LICENSED in the UK. What the hell is Funimation thinking? I have never known a US licenser company be so US-centric, to not release such a huge title here. My friend loves One Piece but has no intention of buying it. She subscribes to the philosophy that unless it is licensed in the UK it does not exist in the UK. When it comes to the UK she will buy it. I am different and even if One Piece does not get a UK release I will still buy One Piece when Funimation releases it in box set format. And I am buying the dragon ball Z dragon boxes. But the only reason I am buying them is because I saw them first. My conscience is 100% clear as I would not buy an anime or film unless I know it’s good. I used to buy tons of anime back in the day and wasted so much on anime that did not measure up. Through piracy they are actually gaining money from me now. The same thing happened with games, even resident evil 5 and final fantasy XIII let me down, and now I don't buy games anymore. If I could test them first, that would be different. Lastly this is another way I rationalise fan subs. The Anime has already been shown on Japanese TV. So me watching a fan sub is the same as my friend taping the latest episode of Lost and then lending me the tape. Is that wrong? And if anyone says it is, have you never borrowed a show recorded off the TV before? |
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garfield15
 Posts: 1517 |
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I think what we're arguing here is R1 releases. Like, how One Piece has a free legal simulcast in R1 but people still rip the video anyway, same with CR and all that. If you live in the UK or a place where they block or don't release it in that area and you really want to see that show, then I really kind of understand. How else are you supposed to watch the show or read the manga you like? However, if you live in America and still aren't following simulcasts or still don't buy manga when it's released, then that's complete ignorance. |
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vashfanatic
 Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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Well, according to LordWhatsIt, you're supposed to set up your own companies to start simulcasting, or buy everything blind because you "know yourself" well enough to be able to tell which series you want to spend $100+ on. And yes, there are review sites. And if I'd gone strictly on reviews, I might have bought Chrono Crusade, one my most-loathed series of all time, since all the reviews on this site were so positive. In fact, I call my need to watch a series to completion before I buy it "Chrono Crusade" as a result (I hate hate hate hate the ending of that series). If I'd had a streaming option back then, I would've used it, though. Almost everything I watch, save for a few really old series (LotGH and Rose of Versailles), I do through streaming. I actually find it easier than finding and downloading fansubs.
Or, you know, USE YOUR LIBRARY. I have read so much manga through my library, including making purchase requests. Then, once you've read them, decide whether you want your own copy. ... But yeah, the problem with Australia/NZ/UK fans using fansubs to supplement their total lack of streams is that American fans leach off their fansubs when they shouldn't. Jackasses ruin it for everyone, I swear. Is there any way you can region-block downloaders? 
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garfield15
Posts: 1517 |
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Well, not every library has manga or a complete listing of manga(not like I've seen one without it but I'm sure there must be some out there without manga) or sometimes, people steal manga (I work at a library. Yes, people steal manga from a free place) but that's a perfectly viable option as well. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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 Allegedly the studios tried doing that, but apparently it wasn't very successful.
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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I use interlibrary loans a lot, though that can really vary based on the network your library is part of. But it's not an option people always consider, and I really support libraries, so I try to bring it up when I can. 
Used book stores are also awesome. Found a whole bunch of old Five Star Stories issues at mine.
Yeah, that was more of a bitchy grumbling than an actual suggestions. 
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Dtm42 you kinda answered your own complaint as to why they are not releasing to you and to answer your ans Zin5ki points. You have to make the market better for these other companies willing to make the risk to move in, if you are not wiling to take that risk yourself. What does that mean, while yes you buying and watching legal streams in your area is good, but you need to convince others within your area to buy this anime thing too, and perhaps these people in your area are ones that have never heard of anime before. Butinstead of showing them where to get the latest fansub you show them where to get the latest legal stream, you show them where to buy, you get out and talk. If your really confident import a series that isn't available in your area, and show it at cons and to friends and convince them to do the same, why? Each of those actions make them take a serious look at your market, as if there is not enough people buying into anime there despite a perhaps larger group identifying as fan, they will not see them.
As to forming your own company every single distributor started but with one title to sell, and they normally sold that series fairly aggressively. Even if you don't start your own you need that kinda spirit, as it's a numbers game, and you need to make more of them. You have to be a cheerleader of a sort to convince that others should get motivated to go, that you use the power of world of mouth and crank it up to 11, even if the amp only goes to 10. As to the knock to the "know yourself" how do you determine what to watch and buy? You take in themes, stories, genres, artists, studios, directors.. all of those elements and more go into a decision to buy a series. I know of some fans that because x director is involved or y distributor licensed it is reason enough to buy. My brother actually said he used AMVs to determine what to buy as he said he saw clips from a show and not knowing anything about the series beyond it's name in the credits of these AMV's went out and bought them (Azumanga Daioh and Mai-HIME are two that I'm aware of), I myself have purchased a series based on cover and back of box promotion because after reading it, I saw elements within that show that I would like and would appeal to me, without seeing it. That series is considered my number 2 series right now after buying all the singles for it. So yes having some confidence in yourself and knowing what you like can go a long way to cutting a series out or picking one up. And I believe we have had this discussion on Chrno Crusade before but despite your dislike of the ending of it, it is a complete story, with a complete ending and all roles accounted for.. sadly if that is your example of a failed series that is a sad day for stories as it was one that did and had everything a complete story needs, yes even it's ending. Especially when you consider this as the objective statement spoiler[ The story of Sister Rosette and Chrono of how they faced evil and suffering in their lives and how they failed.] I think that has been explained to you before.... (Note that is the anime series objective it may not be the manga's.) |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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On the actual "where do you draw the line" fansub question, which is along the lines of what a fan should do rather than along the lines of what the industry should do, two clear lines are not when there is a legit distribution available, and not at any ad-supported site.
An advantage of simple, clear lines is that if the line is fuzzy, its easy to pass across it in small steps, with an excuse for each step. With simple, clear lines, its either yes or no. Is licensed, is available somehow, then the decision is whether its available on terms that are worth it? If not, watch something else. If not licensed, unavailable in my region, I get it from a source that does not finance the bootlegging industry? If not, watch something else. Obviously, what lines to draw where is a personal choice of the individual fan, and indeed whether or not to be a supporting fan is a personal choice, but those are two fairly simple and clear ones that do not require in depth info and analysis to see that adopting them generally helps the industry. |
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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No, no, no. One must not simply learn mind control to get lots of people to buy expensive products sight-unseen. You're not going far enough! One must also learn mind control to get companies to start streaming and licensing in these other regions. That is the most logical option! Not making do with a bad system whilst doing all one personally can to support the local market. You need to magically make others do the same thing!
ROFLMAO. Okay, I am starting to suspect you are a troll creating a straw anti-fansubs person for us to argue against.
Yeah, I bought Jin Roh and Millennium Actress based just on the writers/directors, true. But I got them used, and they were movies, and they were cheap. That's not much of an investment compared to a TV series that goes sour.
Because AMVs in no way violate copyright at all... 
Because covers, trailers, and promotional material never (1) misrepresent the product or (2) not tell you how the story ends. Speaking of which...
Oh yeah, it's a "complete story, with a complete ending"... sort of. In that it takes its strong female lead,spoiler[ turns her into a brainless pawn of evil], has a horribly anticlimactic final battle, and an ending which ultimately says that everything that happened in the entire series was completely meaningless, because no matter how much you fight the forces of evil, spoiler[God is a dick who will just bring villains back from the dead for no apparent reason.] It spits on its characters, it spits on its own conflict, it spits on its audience for caring. And no, I hadn't even read the manga when I saw the anime. I hated it on its own monstrous merits. It's a sad day for good stories when that kind of thing is considered "everything a complete story needs." True, that's just "my opinion"... but if I'd bought the whole series in singles up to that point and watched the ending, having wasted that much money on a show whose ending I personally find to be a complete insult to the story, which started out so strongly...I'd be a hundred times angrier with the series and a hundred times more likely to never buy a TV series again without seeing the end of it. But seriously, your writing is so scattered, your ideas so simplistic and naive, you're either a troll or a twelve-year old. |
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garfield15
Posts: 1517 |
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^^You should totally read the manga though.
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vashfanatic
Posts: 3489 Location: Back stateside |
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I did, I own it, I love it! It's not a grand masterpiece, but it is immensely superior to the anime, with a "complete story" that also has a great ending, as big a tearjerker as the anime without the disrespectful nihilism. Agila61: That's not a bad rule, and I follow it for recent stuff. Of course, I live in the US, and now that Funimation streams noitaminA, most of what I want to watch every season is available for me to watch legally. I don't know what it would take to get a similar deal made outside of North America, but I hope that fans and the industry can figure it out and get something done. But when I look at Rose of Versailles and Legends of the Galactic Heroes, 30 and 20 years old respectively, with no signs of being licensed or even put up online...? The only way you can actually draw attention to these old series that need the love, that deserve a legal release, is to turn people to fansubs simply to raise some awareness of their very existence. That's what Brian is saying the positive side of fansubs can be, not even as a way of previewing a series before you buy it (there are always libraries and rental services too, plus borrowing from friends, and on and on, which should be exhausted first) but as ways of spreading the word on the non-Naruto series out there. If fansubbers could focus on THAT, the industry wouldn't be after them. I know my posts may be giving off some weird mixed messages, which happens when I'm arguing against someone just because their arguments are wrong, and when I'm talking about series that happened years ago vs. are ongoing right now. My opinion has changed over the years, but here's my handy-dandy guide to the responsible use of fansubs: When you consider watching a series... 1) Is is available in my region? 1a) If so, exhaust every possible way of being able to watch it legally, including renting, checking it out of the library, borrowing from friends, and streaming. 2) If it's not available in your region, how likely is it that it will be available in the future? 2a) If all it takes is waiting a year or two longer than the rest of the world, consider waiting. 3) If something isn't available in your region, has little chance of being licensed or has been a good decade without signs of being licensed, is it worth getting in fansubs? i.e. is it really something you want to see that badly? At least half of all anime really isn't worth watching, if we're honest with ourselves. 4) If you do want to watch it badly, it isn't available, and shows no signs of becoming available, and you've even signed the online petition, then consider getting fansubs. Try to get them from groups that follow these rules (rather than ones who release licensed material), try to use direct downloads rather than bittorrents (they make you a distributor), don't keep anything you wouldn't buy if it became available, and above all DON'T CONTINUE DISTRIBUTION IF IT DOES BECOME AVAILABLE!! Last edited by vashfanatic on Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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