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NEWS: LA Times Article on Fansubs


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beelzebozo



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Aurora, Colorado
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:36 pm Reply with quote
Steve007101 wrote:
Personally, I have all of Naruto fansubbed downloaded and I definetly can't wait until we have the Naruto games over here.


So are you actually going to buy the games or are you going to get a cheaper bootlegged version or rip it off a friend's copy?

Yes, I know that was a cheap shot, but it's what goes through the mind of decision makers of a company as to wether to pay for rights and translation of properties.

IF fandom had actually shown a history of quiting fansubbing and distribution once a show was licensed, maybe they'd believe you. IF fans would quit downloading the shows once the licensing was announced, maybe they'd believe you. IF 99% of the fans would NOT buy the bootlegged versions or even allow them into the conventions, then they'd believe you.

But there are too many fans that are not doing those things and not enough fans looking down on that behavior to browbeat the other fans into complying. Older fandoms have a history of letting people know what is and is not acceptable in their fandom. Anime fandom, mostly due to it's age, does not yet.

And don't blame the American companies all the time. The Japanese companies will purposefully not allow American translators to release shows until the Japanese DVDs are finished releasing in Japan to be sure that reverse importing will not cut too deeply into their sales.
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XenoCrisis0153



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Boston, Mass
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Wow, such a passionate debate going on here, I love it. Too bad I missed the LA Times article online. Anyway, I don't have sales and distrubution statisitics, nor can I get in the minds of any of the large anime company executives or even begin to imagine the buying trends of most fan-subbers, but I'll offer my suggestions anyway:

1) Maybe fan-sub groups should only sub the first couple episodes of a particular series instead of the whole thing. This would be more like a "free sample" as opposed to giving us the whole thing for nothing. I'm too lazy to go back and re-search this thread, but someone noted that Nuku Nuku had poor sales on volumes 1 and 2, but high sales on vol 3 since the fan-subs stopped halfway through. We all know as anime fans that you have to see the entire series to really appreciate it (or even find out the resolution), so if we only got to see the first 4 or 5 episodes, it would kind of force us to buy the remaining episodes when released (I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather buy the whole series than have holes in my collection, ya know?).

AND/OR

2) Japanese companies like TokyoTV and BS-I should really research the endeavor of purchasing towers here on American soil to carry their network's broadcast here. They can sell the advertising space to local North American companies, but air their anime programs here, kinda like Cartoon Network and AnimeNetowrk, only the programs will air simultaneously in Japan and in N.A. I know the only reason I download fansubs is because I'm too impatient to wait a year and a half to watch series that so many people are telling me about. Plus, the companies won't be losing money to "bootleggers" (sorry to use that term, but most would argue it's accurate) because they're making money off of the adverstisers.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Like I said, I don't have numbers and data nor do I know how most fansubbers and anime-fans feel about their own fansub collections, but these are my own views. Keep this debate going, it's interesting.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:36 pm Reply with quote
cyrax777 wrote:
. Im talking the casual fan who watches his stuff off CN grabs the occsinal dvd from suncoast or whatever. They do make up a larger % of the fandom then we do. We are just more vocal about our fandom then them.


At this point, I don't believe at all that they make up a larger percentage then we do. How big of a fan you are has no bearing on whether you are downloading fansubs. Today, you are hardpressed to find a younger person who is not, at the very least, computer proficient. If these people can figure out how to download music, and millions upon millions do, then perhaps you can tell me why you think they can't figure out how to download a fansub? In fact, the daughter of a friend of mine has stumbled across fansubs, and she's only 8.

For instance, a certain site, which will remain namless, has 100,228 registered users. Current stats show 65,923 peers, 18,650 seeds, and 47,273 leechers. This is only ONE site.
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Location: IL, USA
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:04 pm Reply with quote
Now on the popularity of fan subs, I don't honestly know, looking at these posts I can't say too well but from my experience I'm inclined to say that more people don't know about fan subs, I mean come on, think of the actual numbers you see on Bittorrents for example (as previously posted, it's in the 10,000's to 100,000's, thats registered users for a site which of course can be given a factor of 10 or two to estimate overall fansubs) and compare that to anime fans with even a rough number (10's of millions at least) and I'd be inclined to say most anime fans don't know much about fan subs still, most being 90% not knowing and downloading fansubs to maybe even above 95%. I mean think about how many people there are in america alone and a few hundred thousand, maybe even a few million isn't that much even by anime standards.

And on the post beelzebozo made quoting me. I'm a very bad example for that post, don't know why you picked it. I was just speaking personally on the Naruto Games and honestly I'm in agreement with you. Personally speaking again, I'd get them for free if i could. The thing is, if you didn't know, the Naruto games I was generally refering too were on New systems (PSP, DS, PS2, and Gamecube) which heck, PSP and DS are so new that's unthinkable, PS2, I'm not that into it to get a mod chip and gameshark and rig my PS2 and the currently emulator isn't so good, same nearly with Gamecube, however for the GBA there is a Naruto game or two that I will most likely download and play on an emulator for free, so there you go.

This was one of the very same points I made in my FIRST post on this topic. People are inclined to be lazy and ignore not very strongly inforced rules, especially with this generation and sadly I too am no different, I definetly was a bad example considering the actual context you didn't know.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:25 pm Reply with quote
Steve007101 wrote:
and compare that to anime fans with even a rough number (10's of millions at least)


Are you talking about the US or the world? Because the number of anime fans in the US is nowhere near 10 million. Remember, we're talking niche niche niche here. A market where moving 30,000 copies of a title is outstanding. And, like I said, that's one site. (which deals with English fansubs mind you)


Last edited by Kazuki-san on Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Location: IL, USA
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:31 pm Reply with quote
Hah, yea I'd figure I'm way off, I can't even estimate. Well like I said, I have absolutely no idea, so I guess I can agree. Afterall, it's certainly a problem to them so I can easily be leaned that way.
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XenoCrisis0153



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Boston, Mass
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:34 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
Steve007101 wrote:
and compare that to anime fans with even a rough number (10's of millions at least)


Are you talking about the US or the world? Because the number of anime fans in the US is nowhere near 10 million. Remember, we're talking niche niche niche here. A market where moving 30,000 copies of a title is outstanding. And, like I said, that's one site. (which deals with English fansubs mind you)


That's exactly what I was going to say. Though the anime fan-base in America is growing, the numbers are still very very tiny compared to other groups. And like you said, even to sell 30,000 copies of a title is a triumph. Put into perspective, I live in a New England town of 30,000 people, so it's like if everyone in my town bought 1 copy, the nationwide quota would be met, however we know that's not possible. For the upcoming AnimeBoston 2005 Convention, I think a generous estimate is about 15-20 people out of 30,000 will be attending from my town. That's no where near a full percentage point and if that's an accurate cross-section of the rest of America, that only proves that anime fans are far and few between.

My point in all this rambling is that with an average sales figure of 15,000 to 20,000 DVD units, EVERY person's support is needed. Even if only 5,000 people nationwide say they will download the fansub and not buy the DVD when released, that title has already lost 25-33% of its target market. It's only a matter of time until the companies can no longer make a profit from anime and just crumble. I, for one, would hate to see that happen.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:

There are those that get the fansubs, and forgo buying the DVDs because they believe they are too expensive, and there are also those who are buying other series and just "never get around" to buying the DVDs.

It was more of a rhetorical, mainly because I think bringing "dub vs sub" into the "fansub ethics" debate is kind of pointless. I've read posts from people saying they download because DVDs are too expensive, so I know that's happening, altho I QOULD question what percentage of those people would buy or even watch really if the fansubs were unavailable. convenience is an important part of "mainstream" media. When MTV played music videos I actually watched them and liked some, now that they don't I honestly DON'T really care about them anymore.

Kazuki-san wrote:

HeeroTX wrote:
I dunno, but I'd argue that it is there. People who might never actually buy Naruto DVDs are DEFINITELY buying Naruto merchandise.


While there is a large portion of the fandom that buys related merchandise, there is an equally large portion that are only interested in the series itself. Those types of people will not be adding any money into the merchandise market whether they pay for DVDs or not.

You ARE kidding right? Ignoring that the Naruto manga is currently out (seeing as this was true before then altho admittedly to a lesser degree), the anime is not. And yet go to ANY anime con and look at ANY random anime dealer. If you don't see a wide range of Naruto merchandise I'll be shocked. And dealers pay good money to go and transport their stock, they're not going to lug out merchanidse they don't think they can sell. What about Mamotte Shugogetten, which had a failed manga run (only made vol 4), has NEVER seen an American release, and yet still has merchandise on anime con dealer tables (I know because I look for, and buy, it). And there's of course various other series.

One can argue that the sales of merchandise doesn't equal lost DVD sales, OR one can argue that merchandise sales doesn't JUSTIFY lost DVD sales, one can even POSSIBLY argue that people should be selling BOTH the DVDs and merchandise in high numbers. But to even CONSIDER that fansubs aren't a BIG boost to the merchandise sales is just blindness.

To cover the other end of the arguement, I would AGAIN refer you to US tv series DVD sales. Series DVDs sell to a NICHE market, the wide audience doesn't WANT to buy DVDs of every episode of a TV series, and anime companies KNOW that. Again, look at Kenshin DVDs as an example. They PURPOSELY put new titles on each arc (or even on just "sections") because they KNOW that people are intimidated by the prospect of buying a long series. At minimum, rental chains (like Blockbuster) don't carry long series for this reason, it's not profitable on "average". Go to your local Blockbuster now and you can probably find anime, and it is PROBABLY "Evangelion (movie)", "Spirited Away", "Tokyo Godfathers" maybe some miscellaneous OAVs and MAYBE one or two vols of a TV series. If your Blockbuster has ANY series, containing 4 or more DVDs, in its entirety (aside from MAYBE something like Dragonball or some Pokemon crud in the kids section), I'll be shocked, and then your place has an anime fan on staff and is the exception.

Bottom line, it wouldn't happen over night, but over a span of maybe a few years, if you COULD remove fansubs from the equation, the US anime market would be what it was BEFORE internet distribution of fansubs. A Market of HARDCORE "otaku". The "mainstream" audience isn't going to buy tons of anime DVDs sight unseen, this is why you get inundated with movie ads for crap movies.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:52 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:

Are you talking about the US or the world? Because the number of anime fans in the US is nowhere near 10 million. Remember, we're talking niche niche niche here. A market where moving 30,000 copies of a title is outstanding. And, like I said, that's one site. (which deals with English fansubs mind you)

To be fair, if you're quoting numbers from an INTERNET site, then the user base IS international. I KNOW fans in Canada and UK download from English fansub sites. I EXPECT people from other nations also, but I KNOW those two are represented. I would say, How many people watch Cartoon Network, now how many people bought the "Space Ghost" or "Sealab" or "Harvey Birdman" DVDs.

I think a better example of this issue is this:
I don't play Everquest, I NEVER have, I have friends that do, I've watched them play Everquest a little, it doesn't interest me. If you GAVE me a "free" account, I'd probably go play and check it out, I might even enjoy it. But unless it was GREAT, something I TOTALLY didn't expect it to be going in, I'm not going to sign up and start playing if you stop paying for me. And I DANG sure am not going to start playing it on my own. That's a majority of anime downloaders. Now granted, those people don't have any "right" to watch the anime for "free", and legally fansubs are straight up illegal. But I honestly think it IS a question of "how much IS actually being lost vs. gained" rather than just "there's a million people downloading and only 10,000 buying, obviously there SHOULD be a million people buying" because that's just not true.
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Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:52 pm Reply with quote
HeeroTX wrote:

You ARE kidding right? Ignoring that the Naruto manga is currently out (seeing as this was true before then altho admittedly to a lesser degree), the anime is not. And yet go to ANY anime con and look at ANY random anime dealer. If you don't see a wide range of Naruto merchandise I'll be shocked. And dealers pay good money to go and transport their stock, they're not going to lug out merchanidse they don't think they can sell.


I'm not sure why you are comparing dealer space at cons to merchandise sales of people that would not purchase the DVDs. People that go to cons are, as with everything else, a small percentage of the market. Generally speaking, those that go to cons are already pretty "big" fans, just taking into account money spent just to get in the door. (passes, hotel, etc) Of course dealers expect to sell that kind of stuff at a con and do. But that's not going to affect Joe Schmo who sits in his college dorm all day downloading fansubs, and would rather spend his money going out drinking then buy anime merchandise. You won't be making up any money from him, nor the countless others like him.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:48 am Reply with quote
beelzebozo wrote:
Steve007101 wrote:
Personally, I have all of Naruto fansubbed downloaded and I definetly can't wait until we have the Naruto games over here.


So are you actually going to buy the games or are you going to get a cheaper bootlegged version or rip it off a friend's copy?

Yes, I know that was a cheap shot, but it's what goes through the mind of decision makers of a company as to wether to pay for rights and translation of properties.

IF fandom had actually shown a history of quiting fansubbing and distribution once a show was licensed, maybe they'd believe you. IF fans would quit downloading the shows once the licensing was announced, maybe they'd believe you. IF 99% of the fans would NOT buy the bootlegged versions or even allow them into the conventions, then they'd believe you.

But there are too many fans that are not doing those things and not enough fans looking down on that behavior to browbeat the other fans into complying. Older fandoms have a history of letting people know what is and is not acceptable in their fandom. Anime fandom, mostly due to it's age, does not yet.

And don't blame the American companies all the time. The Japanese companies will purposefully not allow American translators to release shows until the Japanese DVDs are finished releasing in Japan to be sure that reverse importing will not cut too deeply into their sales.
These same situations is what caused the anime market in the UK to collapse back in 2000 causing Pioneer Ent, and later Manga Ent. to pull out leaving the UK virtually high and dry for PAL/R2 titles. It has only just recently started to recover but still the ripping and DL'ing continues with the hardcore otaku's, and for the same self-rightous but still selfish reasons Rolling Eyes
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Steve007101



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Location: IL, USA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:28 am Reply with quote
On the note of "how much IS actually being lost vs. gained" by HeeroTX I agree. The point of this is weither one really does outweight the other. There still is a lot of mixed opinions on differenct aspects of this here but it's definetly seeming like a good discussion especially now. If anyone has anything else to add on the idea above then I'd be glad to hear it. Right now though I think I feel that fansubbing seems like it really is quite a threat to the dub market considering the recent posts with reguards to the number of DVDs sold and fansubs downloaded.
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Razorlight6



Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:15 am Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
But that's not going to affect Joe Schmo who sits in his college dorm all day downloading fansubs, and would rather spend his money going out drinking then buy anime merchandise. You won't be making up any money from him, nor the countless others like him.

I don't know....

Sitting in his dorm and downloading all day? Sounds like Joe Schmo really is a hardcore otaku. Very Happy
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:49 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:

I'm not sure why you are comparing dealer space at cons to merchandise sales of people that would not purchase the DVDs. People that go to cons are, as with everything else, a small percentage of the market. Generally speaking, those that go to cons are already pretty "big" fans, just taking into account money spent just to get in the door.

I was mainly using cons as an example, basically most merchandise will be going to "fans" rather than "mainstream" anyway. The POINT was that you are gaining in merchandise sales even if you are losing in DVD sales. The standard arguement is "you want your favorite anime made, right? so money needs to go back to the creator". In that case, what is the difference between $1 million in DVD sales vs. $1 million in merchandise? The only difference is which company is the middle man and how much of a cut is going back. Now, I'm sure it's not as cut and dried as "$1 million here vs. $1 million there", but it's ALSO not as clear cut as "They should be making $2 million not $1 million from one side or the other".

The question is, are fansubs MORE beneficial than they are harmful? I think it depends on who you are, I'd say it's very likely that fansubs reduce sales of domestic release DVDs, in which case it hurts the US distributor. But, for the ORIGINAL licensor, is that made up in other areas.

On a PURELY theoretical tangent, the arguement ALSO seems to be, fansubs don't heavily affect the "A" titles, but they hurt the "B" and below titles. Question, do we really NEED wide distribution of the "B" and less titles? I mean, no offense to its fans and such, but if the domestic distributor pays BIG bucks to get "Agent Aika", is it really such a loss if those don't get picked up anymore? Heck, for that matter is it such a tragedy if it isn't MADE anymore?
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Romuska
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Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 795
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:03 pm Reply with quote
Sir_Brass wrote:
Actually, the Geneon guy is wrong. more and more 'b' titles are being ignored because the anime market is GROWING and fans can be more picky, and most choose to NOT waste their money on 'b' titles they don't already like, and if they don't know much about the series, they'll ignore it and go after 'A' titles like FMA. It has nothing to do with fansub distribution (as in, fansub distribution HURTING sales of 'b' series), since most of the GOOD fansubber groups I've seen have stuck with the 'A' titles.


EXACTLY!! That's exactly how I feel. If that's the case, then maybe companies should focus more on A titles rather than B titles. Personally I wouldn't waste one cent of Yakitate Japan because its just not that good of a show. It's a bit of a complicated issue for us Americans. Fans tend to enjoy the show in its original language. Obviously nobody is going to air anime subtitled (except maybe the International channel). The only way to watch it completely uncensored and in its original language is to buy the DVD. That can be pretty expensive.

And no offense to Geneon, but I don't really think they have much of an argument here because they haven't put a show on TV in a long time. And the last time they did (Lupin III) it was poorly dubbed and they cut the second episode. It's things like that that make people download fansubs.

I'll tell you one thing, if anime DVDs had fansub quality, I would probably buy them even more than I do now. So far the companies that produce DVDs the closest to that quality are Funimation and Right Stuf International.
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