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NEWS: Article on Anime Child Porn


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Hayami



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:20 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
First it suggests, but then it doesn't suggest. First you were indecisive, now you're not so sure?
Yep, i might have made a mistake with judging of the Japanese laws regarding juveniles, yes i'm not sure now. Though your main point was that the article is perfectly sane, suggests a good and even obvious thing, what is not true: the article is pretty ambiguous and irritating. Can we stop this please?

Mohawk52 wrote:
Nope, can't see any word "mastubation" there.
Did i said, you used this word? I meant your picture language.

Mohawk52 wrote:
No not just that, but anything that depicts a child under the age of 18 being coersely duped into having sex, or forcibly raped.
A child is a (real) person. That's how Japanese crime code defines "child", the American crime code as well. I don't see any children depicted in loli hentai. ( gosh, how long are we going to move in circles? )


Mohawk52 wrote:
Is this where the word "mastubation" comes in? (no pun intended)

Nope. Not neccessary. I'm talking about psychological relief. Can you stop it please? Or shall we talk about your relief practices?

Mohawk52 wrote:
You ARE living in a fantasy world, aren't you?

And you seem to be unable to enter a dream world. Who's the one to pity?

Mohawk52 wrote:
That I now have no doubt. You should go there and tell them how deeply cruel we are and how unfairly mis-understood those of you who get off on it are.

ANN seems to be fairly average in terms of pro/contra loli. Anyway if i hated some forum (i do not hate ANN, just for record), i would not make advertising for it, even negative ^_~

Mohawk52 wrote:
They openly say, as I have, that it is disgusting.
Perhaps tempest, but not everyone. I just don't feel like wasting time searching.

Mohawk52 wrote:
As a parent of two small children I find your <sarcasm> extremely distasteful.
You clearly insulted me in your previous post. If it disturbs you so much and don't just fake it to adjudge me, you just need to remove your insult and i will remove my comment to it.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2075
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:28 pm Reply with quote
Hayami wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
No not just that, but anything that depicts a child under the age of 18 being coersely duped into having sex, or forcibly raped.
A child is a (real) person. That's how Japanese crime code defines "child", the American crime code as well. I don't see any children depicted in loli hentai. ( gosh, how long are we going to move in circles? )


Wait a second, now I'm confused here. If it's not a child that's depicted, what is being depicted (dictionary definition: To represent in a picture) that makes it loli hentai to begin with?

The article clearly states in it's title Anime Child Porn - this means that fictional or real, it's still considered a form of child porn. Get with the program. It's not open for being circular here.
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Trickstr



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 19
Location: Tasmania, Australia
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Woko wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
Woko wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
Rape, Murder, ritual sacrifice, canabalism.

Bad comment.


There is, however, a very small,slight,tiny difference between the things you mentioned and drawings of young people having sex; a difference so unmeasurebly small that you must have missed it. Yeah, the difference is that rape, murder, ritual sacrifase and canabalism (did you mean cannibalism?) results in killing/hurting other people, while watching drawings of young people having sex... results in? Killing, raping someone? I guess now that I have played KGNE I am nearly a murderer. Rolling Eyes


I was explaning the principle not the degree. And I'm sorry for not spelling it right, but I don't see how that is relevent.


The principle is that you want to make something illegal _without a reason_ (it is just SO wrong), but the things you mentioned (murder,rape...) are illegal for a very good reason (so that you don't get killed/raped as soon as you leave your house).
Correct spelling is important for us foreigners who don't know if it was a mistype or an English word we don't know ~_^


you have my whole argument misunderstood, but I see your not going to bend so I'll leave it.
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Hayami



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:54 pm Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:
So you are intentionally being ambiguous in order to use whatever definition you'd like for the sake of convenience?

What do you mean? One and the same picture can represent something for one person but not for another. The first group in my list does see loli art as representation of children to a great extent ( just like Mohawk52 does ... lol ) How am i "being ambiguous", what do i do "for the sake of convenience"??

Godaistudios wrote:
Granted... but I'm sure there are numerous studies that indicate this. I'm not one for searching them out at the moment.
If there would be numerous studies with unambiguous results about lolicon, they would have been found already. ^^; Many people searched by no evidence found yet. I've read so many pro/contra loli debates, i can't count anymore. Zero real evidence.

Godaistudios wrote:
Yeah, no bias there at all....
I don't see any reason for a loli fan to tell that he is pedophile and that loli stuff helps him to relief his desire. Seriously, he/she would be better off keeping low profile and even avoiding loli debates for various reasons.

Godaistudios wrote:
So you are actually basing your statement on the assertions of others... that not only have a vested interest in it - because it's what they want, but nothing is based on scientific evidence.

S.a. for "their interest" and for "scientific evidence".

Godaistudios wrote:
So it's just an inconclusive statement based upon feelings, nothing objective there either?

*Yawn*

Godaistudios wrote:
Then you shouldn't try to break it down using a method that appears to be based on objective evidences. If it's a personal impression, you should state as much.

*yawn2* As i said, no one provided any evidence in these threads yet. My arguments are not more subjective than arguments of any loli hater.

Godaistudios wrote:
You assume it was an insult... I meant it more as an exclamation of the silliness that has arisen in the exchanges between you and Mohawk.
You don't see it as insult? You sure would have liked if he told to you something like this.


To sum up [ i wanted to add it to the last post but Mohawk52 was faster with his answer an i had to answer him first ] : i just say that the arguments of loli haters aren't any better than arguments of loli fans, thus teh bashing might stop as well ^_~ As i said above: not guilty until otherwise proved, let the loli fans have their dignity and don't insinuate anything you can't prove ( i don't say that you do, i mean teh loli haters, they know who they are ^_~ )

###################
Godaistudios wrote:
Wait a second, now I'm confused here. If it's not a child that's depicted, what is being depicted (dictionary definition: To represent in a picture) that makes it loli hentai to begin with?

Young looking anime characters perhaps? You do know the difference between an anime character and a real person, right? For example an anime character can have magical powers, can pilot gundam etc.

Godaistudios wrote:
The article clearly states in it's title Anime Child Porn - this means that fictional or real, it's still considered a form of child porn. Get with the program. It's not open for being circular here.
I don't see any need to "get with the program". I comment the content inside and disagree with the choice of words in title.
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Ganryu



Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:38 pm Reply with quote
Trickstr wrote:
you have my whole argument misunderstood, but I see your not going to bend so I'll leave it.


Uhhh no. You just can't make your argument any clearer because if you did people would see it has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

You said that you want lolicon banned because it is SO WRONG.

I pointed out that it is in fact a quite vague reason to ban something (with the gay porn comparison).

You then state that you're sure that there's something which we want banned just because we think it is wrong.

I said: Try me (because as far as i know, i don't have anything as such)

You reply listing: Murder, Cannibalism, Rape

A good counter argument was thrown in your way (by Woko), but as you seem to be completely blind to reason you miss it entirely.

Then you claim that Woko doesn't understand YOUR argument O_o

And on a related note:

For anyone who has read 20th Century Boys this scenario sounds rather similar too. To protect the "youth", comic book artists who draw "dangerous" comics are thrown into prison.
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Ganryu



Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:54 pm Reply with quote
mistress_reebi wrote:
Thinking Black and White is thinking concrete, meaning they only see what's right and wrong. I meant that you guys think if it is not real nothing is wrong with it but thinking shades of grey is thinking abstractly. Seeing that it's not real people but the content of child pornography is there. You guys still don't understand what I mean by taking away their rights; children are viewed as sexual objects not humans. It may not be real children but the content of children being viewed as sexual OBJECTS is there.


Sex dolls are objects made to look like women. They're made so that you can **** them. They are the purest definition of sex objects. Should they be illegal too?

You're also ignoring the fact that some of the characters depicted in the material might not be children at all despite LOOKING like children. Because art does not obey the traditional laws of this world, ANYTHING is possible. This "anything" makes applying laws to it very tricky.

mistress_reebi wrote:
Quote:
Gay porn is SO WRONG. Should it be banned too?


Homosexually is legal and now a days they are viewed as regular humans and their homoerotic pornography is viewed as legal pornography. It shouldn't be banned because homosexuality is legal and society believes there is nothing wrong with homosexuals.


During the middle ages, homosexuality was a sin. Society changes. Do you mean that it's "right" (a very vague term, i know) to discriminate against minorities who do not / can not speak up? (yes this can be classified as a type of discrimination)

I do not believe that something should be banned simply because people claim it is WRONG. I believe something should be banned ONLY if it is PROVEN as being in some way harmful. I don't see that being the case here.

mistress_reebi wrote:
How is this insulting them? Mohawk52 is just speaking the truth, its CHILD PORNOGRAPHY! Even if they aren't real children as I mentioned millions of times the idea of children being in sexual situations is in animated child porn. And I totally agree with what Mohawk just said, think more abstractly and you will start to understand us.


There is still one factor: You cannot determine the exact age of a fictional character. Therefore you are creating a legal gray zone. This legal gray zone would make it VERY dangerous to create pornography with models who could look "young enough" to be though as being under the age of 18 (even if they are older than 18).
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2075
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:25 pm Reply with quote
Ganryu wrote:
There is still one factor: You cannot determine the exact age of a fictional character. Therefore you are creating a legal gray zone. This legal gray zone would make it VERY dangerous to create pornography with models who could look "young enough" to be though as being under the age of 18 (even if they are older than 18).


In all fairness though, this is about things that are far more clear cut. Those who are fans of loli usually are pretty strict about what is and what isn't loli, tenacious enough to the point that they say that "if it's got tits, it's not loli."

This is about the depiction of children being sexually abused who are CLEARLY underage, so that gray zone argument isn't so likely to apply.
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Woko



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:58 am Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:
Ganryu wrote:
There is still one factor: You cannot determine the exact age of a fictional character. Therefore you are creating a legal gray zone. This legal gray zone would make it VERY dangerous to create pornography with models who could look "young enough" to be though as being under the age of 18 (even if they are older than 18).


In all fairness though, this is about things that are far more clear cut. Those who are fans of loli usually are pretty strict about what is and what isn't loli, tenacious enough to the point that they say that "if it's got tits, it's not loli."

This is about the depiction of children being sexually abused who are CLEARLY underage, so that gray zone argument isn't so likely to apply.


Okay, so I'll ask you the same question like mistress_reebi: you think that depicting fictional children having sex is so bad it should be banned?

And now, because I don't agree with your way of thinking (what is CLEARLY underage for you isn't necessary clearly underage for someone else), let me give an example. A friend of mine is 18, but not very developed - looks very young & got almost no tits at all. Hell, with some care she could look like 14, even 13. Now judging from her looks you would say it is a child porn, but it only LOOKS like one cause she's 18 so it's completely legal. Completely legal because she can decide on her own; she can look like a 10-yr-old and it still be completely legal.
So what's my point? If you wanted to decide by looks (and by what else can you decide the age of a _fictional_ character)
you would also have to go thru all legal porn and ban everything that _looks like_ child porn. You would have committees that would tell artists "Draw this line one milimeter to the left or it'll be child porn" or "One centimeter smaller breasts and you're under arrest!" Now if that is your ideal future?
(btw all this talking is completely useless because once Bush decides to ban it, he'll simply say it "supports terrorism" and no brave American will dare say a word because it will be anti-american)
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2075
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:49 am Reply with quote
Woko wrote:
Godaistudios wrote:
Ganryu wrote:
There is still one factor: You cannot determine the exact age of a fictional character. Therefore you are creating a legal gray zone. This legal gray zone would make it VERY dangerous to create pornography with models who could look "young enough" to be though as being under the age of 18 (even if they are older than 18).


In all fairness though, this is about things that are far more clear cut. Those who are fans of loli usually are pretty strict about what is and what isn't loli, tenacious enough to the point that they say that "if it's got tits, it's not loli."

This is about the depiction of children being sexually abused who are CLEARLY underage, so that gray zone argument isn't so likely to apply.


Okay, so I'll ask you the same question like mistress_reebi: you think that depicting fictional children having sex is so bad it should be banned?
If it's detrimental enough, it should be considered.
Quote:


And now, because I don't agree with your way of thinking (what is CLEARLY underage for you isn't necessary clearly underage for someone else), let me give an example. A friend of mine is 18, but not very developed - looks very young & got almost no tits at all. Hell, with some care she could look like 14, even 13. Now judging from her looks you would say it is a child porn, but it only LOOKS like one cause she's 18 so it's completely legal.
Kind of a useless example unless she's actually in a porn film...
Quote:
Completely legal because she can decide on her own; she can look like a 10-yr-old and it still be completely legal.
So what's my point? If you wanted to decide by looks (and by what else can you decide the age of a _fictional_ character)
you would also have to go thru all legal porn and ban everything that _looks like_ child porn. You would have committees that would tell artists "Draw this line one milimeter to the left or it'll be child porn" or "One centimeter smaller breasts and you're under arrest!" Now if that is your ideal future?
That's rather unrealistic, at best...
Quote:

(btw all this talking is completely useless because once Bush decides to ban it, he'll simply say it "supports terrorism" and no brave American will dare say a word because it will be anti-american)

Even as somebody who's fairly conservative, I balk at that. It's not very likely to happen due to the fact that it can't even be remotely linked to terrorism - now if it were terrorists drawing them... then why would they bother making a living as a terrorist? Too much money to be made to the ones who buy loli porn. Laughing

Kidding aside, let me pose a counter question/argument to you.

Media does indeed influence our actions... Violent video games may not cause others to go out and kill people... but I've seen/experienced enough to state that violent videogames do cause people to be more aggressive. I've seen porn addiction that led from porn magazines to elevate to hiring prostitutes to near rape for sexual satisfaction.

There are others that admit that they never considered sex with a child until they started looking at loli porn... got addicted and derived so much pleasure from it and fantasized about it so much that they bordered on losing their self control. I think there are a few people out there who do get to that point.

So let's just say for argument's sake that it will indeed entice others to molest children for just a moment. Free speech rights vs. the rights of children not to be molested? How many children is it worth? 10 kids, a hundred, ten thousand?

Granted, there are those who argue correlation doesn't equal causation. It concerns me a little though. At what point do you stop arguing correlation and start looking at it as a possible cause?

Even if a large percentage of those who look at the stuff never take it past a certain level, there should be a concern about those who will. Frankly, without evidence that it provides something productive and beneficial, I'd rather consider doing without it.
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Woko



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:34 am Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:
Woko wrote:
Godaistudios wrote:
Ganryu wrote:
There is still one factor: You cannot determine the exact age of a fictional character. Therefore you are creating a legal gray zone. This legal gray zone would make it VERY dangerous to create pornography with models who could look "young enough" to be though as being under the age of 18 (even if they are older than 18).


In all fairness though, this is about things that are far more clear cut. Those who are fans of loli usually are pretty strict about what is and what isn't loli, tenacious enough to the point that they say that "if it's got tits, it's not loli."

This is about the depiction of children being sexually abused who are CLEARLY underage, so that gray zone argument isn't so likely to apply.


Okay, so I'll ask you the same question like mistress_reebi: you think that depicting fictional children having sex is so bad it should be banned?
If it's detrimental enough, it should be considered.
Quote:


And now, because I don't agree with your way of thinking (what is CLEARLY underage for you isn't necessary clearly underage for someone else), let me give an example. A friend of mine is 18, but not very developed - looks very young & got almost no tits at all. Hell, with some care she could look like 14, even 13. Now judging from her looks you would say it is a child porn, but it only LOOKS like one cause she's 18 so it's completely legal.
Kind of a useless example unless she's actually in a porn film...

No, it is an excellent example because it is more or less the same like anime child porn: no child was harmed during creation, but it depicts children having sex (you're concerned about physical appearence, aren't you?). What are you gonna do about it? Check if porn actors look old enough?
Quote:
Quote:
Completely legal because she can decide on her own; she can look like a 10-yr-old and it still be completely legal.
So what's my point? If you wanted to decide by looks (and by what else can you decide the age of a _fictional_ character)
you would also have to go thru all legal porn and ban everything that _looks like_ child porn. You would have committees that would tell artists "Draw this line one milimeter to the left or it'll be child porn" or "One centimeter smaller breasts and you're under arrest!" Now if that is your ideal future?
That's rather unrealistic, at best...

No, it's not. If you want to ban something, you have to clearly state what is acceptable and what is not. In porn it's the age limit, but if you draw an image of, for example, a 14-yr-old in a manga style, take random people and ask em how old the person in the image is, one will say 13, the other 16,other 15 etc. How are you gonna decide? And please no "it's obvious"es, each person is different and especially in this case views of different people may vary a lot.
Quote:
Quote:

(btw all this talking is completely useless because once Bush decides to ban it, he'll simply say it "supports terrorism" and no brave American will dare say a word because it will be anti-american)

Even as somebody who's fairly conservative, I balk at that. It's not very likely to happen due to the fact that it can't even be remotely linked to terrorism - now if it were terrorists drawing them... then why would they bother making a living as a terrorist? Too much money to be made to the ones who buy loli porn. Laughing

"John Stedman, a lieutenant in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department in charge of IP violations, testified in front of the Senate Homeland Security committee that some associates of terrorist groups such as Hezbollah may be involved in copyright violations. According to CNET's Declean McCullagh: 'Even though Stedman's evidence is circumstantial, his testimony comes as Congress is expected to consider new copyright legislation this year. An invocation of terrorism, the trump card of modern American politics, could ease the passage of the next major expansion of copyright powers'." (by slashdot.org)
Yeah, you would be surprised what can be linked to terrorism if someone wants it to be (in this case corporations,**AAs and other *****s)
Quote:


Kidding aside, let me pose a counter question/argument to you.

Media does indeed influence our actions... Violent video games may not cause others to go out and kill people... but I've seen/experienced enough to state that violent videogames do cause people to be more aggressive. I've seen porn addiction that led from porn magazines to elevate to hiring prostitutes to near rape for sexual satisfaction.

There are others that admit that they never considered sex with a child until they started looking at loli porn... got addicted and derived so much pleasure from it and fantasized about it so much that they bordered on losing their self control. I think there are a few people out there who do get to that point.

So let's just say for argument's sake that it will indeed entice others to molest children for just a moment. Free speech rights vs. the rights of children not to be molested? How many children is it worth? 10 kids, a hundred, ten thousand?

Granted, there are those who argue correlation doesn't equal causation. It concerns me a little though. At what point do you stop arguing correlation and start looking at it as a possible cause?

Even if a large percentage of those who look at the stuff never take it past a certain level, there should be a concern about those who will. Frankly, without evidence that it provides something productive and beneficial, I'd rather consider doing without it.


Like mistress_reebi likes to say, nothing is black and white. Anime child porn can serve both good (enjoyment for fans,relief for pedophiles...), both bad (people becoming addicted to it,aggressive or whatever) puroses. The same with violent games, people can cause people to be more aggresive, but they can also serve as relaxation from stress/aggresivity. (That's my case, when I'm angry I go and have a game of Unreal Tournament).
If someone can be influenced by media to actually rape/kill someone, then I have to say he is not normal because commiting such serious crime just after being influenced by media needs seriously mentally unstable person(see, I avoided the work 'lunatic'). Yeah, I believe that the the few exceptions who can't see the difference between fiction and reality can be influenced, but that fact alone can't advocate banning media (not only anime child porn, but also video games, movies...) for everyone! Either you agree that an adult is responsible for his own decisions, or you support a totality telling people how they should decide. Having lived in a totalitarian country for some time I can tell you that (government or whoever) deciding personal matters for an individual is a typical feature of a totalitarian regime, and I watch with horror that the USA is certainly moving towards that direction. (I'm not talking about this anime child porn case, but generally strengthening government power, reduction of civil rights and strong influence of corporations over politicians).
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Hayami



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:29 am Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:
Media does indeed influence our actions... Violent video games may not cause others to go out and kill people... but I've seen/experienced enough to state that violent videogames do cause people to be more aggressive. I've seen porn addiction that led from porn magazines to elevate to hiring prostitutes to near rape for sexual satisfaction.

If there was an unambiguous evidence that violent games increase aggresivity rather than serve the reduction of it, do you think we they still would be legal? Do you think there no one ever tried to research the causation?

Godaistudios wrote:
There are others that admit that they never considered sex with a child until they started looking at loli porn... got addicted and derived so much pleasure from it and fantasized about it so much that they bordered on losing their self control. I think there are a few people out there who do get to that point.

Criminals who "admit" that media caused their deviation (which from their point of view caused their crimes) could be just an excuse, these people are hardly unbiased and even less trustworthy.

Godaistudios wrote:
So let's just say for argument's sake that it will indeed entice others to molest children for just a moment. Free speech rights vs. the rights of children not to be molested? How many children is it worth? 10 kids, a hundred, ten thousand?

If it would be proved that violent games actually increase the chance that an average person who would play these games in natural environment (i mean not just from 100 or 1000 randomly chosen people from which the most would never play these games unless convinced to take part on an experiment for the sake of science and society), then we would have "free speech rights vs. people's rights to live"; how many lifes would it be worth?

Godaistudios wrote:
Granted, there are those who argue correlation doesn't equal causation. It concerns me a little though. At what point do you stop arguing correlation and start looking at it as a possible cause?

Don't you think that the most morders liked either violent games or films that show violence, or books with similar content? How much more correlation do you need? At the same time the amount of loli products in Japan vs. crime rates, inclusive crime rates against children show that the vast majority of loli art consumers (just like the vast majority of these who play violent games) do not become criminals.

Godaistudios wrote:
Even if a large percentage of those who look at the stuff never take it past a certain level, there should be a concern about those who will. Frankly, without evidence that it provides something productive and beneficial, I'd rather consider doing without it.

You would rather "go without it" even though no evidence of harm provided?


And as addition to my last post -
do you think that Ashcroft & Co. would not provide a research that testifies an overall negative impact of virtual child pornography? (I'm even not talking about loli hentai, the subject included even photorealistic depictions.)
( http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=00-795 )


Also i would like to explain what really bugs me about all this "Isn't lolicon hentai child porn?".
While it's perfectly fine that some people see lolicon as child porn, among loli haters as well as among loli fans, you can't force everyone to use the term "child pornography" or/and deny the possibility that there are people who do not see the characters as depiction of (real) children. No one has the right to say "Come on, it IS a hat/just a box, you aren't honest if you say that you see a boa or a sheep there."
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2075
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:04 pm Reply with quote
Hayami wrote:

Godaistudios wrote:
Even if a large percentage of those who look at the stuff never take it past a certain level, there should be a concern about those who will. Frankly, without evidence that it provides something productive and beneficial, I'd rather consider doing without it.

You would rather "go without it" even though no evidence of harm provided?
With the potential for greater harm, and without evidence to show that it's productive and beneficial, I'd rather do without.
Quote:



And as addition to my last post -
do you think that Ashcroft & Co. would not provide a research that testifies an overall negative impact of virtual child pornography? (I'm even not talking about loli hentai, the subject included even photorealistic depictions.)
( http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=00-795 )


Also i would like to explain what really bugs me about all this "Isn't lolicon hentai child porn?".
While it's perfectly fine that some people see lolicon as child porn, among loli haters as well as among loli fans, you can't force everyone to use the term "child pornography" or/and deny the possibility that there are people who do not see the characters as depiction of (real) children. No one has the right to say "Come on, it IS a hat/just a box, you aren't honest if you say that you see a boa or a sheep there."


A dictionary provides a definition of words. In order to communicate, society as a whole has enough intelligence to call an orange, an orange, a car, a car, and a dog, a dog.

If somebody came up to you, had a banana in his left hand and said it was his phone, you'd probably look at them as if they'd lost it. The reality they percieve usually indicates something known as a mental disorder. Society DOES have the right to define its terms in order to function properly.

As long as you continue to try to force people into calling a hat a sheep (when the reality is that it really is a hat), I have no purpose in answering you any further.

Even those who defend their right to view loli will admit that it's a form of child porn. They argue it's allowable based on the concept that it's fictional. They argue that no child was exploited directly. While I don't disagree that a child wasn't harmed directly, I do argue that the concept and intent behind it is the same. I postulate that as long as any form of child porn is around, fictional or otherwise, it only serves to increase the number of molestations that occour.

To those that try to use logic to state that it's not a cause because molestation would occour even without it, let me submit something to you. That's like saying cars aren't a cause of pollution because pollution was around before cars were. I believe that causation can come from more than one source, and it certainly should be considered as a possible cause.

Anyway, I'm not sure I have anything left to say on the subject myself. I'll leave it at that.
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Tempest
I Run this place.
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Joined: 29 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:21 pm Reply with quote
This is getting silly.

At this point, neither side in this discussion is really listening to the other...

-t
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