Forum - View topicNEWS: LA Times Article on Fansubs
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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That is bad. We should be able to openly discuss, understand eachother in a proper manner and not shut anyone out. Don't put down the issue if there's a problem, instead put down the manner of the discussion or arguement and encourage a proper discussion. My post was just an opinion, I'd like to hear anyone elses take on it. |
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Sir_Brass
 Posts: 476 Location: Prescott, AZ |
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That's not fansubbing, that's SPEEDSUBBING. Back before Gundam SEED Destiny was licensed, there were 3 groups subbing who were known well for their quality, but there were 2 other groups who would ALWAYS release before the 3 good groups. These 2 groups had crappy subs and I'm glad to say that I never wasted my time and bandwidth downloading their crap. Fansubbing groups still produce good work. Speedsubbers try to get their stuff out as fast as they can, and screw quality. I stay WELL away from speedsubbers. Also, I think there's a misunderstanding here. By 'b' titles I don't mean lesser known anime like FMoS or Yohko. I mean stuff like Sister Princess. 'A' titles are excellent titles, whether or not they get alot of attention or not. Fansubbing groups that are good generally choose what they percieve to be 'A' titles, that is, titles that they, as fans, would like to see subbed. This can include the hits, as well as the sleepers (like PLANETES. I'm SOOOOO looking forward to seeing that on DVD  ), but that doesn't matter to a good group. A good group will choose the series they like and sub them because they like the series and consider it worth their time to fansub. Those are the 'A' titles to me, not titles that aren't worth the fansubber's time or the anime consumer's hard earned $$.
Also, someone mentioned about deleting their fansubs once they bought the DVDs. Well, I buy the DVDs of the series I see in fansub, but I don't delete them  . I spent to much time dling them to delete them, and besides, it's not like I'm distributing them either. The buck stops when it gets to my HD. It also makes for more battery life on my laptop if the media player is reading from the HD rather than the DVD drive, thus the DVD drive draining current like it's no one's business, thus meaning that I can watch my anime while flying without having to pack DVDs into my carry on. But that is just me. As long as one supports the industry by buying the DVDs of what they dl'd and enjoyed, then I feel that it's their free choice as to whether or not to keep their fansubs (sometimes it's easier to read the fansub's subs. one thing commercial dvds don't have to fansubs is subtitle quality (in reference to fonts and resolution of the subs)).
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Sir_Brass
Posts: 476 Location: Prescott, AZ |
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I wasn't meaning to stiffle discussion, it's just that the last thread where fansubs were mentioned (and where someone advocated that they weren't bad), the whole discussion was derailed from the original topic and was locked. I don't want that to happen to this thread. Yes, this involves fansubs, but I'd rather have people comment on what I had to say rather than lambasting my opinions. Like I said, discussing fansubs is fine, even talking about their effect on the market. I just don't want to see ad hominem (attacks on the person, not the arguement) attacks start up either for or against fansubs. That's all. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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Well then the feeling is mutual, still when it put it that way it's not quite right. It's not a matter of the people and arguement but that if it isn't a proper discussion people will usually attack the people ignoring the fact that they might not know their reason for their arguement. You just didn't put it right. Instead of "Now, I'm going to leave it at that and ask that no one comment on the above paragraph and make this into a fansub vs. anti-fansub arguement." you should have put it as a more of "that's my opinion, understand my reasons" which you did after, just don't ask for the discussion to close or you're contradicting yourself.
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SDraconis
Posts: 4 |
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I have a much longer and detailed opinion about this that I really have to post sometime (but I am too lazy/too much to do right now). The big issue for me is that for anime that doesn't make it onto TV, people here don't really have a way to tell if a series will be any good before spending lots of money on very pricey DVD's. (Note I am referring to anime that comes out both on TV and uncensored DVD). I know I've started a couple series that I feel I shouldn't have bothered with. There's also the "okay" series that one can go with or without watching, but would never be considered buying to watch and/or rewatch.
Then there is the issue of quality. Granted, the DVD's will be higher video quality than the fansubs. However, sometimes I prefer the fansub's translation of something (not to say the licensed release is wrong necessarily, I just prefer the fansub one sometimes). Fansubs also have the ability to include karaoke in both language for the beginning and ending sequences, and translation notes where needed. This is sort of a limiting technology factor with DVD's though, as there's no way to get "soft" or removable subs with all of those features. (This is why I believe that the people releasing the DVD should pack in extras. Karaoke openings/endings as a DVD extra would be wonderful). There's also, of course, release issues when it comes to fansub ethics. Sometimes a series is far along when it is licensed, and people that are partway through would have to wait ages until the appropriate DVD's came out. That all said, I still firmly believe in buying the anime you love (and came to love through fansubs) once the DVD releases are out. However, I also firmly believe that companies that license anime and distribute DVD's should put in all the work to make the DVD's worth the price tag. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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SDraconis, I agree. Nothing to contradict anything I've said on this topic yet, suprising.
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Bruce Lee
 Posts: 715 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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I don't really follow this A title, B title thing. It seems to me that it should be either All or nothing. Who's to say one title is an A, while another is a C. Naruto is a huge show, but it wasn't licensed until what, 100+ eps into it's run? That's 2 years for an obvious A title. Other great titles that are older than that might not ever be licensed for the US. Now take a show like Erementar Gerard which just premiered and was licensed even before that, without any idea as to it's quality. Now take a look at some of the horrble shows that have had official R1 releases. I know I've seen more than a couple of F titles on the shelf at my local Fry's
If Fansubbers are to exist and live in peace w/the Licensers, there needs to be some kind of agreement or system in place where they don't step on everyones toes. If only the top A titles and best of the B are licensed, and subbers have free reign on anything C or under, this could work, but there are so many holes that it's bound to be screwed up. I can't see any feasable way for them to co-exist better than the way they are now. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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That more or less was my point. Aside from being more legally firm with fan subbers on liscenses and doing less popular titles there's nothing else being brought up about how the dubbers should handle the situation. And I was just using the "A" and "B" titles to represent just popular titles or not that popular titles.
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Septeus7
Posts: 88 |
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The relationship between internet distribution and general sales is actually quite interesting because it really quite complex. Its not as simple as fansubber hurts industry=bad or fansubbers provide wide distribution=good.
The facts are that market realities are changing quite quickly. 10 years ago titles like FMA would have been in B-titles in terms of US sales compared to today but because the internet the and fansubbers the US market was flooded with free goods. Initially this was the best thing that could have happened to the industry because of the bubble it created that allowed for rapid creation of mainsteam market distribution however now that such distribution system are in place the illecit distribution systems now hurt A rank titles and even some B rankers. I doubt C and D rankers are affected as even the fansubbers don't bother with them much. Those titles are usually the back burner projects with an one episodes being subbed every 5 months(why can't they finish Yawara damnit? Its been like two two years...grrrr) The Anime industry rode into town on the back of the internet beast but the beast won't stop. Once again the industry needs to relized that there's no free lunch. The Net giveth and and Net taketh away. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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I see, sounds correct to me, yea I didn't really put anything down specifically about the fact that they're also the double edged sword in that sense, quite interesting indeed.
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GoodLuckSaturday
 Posts: 567 Location: Indiana |
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While I can't speak for everyone, isn't the fact some do better than the fact none do? It may not optimize sales, but things can be worse. I know that personally, I can attribute a considerable amount of my anime DVD collection, anime game collection, and manga collection back to anime fansubs. While one person doesn't make a difference, it sure doesn't stop anyone from saying it does every election. I'm doing my "duty" as an anime fan to support the North American industry. That's all I can do. If fansubs are such an issue, then the North American companies need to license and release series quickly and precisely in America and in a way that one can watch before buying. I do mean the 'B' titles as well. Fullmetal Alchemist and Midori Days made it over in less than a year, but is that the best they can do? |
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Onizuka666
Posts: 266 Location: U.K |
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I'd like to read this article but the link is silly. Can someone who can get in put up a link please.
True, fansubbing is a double edge sword. And true again the beast that put the market in its castle is not going to go away into a corner and die. Nothing on the net is every really gone. The established market should try to use fansubbing to their advantage (but I bet they already do this anyway). For once it's nice to see some power in the hands of the people (unlike the mp3 and movie biz) but I reckon the two worlds will co exist for ages. |
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prime_pm
 Posts: 2336 Location: Your Mother's Bedroom |
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I have mixed views on this subject.
On my communication arts side, I think fansubbing is wrong for many companies. It gives people the basis that they can simply download free episodes without acknowledging the companies that are bringing them overseas. People figure, "Why pay thirty bucks + for anime at some store when I have the whole series for free? Besides, it's only an extra English track that nobody listens to anyway!" The problem that fansubbers fail to recognize is that bringing anime into the states has always been a costly procedure, taking up time and money. Even with the run of all these companies for many years, it has only been the past five to ten (something like that) when the majority has been able to recognize anime, and now anime has become more frequently available than in their previous analog forms. I went into a very old Hollywood Video and saw only a handful collection of analog anime, ranging from all the loads of dubbed Sailor Moon tapes and a single subtitled version of Kotetsu, and compared them to the higher selection of current DVD's of recent high-class anime. With this frequency in availability, fansubs become an obstacle in the anime market now, thereby taking away potential customers. And if the demand for anime is not compromised, then the need for more anime dwindles as well. Of course, there is another side of me that talks about supply and demand. Granted that the frequency of anime in the US is appealing, it has also become irritating for many of the veterans. Many of the companies, right now, are trying to appeal to new viewers, and as the Catholic Church has proven billions of times before, you have to hook them while they're young (I'm Catholic too, so I have a right to make fun of myself). Recently, some anime companies, not to point anybody in particular4Kidsout, cut corners with their licenses and translate titles in a completely different way from the original, in order to appeal to more younger audiences. Many essences of plot is lost in the process, and the only thing that the children will be drawn to will be the "shiny colors" of the action scenes. Now, as anyone who has taken any course relevant in business should know (for me, economic geography), as the appeal (demand) of anime continues to grow, a greater supply is necessary in order to balance out with the demand. And in order to create more supply, capital is required. Hence, as long as the appeal for anime continues, the prices for anime will probably continue to be priced around thirty bucks, sometimes higher. Fansubs, in this case, can appear as more like marketing research, allowing companies to look into which particular series' appeal best for viewers and choose which to market from. So, in this instance, it works. Like it's said, fansubs are double-edged blades. They provide anime fans the latest series coming from Japan, but can also take away sales from major companies as well. What the whole situation draws down to, however, is the human conscience. Many fansubbers follow a code of honor that they abide by involving the license of a series, but there are those that abuse this code in favor of bootlegging to the cheap. I, myself, have taken upon purchasing series, even though I have them all already...and even though the dub for Comic Party was just awful. But, I think the problem with fansubs is just a thing of a past for me. I mean, what companies need to be worried about now are the Netflix/Blockbuster Online businesses. When I first heard of this concept, I knew there was going to be some kind of a problem with this. And, just as I thought, I hear how friends go about ripping the dvd's onto their hard drives for their own use. With this process, fansubs are not going to be anymore of a problem for companies, as people will be able to easily rip dvd's; while nothing serious yet, this can possibly lead to a frequent problem with even worse kinds of bootleggers. Fortunately, the process would require much harddrive space, a monthly subscription, and a costly supply of blank dvd-r's, so it's so far been limited to only private use. But if companies aren't careful, this will become more of a problem than fansubbers. (I checked out a Radioshack recently and saw a five pack of DVD+R's for $7) |
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Napoleon
 Posts: 11 Location: The Hegemony of America |
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All I have to say is that the greater portion of my anime DVD collection owes its existence on my shelfs to fansubs. Right or wrong, fansubs are great for previewing anime.
- A fansubbing opinion from Napoleon |
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roxybudgy
Posts: 129 Location: Western Australia |
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The effect fansubs have on sales may vary. Some people, if they can watch for free, they won't buy it, regardless of what their income is.
As for myself, I consider anime and manga as, not just something to watch and read, but something to collect (like stamp collecting). So despite me having already watch Neon Genesis Evangelion when it aired on SBS, I still intend to buy the Platinum edition box set someday (right now, I can't afford to buy it because I'm saving up for a laptop, plus I have to pay for university fees and books). I guess the general idea behind fansubs is to let people 'try before you buy'. There are many anime and manga in my legally purchased collection that wouldn't be there if it weren't for freebies (borrowed from library, friends, or downloaded). Anyway, I tried to read the artcle, but it said something about registering. |
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