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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:39 am Reply with quote
Personally, I don't view an anti-soapboxing rule as having a lot of validity. Rather than encourage discussion it stifles it. But if you are going to have this rule don't have the moderators half-way pursuing discussion by issuing their own opinion on the subject presented (either for or against).
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: Coon Rapids, MN

PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:52 am Reply with quote
It encourages the original discussion of the thread, which is the intention. It keeps people from taking a thread and twisting it into a thread that about them and their views which was becoming enough of a constant problem that action had to be taken. We're generally pretty lenient in regards to the rule, but if soapboxing becomes enough of a problem where it's generating too much noise and drowning out the threads original topic and generating complaints, then we act.

As for "half-way pursuing discussion" bit, I guess I was guilty of that, but since you were still allowed to keep your soapbox rant it's not all that unfair to at least allow a minor response (a couple words in this case). Otherwise people could simply soapbox and then no one would be allowed to respond, and they get a free rant without any chance of anyone questioning it. I suppose I could just remove the posts in the future, but I personally don't like doing that. Regardless, I will simply avoid commentary in the future and allow the offending posts to stand based on the level of discussion that has taken place to that point.
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:27 am Reply with quote
Probably going to get some flak for this, but exactly what is soapboxing?

A clear definition might help the situation. Because if something isn't "allowed" then it makes people want to do even more.
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:04 pm Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
Probably going to get some flak for this, but exactly what is soapboxing?

Why would you get flak for asking a question?

Soapboxing is stating the same thing over and over in as many threads as possible (or even within the same thread) and offers nothing to the discussion.

An example of this: Sentai Filmworks announces a new license, and someone posts "If they don't dub, I don't buy." and leaves having done this to 12 other threads before it.

I should point out if one is repeating a message they've stated before in a new conversation, as long as it pertains to the discussion, it isn't considered soapboxing.

The mods have been pretty good about this, so don't worry about the rule too much if you feel you've said something before.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:48 pm Reply with quote
Thought that my reply to your post in the thread was best made here, Keonyn. I want to make it clear that I'm not against forum moderators or anything. I've been one myself. I've hosted, etc. as well, here's my reply that I deleted from the thread to put here...

Quote:

I've got that Keonyn but in this world everything is related. I mean, after all, the initial article was (partially) about Anime Economics and about the model that's being used and what it means to animators/licensors/etc. I think at some point that yes we divert into stuff that doesn't apply, and that's why I think an off topic section is appropriate. I think this is the only forum I've seen which doesn't have one.

That's not to say there is only one right way to do things, but I'd at least say to give it a try. If the concern is "too much traffic" you may be right. I have noticed it's slow posting here sometimes and so maybe you do want to limit posting and encourage more reading of the articles.
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abunai
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:50 pm Reply with quote
We do have a few experiences with users with one track minds. People who can turn a thread on anything into yet another chance to revisit their obsession.

- Thread on hamburgers in anime? Oh no, it's now about sub vs. dub.
- Thread on Berserk? Oh no, it's now about moe.
- Thread on computer hacking in anime? Oh no, now it's about U.S. politics.

You get the idea.

Obviously, such behaviour is disruptive, and we could just remove those posts as off-topic and disruptive. However, since the behaviour has certain, shall we say, consistent properties, we introduced the "no soapboxing" rule to specifically address it.

There are a handful of topics which regularly get taken up and used for soapboxing, and we keep a special eye on anything that might trigger a screed on those subjects.

- abunai
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:04 pm Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
Probably going to get some flak for this, but exactly what is soapboxing?

A clear definition might help the situation. Because if something isn't "allowed" then it makes people want to do even more.


Well, I think the definition is clear enough (caring about something strongly enough that a person talks about the issue all the time), but I only think that soapboxing is problematic in cases where
1) The soapbox issue clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the initial discussion.
2) The discussion comes to have nothing to do with the original (splitting thread I think is appropriate here, so not a "problem" per se in many forums)
3) The person never replies to another persons reasoning so they constantly say the same things over and over (making actual discussion useless)
4) The discussion goes in a circle due to arguing the same points over again due to repeating of the argument.

I'll leave threads on my own if it gets to that point. It's not like I have interest repeating myself. In fact, my hands are crappy, they hurt from typing most of the time. If I'm posting it's because I hope that something is getting across. I realize that people don't usually change their minds during debates but the weight of arguments does affect people over time.

I've changed my position to being against recent wars (Afghanistan, Iraq) because of arguments like this. I've changed my position on so many economic matters as well.

Abunai wrote:

We do have a few experiences with users with one track minds. People who can turn a thread on anything into yet another chance to revisit their obsession.

Well, I think you have to consider why people have "one track minds" and also what their discussion yields. If they don't interest other people in talking (annoy people, shut discussion down, etc.), then I think it's negative.

If they lead only to hatred, also not a good thing. I don't think we were close to that point in the previous thread. I think I was the only one being marginalized (and I expect this, I know I have radical views).

I also don't talk in most threads unless I have something to say. My post count is high because of years of being around and that my particular issue is one that's been relevant to a lot of threads in that timespan. I don't think I've brought my viewpoint into threads where it was totally unrelated, and if I have I apologize for that and will avoid it.

If you met me in real life you'd know I'm a person who talks a lot about things I care about, but as a rule I don't talk... at all. I dislike small talk. I don't like discussing the weather. I'm a lot more interested in ideas, so I tend to talk about ideas.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:42 pm Reply with quote
Well, we do have an Off-Topic section, but it's subscriber only. We have to offer some perks to motivate people to want to support the site, so that is why it was done in that fashion.

As for the definition of soapboxing, it's a difficult matter to pin down specifically. There are obvious instances, like everyones favorite poster beginning with a G that will take any mention of any American studio or film as a chance to rant about how everybody is ripping off anime and then cite a number of ludicrous comparisons if you're lucky, but usually he sticks to baseless accusations. Then you get the ones that require a judgement call, and usually I'll simply warn those if we start getting complaints.
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:35 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
Probably going to get some flak for this, but exactly what is soapboxing?

Why would you get flak for asking a question?

Soapboxing is stating the same thing over and over in as many threads as possible (or even within the same thread) and offers nothing to the discussion.

An example of this: Sentai Filmworks announces a new license, and someone posts "If they don't dub, I don't buy." and leaves having done this to 12 other threads before it.

I should point out if one is repeating a message they've stated before in a new conversation, as long as it pertains to the discussion, it isn't considered soap boxing.

The mods have been pretty good about this, so don't worry about the rule too much if you feel you've said something before.


I am not saying names at all (that includes anyone) but I've noticed some people go ape about anything and everything.

Anyway to be fair, I don't think that can really be called soap boxing if done politely. Now if a person is blatantly rude, I think that is more soap boxing.
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abunai
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:50 am Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
Anyway to be fair, I don't think that can really be called soap boxing if done politely. Now if a person is blatantly rude, I think that is more soap boxing.

Blatant rudeness is a different issue, and will always garner moderator attention.

Soapboxing can be polite as you please -- but if the same person is saying the same things over and over again, and clearly not listening to input from others, we'll consider it soapboxing and put a stop to it.

A discussion is supposed to be a meeting of minds. You listen to your opponent, and attempt to grasp his viewpoint. In the end, you may find that his arguments are weak, and decide not to budge from your original position, or you may see some merit in them, and seek a compromise position -- but not listening means not discussing, and that's not what the forums are for. If we become convinced that you're holding a monologue, and not engaging in a dialogue, we'll stick a dunce cap on your head and make you stand outside the door. That'll learn ya.

- abunai
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:05 pm Reply with quote
The best example I can give about soap-boxing is a particular reader of ours who dislikes certain directors.

Everytime any article appeared about those directors this reader would show up and repeat the exact same criticism of those directors. He was usually one of the first persons to post in the talkback thread, and his post rarely had anything to do with the actual content of the article. (To his credit, I've discussed this issue with this particular reader and he has since stopped doing it).

For Example:

News: Mr. X a guest at Otakon
Soapboxer: I hate Mr. X because he totally destroyed Anime Z.

News: Mr. X to direct Anime R
Soapboxer: I hate Mr. X because he totally destroyed Anime Z.

News: Mr. X does cartoon for Product P
Soapboxer: I hate Mr. X because he totally destroyed Anime Z.

News: Mr. X talks about his dog
Soapboxer: I hate Mr. X because he totally destroyed Anime Z.

News: Mr. X comments on someone else's anime.
Soapboxer: I hate Mr. X because he totally destroyed Anime Z.


To make it clear, "Soapboxer" has perfectly good criticisms of Mr. X, but we're tired of hearing them in every talkback thread about Mr. X.

Likewise all the people who have a particular complaint about a particular company (for example it doesn't dub). We (and most other people here) are tired of hearing those complaints in every thread about that particular company.

-t
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:18 pm Reply with quote
I've got this, but one thing did come up here and... despite my "radical" nature I've got to question whether Keonyn is saying that I don't hold dialog. I may well espouse "weird" views, but I try my best in every thread to give a reply to the points made by others.

Certainly my replies may not be convincing, but I think we all know the "convince a man against his will.." thing. And yeah, I know that probably everyone here thinks that I'm just wrong about this stuff too Smile. I do still try, because these issues are important to me (and it's not because I just want to get away with "stealing" stuff, I buy more anime than most and I buy movies/American TV I like as well).

I also think I've been pretty good in the past about toning down conversations if moderators asked, and it's not the toning down request itself that I felt problematic here. What was annoying was being told to stop, then being told my position was absolutely wrong (in a matter of fact way, without any argument), and then getting some argument but feeling like I couldn't actually reply to it.
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Keonyn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:24 pm Reply with quote
Well, I already stated I was wrong to do so and stated I would not do so again, besides, I still allowed you to counter my comments rather than simply remove the response due to the warning. Besides, holding dialog is not the issue, in fact it's that holding dialog that becomes an issue when it begins to drown out the conversations that are more directly relevant to the threads topic. It's still a thread about an article, not a thread about you and your stance on copyright laws, which I have to say you've made abundantly clear to us all over and over again in the past.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2055

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:06 pm Reply with quote
No problem. I was just seeking clarification on the latter points that were made and to make sure that this isn't something that I was seen as doing.

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you as a moderator. I'm self conscious and questioning if that's the way I am perceived to be. I say this because you aren't the only moderator who went to the thread. It's silly of me to say this but I have some respect for Key (because of his reviews and opinions on anime of all things lol) so to have him immediately also tell me that he was going to shut me down made that situation doubly frustrating.

I do get that a lot of people don't care about my position, which is why I don't post a lot unless people on the other end are also interested in posting most of the time.

But it's been a few months, so please forgive my excesses on posting on something for which I have a strong desire to change things.

This is hardly my one issue in life either but it's the only one that's rarely relevant here at all. I'm against that sort of intervention in general. I'm a libertarian by nature, so anti-drug laws, gambling laws, price controls, regulations, etc. are also pet peeves (and I don't use drugs or have any interest!) I'll admit that I view fansubs, but I also buy what I download. I use Linux and free software wherever possible, etc.
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Psycho 101
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:10 am Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
No problem. I was just seeking clarification on the latter points that were made and to make sure that this isn't something that I was seen as doing.

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you as a moderator. I'm self conscious and questioning if that's the way I am perceived to be. I say this because you aren't the only moderator who went to the thread.

I feel compelled to just point out one thing. Don't take this as an attack on you, I just want to share something I've learned through experience. The moderators do enforce the same rules, that is true. However I can tell you from personal experience, some good and some bad heh, that there is no set in stone way to enforce the rules. It is up to the discretion of the mods so often you might have multiple mods in a thread and get completely different responses. Tempest more or less gives them free reign to handle things in their own way as they see fit. I know for a fact he trusts them otherwise they would not be mods at this site. So just keep in mind that Moderator A may not think a particular thread or post has violated a rule while Moderator B may feel differently. With that in mind don't feel it's personal if one moderator doesn't do something while another does. Or vice versa. It's just their different personalities dictating how they go about moderating the place.
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