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Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 1067

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:32 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Lord Geo wrote:
Like I said, according to Zac and Brian the idea of an anime buyer who just likes to watch older anime doesn't exist.



Yeah OK there are some newer fans who like the older stuff but claiming that the generalization that mostly older fans gravitate toward the stuff from the 80s and that older shows have a smaller audience and don't sell as well as newer shows is somehow INCORRECT because you exist is stupid.

You're part of a small minority not represented by the generalization we were making.


Now now, Zac, I never said that you were incorrect. I just pointed out that there are people who are willing to buy and watch older anime who are not necessarily the "bearded old men". Much like you said we are a minority, but it is a minority worth mentioning, even if it's on the side.

I'm not disagreeing with your comment, I'm just adding to it in a slightly sarcastic way by saying that we don't exist simply because you didn't mention us, kind of like how you can be sarcastic at times. You don't have to take offense to it, as I'm not here to bring about controversy or complaining, but if you're going to ignore a a group which can be mentioned in two seconds, and still prove your point with it, just so you could make a silly joke (or hell, even make second joke from that other group), well I personally will just point it out.

It just so happens that I tend to be a part of that minority that no one wants to talk about, so I can't help it if I feel the group I tend be a part of is ignored in conversation. Like TokyoPop's reps said when I asked about B't X in their first "webinar", I'm one of the "8 people who actually bought B't X" when TokyoPop was releasing the manga. Yeah, now that's a minority! And, lo and behold, it's a minority that's being listened to.
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 412
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:47 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Swissman wrote:
regardless of its age and Bubblegum Crisis has one of the best anime soundtracks from these years (I know what I'm talking about, I'm a rabid OST collector and own more than 250 soundtracks Wink


Boy you'd think taste in music was subjective but I guess it isn't!

Yeah, I'm perfect, I know, but so can you! Just continue to further educate your tastes in anime and music and one day you'll reach master level too! Cool (but don't be surprised when some new kid on the block will tell you than the thing you happen to like is supposed to be sooo embarrassing, sniff Crying or Very sad )


Smilies, they help you to understand ironic undertones, for real!
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YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 722
Location: New York

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:02 am Reply with quote
Oh boy.

I am not a Panty & Stocking apologist, claiming that you should give it another shot if you dropped it, but it's an immediate watch the moment it's released for me.

I agree that the sex and the poo jokes were not funny in episode 1, and it still is not a South Park type in terms of being smart in crafting humor. Still, what I think I grasp onto is the action, they style, the design, and the wild direction.

It's absolutely below Gainax' best, but it's not Dead Leaves either.


Zac with Square Enix practically failing with Final Fantasy XIII, and then feeding themselves to the wolves with FF XIV, didn't you answer your own question about "Why can't they put out Kingdom Hearts sequels a little faster" Maybe it's best that they wait.
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Anime World Order



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 354
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:03 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
As for other American games, I loved Gears of War and Mass Effect but both had very disappointing sequels.


I will stab a brother in the neck with a butter knife for saying that Mass Effect 2 is a disappointing sequel compared to the first! That's like saying The Empire Strikes Back is a disappointing sequel to Star Wars. I'll leave it at that since otherwise I'll write a book-length on exactly why...and I have OTHER things to write book-length posts about:

I don't think the fan praise for anime games like Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage, Dynasty Warriors Gundam, and Sengoku Basara: Samurai Heroes has anything to do with "lowered expectations" whatsoever, as suggested in this podcast. As Todd duly noted, Japanese gaming developers have lost their reputations as being at the head of the pack, so to speak. They're criticized for not innovating and catering to Japanese gaming tastes which progressively are in direct conflict with the rest of the world. Well, as fate would have it, the poster child for "what's wrong with Japan" as far as videogaming goes is Koei-Tecmo's Warriors series and its direct competitors. Each game is very similar to the last, and the core dynamic is reminiscent of the beat-em-up genre from the 80s and 90s. ANY Dynasty Warriors game gets positively savaged by critics, and the anime-themed spinoffs are not exempt.

I'm not a Dynasty Warriors apologist, having never actually played any of the regular installments. But I do play and enjoy all the anime versions (and also Sengoku Basara, which was a game before it was anime). The reason is not "lowered expectations" due to being a fan of the franchise so much as "shifted." Being a fan of the anime chosen to be made into Dynasty Warriors preemptively implies I have no objection to the oft-cited criticisms of the game formula.

Fist of the North Star is a cartoon where the heroes kill hordes of idiotic, similar-looking bad guys who seriously think they're going to be the ones to prevail after seeing 500 of their colleagues be gruesomely slaughtered. Major battles in Gundam often feature hero units mowing down mass-produced grunts as major characters yell things like "human souls are weighed down by Earth's gravity!" at one another. From the fan point of view, it is therefore not a negative thing for the games to include these things. It's a REQUIREMENT.

So at the end of the day, even though they're not exactly the same genre there's not too much separating Dynasty Warriors from the Scott Pilgrim videogame which revels in its similarities to River City Ransom. Except there isn't a bunch of critics saying "this game sucks! It's just like River City Ransom!" and a bunch of fans saying "this game rules! It's just like River City Ransom!" the way there is with Dynasty Warriors and its ilk.

Charred Knight wrote:
The reason people get into Panty and Stockings is because they talk to themselves into thinking that it's some brilliant attack against moe, and it's not.


I agree with you that it's not an attack against moe. But it's also not directly supporting it either. (I may not be a Dynasty Warriors apologist, but I AM a Panty and Stocking apologist.) The show isn't funny to me, but very little is. What I respect about it is that, more often than not, it's at least trying to do SOMETHING different than other anime. The jokes are not of the standard manzai-inspired format, the soundtrack is probably the best one for a TV show all year, its action direction is pretty damn solid, and so on. It's not funny, but I've watched all of it because it's well-crafted regardless. I respect that.

[Taste In Humor Invalidating Disclaimer: I also consider Achewood to be not funny at all, but I've read it all and continue to do so because it too is doing something different and I respect that it's well-crafted.]

Zac wrote:
Boy you'd think taste in music was subjective but I guess it isn't!


I don't think the responses you're getting are born out of subjectivity differences. I think there are two reasons the forums are giving you guys pushback regarding not liking 80s fare such as Dirty Pair: Project EDEN, Project A-Ko, Bubblegum Crisis, etc and it has less to do with the merits of any individual title and more to do with rejecting the fundamental logic being put forth. An oft-repeated sentiment was "the only reason people liked these shows back then is because they were fine with getting anything." There is certainly truth in that, but it neglects to account for time. Most of the not-particularly-good anime that people consumed "because there was nothing else out there" have more or less disappeared (Outlanders, California Crisis, Yoko Leda, etc) and are unlikely to be brought up or remembered by most fans twenty plus years later.

The second reason is that more often than not, statements like "it's SOOO 70s/80s/etc!" are offered as the reason something's not good without elaborating much further beyond that. I certainly can't disagree with the charge that the titles in question are incredibly indicative of the time in which they were made, but without any further justification saying that is sort of akin to someone saying "man, Casablanca is SOOO 40s! It's all in black and white, and they're smoking cigarettes, and there are Nazis! God, what were moviegoers thinking back then?!"

When I listen to ANNCast, I understand the implications of these statements even if it's not always explicitly put forth. It's that the properties in question are fairly simple as far as their plotting, characterization, humor, and the like are concerned. The presentation of these elements was often a higher priority, but if someone doesn't care for the conventions of the era with regards to presentation, then the existence of those things aren't beneficial. Music, character designs, casting, animation quality, and so on are subsequently viewed as either insignificant or negative. Therefore, the conclusion "this anime really isn't very good" gets made. That's not an automatically bad position to have, but the methodology for it does need to be stated.

Just saying "oh God, the 80s!" then not seeming to know the most basic information about a title such as the often-repeated names of the main characters gives listeners an impression that you didn't really "give it a fair shake." The devil's in the details; in the case of Dirty Pair, a driving point of the series is how much work went into the shots that nobody would bother to do anymore. There's all kinds of little extra touches in the backgrounds that one would be apt to miss if they put on the show and then did housework or browsed the Internet at the same time. (Not saying this is what happened, but it's common among many people I know to watch anime in a window while they do other things, such as play videogames.) Hence, five pages of people saying "what are you guys talking about?!" coupled with "that's just like, my OPINION man" responses.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3022

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:58 pm Reply with quote
Anime World Order wrote:


Charred Knight wrote:
The reason people get into Panty and Stockings is because they talk to themselves into thinking that it's some brilliant attack against moe, and it's not.


I agree with you that it's not an attack against moe. But it's also not directly supporting it either. (I may not be a Dynasty Warriors apologist, but I AM a Panty and Stocking apologist.) The show isn't funny to me, but very little is. What I respect about it is that, more often than not, it's at least trying to do SOMETHING different than other anime. The jokes are not of the standard manzai-inspired format, the soundtrack is probably the best one for a TV show all year, its action direction is pretty damn solid, and so on. It's not funny, but I've watched all of it because it's well-crafted regardless. I respect that.


I can respect trying something new, hell I want something new. It was my favorite thing about Satoshi Kon, his work was always unique. Gundam has stagnated to the point of absurdity, and I refuse to watch Gundam Unicorn because I am sick and tired of Federation vs Zeon. At the same time I can't get behind a comedy that isn't funny. Hiroyuki Imashi has a visual flair that is unmatched in all of anime, watching something by him is a delight, but for all the great visuals, the script has been awful. The angels are both jerks which seems to be a pre-requisite for adult comedies in america, the priest is a pedophile (who didn't see that coming), and you have the standard buttmonkey. They're not even trying with comedy like that.

From what I heard every once in a while they might have a good episode where they actually try, but that's not good enough for the Director of Gurren Lagann.
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 5690

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:43 am Reply with quote
See the problem I see with Panty and Stocking based off what has been said is it's trying to funny by being offensive, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

With all respect to the fans, it's not that it's a bad series or anything, but it is extremely challenging to create a series that is funny but in a unique way. Offensive humor is very tough because if it's nothing but offensive humor without much substance, there is a chance that it might not go so well.

Personally, I read the reviews, listened to what people have said and the review here. I normally like jokes that slightly offensive because the potential for comedy. That is why I really do enjoy Gintama and later on enjoyed the Funimation version of Shin Chan.

Shin Chan is without a doubt offensive and the series doesn't deny that fact at all. Yet, despite the offensiveness, some of the comedy isn't always rude and you do get to see a day and a life with the main cast of the characters as well. Some episodes more so than others. But there is a certain amount of normalcy in the show as well, Shin (the main character) does attend school, hangs out with friends and does actions that most people do daily realistically.

But despite all the craziness of the series, you can also tell deep down Shin and the other characters do care about each other and there is some form of unity there. The Funimation theme song best explains this best graphically, as well watching later episodes.

Gintama is obviously different because the themes variate depending on the current arc. Comedy, seriousness, light heartiness friendship and several other themes. I will say this though, in several cases, the comedy is out of the box and that is what makes the comedy so unique and so fascinating with the series. Not to mention hilarious, but that is up for interpretation depending on the viewer's sense of comedy.

I personally thought it was pretty cool to actually hear Brian and Todd opinions rather than just read them I normally do. Todd really does know what he is talking about and that is why reading the X Button has been quite fun. Todd is right though, even though I personally never really thought about this before.

Japan really no longer is the driving force with video games anymore. I will say that they make exceptional role playing games and continue to create truly original idea's, but US has them beat with shooter games and to some degree, action games.

But shooter games is where it's been at with US since the playstation 2 era. I've been gaming for a long time and I also have noticed that it's the shooter games that sell the best and are usually most popular. I don't play them, but I remember reading that Call of Duty: Black Opps sold well over a million copies and that is only during one day. For any game now and days, that is fairly impressive.

I've never really played any shooter game, but I think I know the reason why the sell so well. Simulation and lot's of it. When you play a game such as Call of Duty you take on the role of that character and which that creates the feeling of actually seeing the battle live and in person. That is a pretty interesting concept and is likely to be more complex than that, depending on wherever the gamer is a casual gamer or really hard core gamer.

It's not to say rpg games haven't been popular, but I'll admit, the shooter games certainly have a vast demographic that they appeal to and there is still room to grow and expand on these games.

Great article ANN, very interesting and was quite informative.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 6916
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:46 am Reply with quote
Anime World Order wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
As for other American games, I loved Gears of War and Mass Effect but both had very disappointing sequels.


I will stab a brother in the neck with a butter knife for saying that Mass Effect 2 is a disappointing sequel compared to the first! That's like saying The Empire Strikes Back is a disappointing sequel to Star Wars. I'll leave it at that since otherwise I'll write a book-length on exactly why...and I have OTHER things to write book-length posts about:


Ah, but now you've thrown down the gauntlet! I must rant!

Here's the single biggest problem I have with ME2: There's no actual core game or story. There are really only a couple central missions, none of which amount to much of anything story-wise or character-wise and then you're sent right off to the final battle. They try to substitute the half dozen character recruitment missions for any real, substantial core game and it really doesn't work. It's not that the recruitment missions aren't well done. They're okay. It's that they're so completely segmented. Which ones you do and which order is up to you and therefore, none of the characters have any real significance outside their own segments. The segments themselves have no impact on the larger plot either so there's really not much of a overall story to the game. The first Mass Effect is one of the rare few games that I actually really liked the story without any kind of "as far as game stories go" qualifier. It was a complex, massive and epic story that really stood on it's own and didn't just serve to string along the gameplay. That's exactly the problem with ME2 though. It ultimately amounts to nothing more than a fairly thin overarching plot that's padded out by a series of isolated, episodic segments.

It's more than just a pure story issue though. ME1 was so unique in that it was one of the few games to actually succeed in creating a role playing experience that you truly felt like you were playing a role in. This of course was vitally tied to the story. You're never given the chance to make real major decisions in ME2 that truly effect anything like they did in the first game. Nor does dialogue ever really amount to much outside of conversations with party characters. Also, while I really appreciate that they've attempted to allow choice continuity from the first game, they have clearly bitten off way more than they can chew. All it really means is that they're forced to marginalize everything from ME1 that may vary. Who survived? Kaidan or Ashley? Doesn't much matter, they're written out of the plot after a brief cameo in a very unsatisfying way. What about Wrex? Also reduced to a brief cameo...and Wrex was [expletive] awesome. Crying or Very sad There's a lot of little nods to previous events in the form of emails and little references but it's just icing with no actual substance. The whole thing really feels terribly disconnected from the first game.

Then there is the actual gameplay. I don't criticize them at all for mixing things up there. The gameplay in ME1 was okay but by no means the main selling point. The trouble is, they've stripped out a bunch of stuff and haven't really replaced it with anything. It all feels so dumbed down. The battle system has been reduced to a pretty generic TPS system. The number of abilities each squad member can learn is reduced and each class is now limited to only a couple weapon types. Weapon and Armour collecting has been almost entirely removed. You can only find literally one new weapon of each type through out the entire game and a handful of armor parts with little to no effect. They've added a fairly nice upgrades system but this by no means balances out what's been removed. They've also completely removed planetary exploration though which is probably wise since the rover was absolutely heinous to drive. Except they haven't actually replaced it with anything except an even more tedious mining game that you must do to find minerals for upgrades. There are still plenty of side missions and they're a lot more distinct which is a big plus. Still, I really missed having dozens of planets to explore each with a bunch of various little things to check out. It barely took me half as much time to do everything in ME2 as it did in ME1.

Again, I want to emphasize that I don't think ME2 is a bad game. It's just such a massive disappointment though. Definitely not nearly as good as ME1.
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YotaruVegeta



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 722
Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:14 am Reply with quote
Teriyaki, I agree. Compared to Gintama or Shin-chan, Panty & Stocking is definitely not as funny.

Going back to the podcast, I don't know how "gross" the actual bodily fluids are, because first off, it's a cartoon and it's not like they tossed real feces or vomit into the show. Secondly, in the first episode, the crap looked like chocolate ice cream. I really didn't get sickened by it just because it came from a toilet or the characters pointed out what it was.

I wish they actually grossed me out, because that would have been some sort of accomplishment. The first episode is, unfortunately, the weakest episode of Panty & Stocking, and I can't blame people if they dropped off after that.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 4046
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:26 pm Reply with quote
Like the podcast Zac.

idols in Japan: I'm glad you and Carlos tell us about AKB48. Quite a phenomenon in Japan. Also glad you brought up the idol thing and Aya Hirano. I remember hearing about this controversey from Kotaku.

Video game: I've been doing research on western game in Japan. It's true that FPS in Japan doesn't do well and JRPGs in US don't do well in US also. I know the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest is somewhat recognizable in US. In Japan, I know several FPS that was successful in Japan. I believe Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was the first FPS to break 100,000 sales in Japan on it's first day. Modern Warfare 2 sales even outsold Tale of Grace sales in Japan. No western FPS has ever broke sales in Japan until Modern Warfare 2. Modern Warfare 2 might have been #3 in Japan when it sold well in Japan. But did you know GTA 4 was #1 in Japan when it came out over there. GTA San Andreas was also #1 when it came out in Japan. FPS and western shooter might have some moderate success in Japan. But our western RPG do really better in Japan then FPS. I recall Mass Effect had a good sales in Japan, the sequel will come out in Japan this winter (no exact date though). I expect this game to sold out in Japan and maybe the PS3 version to sell better then the 360 in Japan (since most game on multiple platform in Japan, the PS3 version will tend to sell better in Japan). Also I do recall that Elder Scrolls 4 in Japan made the top 10 sales when it came to Japan. Just last week, Fallout: New Vegas kind of made the top 10 in Japan.

Other honorable mention for our western game in Japan:

-Battlefield: Bad Company 2 sold well on it's first week in Japan.

-Battlefield 1943 was the #2 downloadable game on Xbox Live in Japan (and maybe the PS3 also).

Now I know FPS and shooter in Japan in general are not quite well-received. But the info and the evidence I show you does tell that shooter do have fans in Japan and I do recall some Japanese developer want to do First person Shooter. Hideo Kojima has expressed interest for that. Team Ico of Shadow of Colossus fame has said they wanted to do First Person Shooter, Team Ico has said they are big fan of Half Life 2. Lastly, Tetsuya Nomura (Yes, that Nomura) has expressed interest of doing a First Person Shooter, he is a big Battlefield Bad Company 2 fan. So there maybe some hope to get Japan interested in shooter and FPS I hope.

Oh uh Zac, you don't mind a suggestion, do ya? if you want to have a future guest for ANNcast, then you don't mind I recommend Brian Ashcraft from Kotaku, he's a good expert with what's going on in Japan? Also he has written 2 book about Japan one about Japanese schoolgirl and another boook about arcade game in Japan. He has written a lot of kotaku article involving Japanese games, anime, manga, and pop culture.
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