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Ganryu



Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Should this "art", as you call it, be exhibited in all of the more high browed exhibition halls in say London, Paris, or New York? I'm sure it would get rave reviews by the art critics.


Why is that even relevant to this discussion?

Mohawk52 wrote:
I don't consider you as an "opponent". I'm not here to fight with anyone. If you feel insulted, and that you must defend the existance of child porn, in any form, then I must come to the conclusion that you must be of that same desire. If the shoe fits........ Razz But please do stay at home with your "art" and away from school, and park playgrounds. Confused


Well what is being defended here is not child porn, but defending something from being defined as something which it is not. For example, suppose that someone comes up and claims that consensual sex between two adults should be classified as rape by the male. If i now protested this decision, would i be in support of rape?

What if someone wanted to juridically define coca cola so that it counted as a drug and would fall under drug regulations. If i protest that decision, would i be in support of hard drugs?
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-gecko-



Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Near Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:01 am Reply with quote
Hayami wrote:
Why foul?

Are there any statistcs about relation between being admitted(and not "found to be" just after commiting a crime) loli fans, such as authors of doujinshi or avid loli hentai collectors/buyers and crimes against children?


Let's see, there is the confessed murderer in Japan. There are numerous reports of child rapist/murderers in the US; currently a manhunt is underway for one as I type this.

Granted, I have no conclusive proof that lolicon fans commit these crimes. I also have no difinitive proof that a drunk driver is going to run down my children. I have no difinitive proof that they will not get drunk as teenagers and do something wrong, etc... I do know that I can safegaurd my children by knowing where they are at all times. I can deny them access to alcohol also. Although alcohol is not a dangerous thing in itself (like lolicon) I don't want it effecting the life of my children. I do not consider that discrimination; only parenting. I'm sorry if you do not see it my way. I do have children to raise. I do plan to raise them to be open minded, so they can make their own decisions about these very things on their own, but as they are children now and my responsibility...
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Woko



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:54 am Reply with quote
-gecko- wrote:
Hayami wrote:
Why foul?

Are there any statistcs about relation between being admitted(and not "found to be" just after commiting a crime) loli fans, such as authors of doujinshi or avid loli hentai collectors/buyers and crimes against children?


Let's see, there is the confessed murderer in Japan. There are numerous reports of child rapist/murderers in the US; currently a manhunt is underway for one as I type this.


If someone is found guilty of a crime, it is a man's nature to blame it on someone else. It wasn't me, someone else made me do it, watching porn made me do it, I couldn't resist the voices in my head... You can't take for granted everything the convicts say. Yeah, the connection is certainly worth investigating, but don't ban all loli hentai because some sick murderers had it at home.

-gecko- wrote:
Granted, I have no conclusive proof that lolicon fans commit these crimes. I also have no difinitive proof that a drunk driver is going to run down my children.(...)


You have a definite proof that alcohol increases your reaction time, worsens your coordination etc., therefore it is forbidden/restricted to drunk drive in many countries.
On the other hand you have the fact that some murderers collected anime child porn, which can as well mean that sick murderers collect various things (even distantly) related to their obsession.

You are of course free to tell your kids what they shouldn't watch, but please let other people decide for themselves.
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Hayami



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:49 am Reply with quote
-gecko- wrote:
Hayami wrote:
Why foul?

Are there any statistcs about relation between being admitted(and not "found to be" just after commiting a crime) loli fans, such as authors of doujinshi or avid loli hentai collectors/buyers and crimes against children?


Let's see, there is the confessed murderer in Japan. There are numerous reports of child rapist/murderers in the US; currently a manhunt is underway for one as I type this.

Granted, I have no conclusive proof that lolicon fans commit these crimes. I also have no difinitive proof that a drunk driver is going to run down my children. I have no difinitive proof that they will not get drunk as teenagers and do something wrong, etc... I do know that I can safegaurd my children by knowing where they are at all times. I can deny them access to alcohol also. Although alcohol is not a dangerous thing in itself (like lolicon) I don't want it effecting the life of my children. I do not consider that discrimination; only parenting. I'm sorry if you do not see it my way. I do have children to raise. I do plan to raise them to be open minded, so they can make their own decisions about these very things on their own, but as they are children now and my responsibility...

I don't see how the alkohol example is related to lolicon.

A drunk driver is a danger since it is proven by statistics and research that aklohol affects vigilance, as well as the statistics of car incidents.

There is sure also a research about how alkohol affects children & juveniles, alkohol is a weak drug.

You comparison would make sense only if you said that it's fine, if someone keeps own children far from anyone just who drinks alkohol (not alkoholiker or the one who ever commited a crime and not a person who is drunken right now), or from an average Muslim because some terrorists happen to be Muslims too. Or someone who collects guns or swords or is a member of some weapon club.

There is no proof that lolicon hentai art is dangerous in itself, not any more than some average hentai featuring rape and humilation.

I do feel bitter because trust is very important for me, and you do not provide any real argument why i should be more dangerous for anyone compared with your average Doe Joe, so that there would be a need to warn someone about me. (There is obviously nothing wrong with restricting juveniles' access to loli hentai just like to any hentai, drugs, alkohol and weapons.)
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Trickstr



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 19
Location: Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:19 am Reply with quote
Ganryu wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
Ganryu wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
My veiw is that even if "animated child porn" doesn't encourage anything it should be illgeal because its just SO wrong.


Gay porn is SO WRONG. Should it be banned too?


are you a homophobe then? ;P


No i was giving it as an example. Just like i am disgusted by guro. Yet i don't want guro banned. It was an example.

Trickstr wrote:
Woko wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
My veiw is that even if "animated child porn" doesn't encourage anything it should be illgeal because its just SO wrong.


This is the same view the communist dictators in my country had about dissidents; it's nice that their philosophy is spreading worldwide!


come on, lets be realistic. Not everyone is going to like every law. And if there is a law passed that you don't like it doesn't make the passers of that law dictators.
And besides, I'm sure there are many things you think are just wrong that should be illegal.


Try me.


Rape, Murder, ritual sacrifice, canabalism.

Bad comment.
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Woko



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:00 am Reply with quote
Trickstr wrote:
Rape, Murder, ritual sacrifice, canabalism.

Bad comment.


There is, however, a very small,slight,tiny difference between the things you mentioned and drawings of young people having sex; a difference so unmeasurebly small that you must have missed it. Yeah, the difference is that rape, murder, ritual sacrifase and canabalism (did you mean cannibalism?) results in killing/hurting other people, while watching drawings of young people having sex... results in? Killing, raping someone? I guess now that I have played KGNE I am nearly a murderer. Rolling Eyes
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Hayami



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:43 am Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
There might be an industry voluntary restriction but it's not apparently government legislated.


The article is indeed confusing and badly structured. It has the title "Child porn, if animated, eludes regulators", starts with concern of one person about "small girls" being depicted in hentai and ends with suggestion of other person to restrict access of juveniles (or restrict it some more) to erotic content in general.

So i would not say that the article "suggests" just age restriction for viewers, it's merely Prof. Sonoda's suggestion, while Mitsue Kondo suggests "stronger regulation of pornographic animation featuring young girls" (whatever this "stronger regulation" means).

I can't find the Japanese Criminal Code now, could anyone post a link to it? (I know, there was an English version of it online)

Mohawk52 wrote:
Did I mention masterbation?

You did not mentioned masterbation of the hentai fans you are talking about? Anyone can check your post ( animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=167898#167898 ) and see what i mean.

What does have Freud to do with the current topic? I think if he lived in our time, he would see the complexity of deviances in modern world and not just give a simplified explaination.

Mohawk52 wrote:
I don't consider you as an "opponent". I'm not here to fight with anyone.

Opponent does not neccessary mean an enemy, it can be just someone who represents an opposite view in a debate. One can have respect to an opponent too.

Mohawk52 wrote:
I don't defend lust in any form at all.

But you adjudge just loli hentai art.

Mohawk52 wrote:
And just what is child porn, whether animated, or real, good for anyway?

Didn't i explain it few times already?
OK, i'll try to structure it as good as i can, for 3 different target groups:

1. Pedophilia existed much longer than lolicon hentai. Pedophilia will not disappear even if you manage to eliminate all hentai completely. Loli hentai art provides relief for these who are attracted to children sexually.

2. It provides something better, more perfect, so that many of these who otherwise would be interested in children lose their interest or even never develop it.

3. It has the same function as regular hentai, featuring just especially pure and innocent girls who do NOT represent real children (basicly belong to another species, like all these catgirls). Obviously hentai has the function of stress reliefing medium in modern world. In Japan the level of stress seems to be especially high, just like the suicid rate.

Mohawk52 wrote:
Should this "art", as you call it, be exhibited in all of the more high browed exhibition halls in say London, Paris, or New York?

I guess any hentai ( not just ecchi ) would would be not welcome in galleries. And yes, many western people hate even lolicon innuendo, not only hentai. But is it something new? Everyone knows it. But it seems, even western people become more tolerant. (I could name at least 2 big anime forums that are more tolerant to lolicon than ANN.)

Mohawk52 wrote:
If you feel insulted, and that you must defend the existance of child porn, in any form, then I must come to the conclusion that you must be of that same desire. If the shoe fits........

What kind of argument is this?
Is defending of lolicon hentai any more of an "evidence" for lusting after (real) children than just liking lolicon hentai? I think you missed the target, <sarcasm>you should save this insult for one of the kind people, who defend lolicon even though they don't like it.</sarcasm>

Mohawk52 wrote:
But please do stay at home with your "art" and away from school, and park playgrounds.

Rolling Eyes
<sarcasm>/me checks where's the nearest nursery, so i can spread my favorite loli hentai there</sarcasm>


Last edited by Hayami on Mon May 30, 2005 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Trickstr



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 19
Location: Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:35 am Reply with quote
Woko wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
Rape, Murder, ritual sacrifice, canabalism.

Bad comment.


There is, however, a very small,slight,tiny difference between the things you mentioned and drawings of young people having sex; a difference so unmeasurebly small that you must have missed it. Yeah, the difference is that rape, murder, ritual sacrifase and canabalism (did you mean cannibalism?) results in killing/hurting other people, while watching drawings of young people having sex... results in? Killing, raping someone? I guess now that I have played KGNE I am nearly a murderer. Rolling Eyes


I was explaning the principle not the degree. And I'm sorry for not spelling it right, but I don't see how that is relevent.
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Woko



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:55 am Reply with quote
Trickstr wrote:
Woko wrote:
Trickstr wrote:
Rape, Murder, ritual sacrifice, canabalism.

Bad comment.


There is, however, a very small,slight,tiny difference between the things you mentioned and drawings of young people having sex; a difference so unmeasurebly small that you must have missed it. Yeah, the difference is that rape, murder, ritual sacrifase and canabalism (did you mean cannibalism?) results in killing/hurting other people, while watching drawings of young people having sex... results in? Killing, raping someone? I guess now that I have played KGNE I am nearly a murderer. Rolling Eyes


I was explaning the principle not the degree. And I'm sorry for not spelling it right, but I don't see how that is relevent.


The principle is that you want to make something illegal _without a reason_ (it is just SO wrong), but the things you mentioned (murder,rape...) are illegal for a very good reason (so that you don't get killed/raped as soon as you leave your house).
Correct spelling is important for us foreigners who don't know if it was a mistype or an English word we don't know ~_^
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mistress_reebi



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 735
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:04 pm Reply with quote
Woko wrote:
mistress_reebi wrote:
You guys think too black and white, you should start seeing shades of grey; just because they aren't real people doesn't mean the same content of child pornography is still there. Also in the media teens having sex are actually played by young adults who look like teenagers.


I didn't quite get what you're trying to say, but it's prolly because english isn't my first language.
Did you mean that porn played by young-looking adults is ok? It so, why are you against anime child porn, which was also done by adults?
And if you meant that young-looking adults shouldn't be allowed to play in porn (which I hope wasn't your point), than I have nothing more to say.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think your two main arguments are:
1) "Anime child porn takes away real people's rights." It doesn't, you don't have to watch it, noone's threatening you by it or whatever. If you don't like it don't watch it but don't prevent other people from watching it.
2) "Anime child porn is dangerous cause it encourages people to watch real child porn/rape&kill children or whatever." For first, it hasn't been proven by any independent study so it's only our theory. And If, I say IF it was true and you would want to ban anime child porn because of it, you would also have to ban murder stories, video games and almost everything that portrays doing something bad.


Thinking Black and White is thinking concrete, meaning they only see what's right and wrong. I meant that you guys think if it is not real nothing is wrong with it but thinking shades of grey is thinking abstractly. Seeing that it's not real people but the content of child pornography is there. You guys still don't understand what I mean by taking away their rights; children are viewed as sexual objects not humans. It may not be real children but the content of children being viewed as sexual OBJECTS is there.

Quote:
Gay porn is SO WRONG. Should it be banned too?


Homosexually is legal and now a days they are viewed as regular humans and their homoerotic pornography is viewed as legal pornography. It shouldn't be banned because homosexuality is legal and society believes there is nothing wrong with homosexuals.


Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
As for Child porn, whether animated, or real, morally and ethically, it's only purpose is the feed a desire that is considered mentally sick and perverted in the worst way.


How about to stop insulting loli art fans? I realize that, unlike in some other forums, in ANN there is no pro-loli majority. Yet, please consider the feelings of your opponets as well as the level of the discussion you affect through bashing your opponents. Do you want this thread to go the path of flames and be locked?


How is this insulting them? Mohawk52 is just speaking the truth, its CHILD PORNOGRAPHY! Even if they aren't real children as I mentioned millions of times the idea of children being in sexual situations is in animated child porn. And I totally agree with what Mohawk just said, think more abstractly and you will start to understand us.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2028
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:23 pm Reply with quote
Hayami wrote:

Mohawk52 wrote:
And just what is child porn, whether animated, or real, good for anyway?

Didn't i explain it few times already?
OK, i'll try to structure it as good as i can, for 3 different target groups:

1. Pedophilia existed much longer than lolicon hentai. Pedophilia will not disappear even if you manage to eliminate all hentai completely. Loli hentai art provides relief for these who are attracted to children sexually.
Well, then you state that there is almost no difference between fictional vs. non fictional here. There are also those who argue that it encites some people to go the further step once they are no longer satisfied with fictional art. Since you hold your assertion that it provides relief, can you provide direct evidence of this?
Quote:


2. It provides something better, more perfect, so that many of these who otherwise would be interested in children lose their interest or even never develop it.
Again, can you provide direct proof of this? Just as a thought btw, target group 2 is almost too close to target group 1 to keep them seperated.
Quote:


3. It has the same function as regular hentai, featuring just especially pure and innocent girls who do NOT represent real children (basicly belong to another species, like all these catgirls). Obviously hentai has the function of stress reliefing medium in modern world. In Japan the level of stress seems to be especially high, just like the suicide rate.
And yet with all these so-called "stress relievers", they still have the problems. Doesn't appear that they are doing their job all that well then. Maybe the root of the problem is different, and quite possibly, hentai winds up only working as a placebo at best. Is it possibly more detrimental than helpful?
Quote:


Mohawk52 wrote:
Should this "art", as you call it, be exhibited in all of the more high browed exhibition halls in say London, Paris, or New York?

I guess any hentai ( not just ecchi ) would would be not welcome in galleries. And yes, many western people hate even lolicon innuendo, not only hentai. But is it something new? Everyone knows it. But it seems, even western people become more tolerant. (I could name at least 2 big anime forums that are more tolerant to lolicon than ANN.)
You can always a niche, a subculture that has numerous people in it. You are forgetting that a large forum however, doesn't represent the whole of western civilization.
Quote:


Mohawk52 wrote:
If you feel insulted, and that you must defend the existance of child porn, in any form, then I must come to the conclusion that you must be of that same desire. If the shoe fits........

What kind of argument is this?
Is defending of lolicon hentai any more of an "evidence" for lusting after (real) children than just liking lolicon hentai? I think you missed the target, <sarcasm>you should save this insult for one of the kind people, who defend lolicon even though they don't like it.</sarcasm>

Mohawk52 wrote:
But please do stay at home with your "art" and away from school, and park playgrounds.

Rolling Eyes
<sarcasm>/me checks where's the nearest nursery, so i can spread my favorite loli hentai there</sarcasm>


yeesh... Rolling Eyes
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Woko



Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:07 pm Reply with quote
mistress_reebi wrote:
Woko wrote:
mistress_reebi wrote:
You guys think too black and white, you should start seeing shades of grey; just because they aren't real people doesn't mean the same content of child pornography is still there. Also in the media teens having sex are actually played by young adults who look like teenagers.


I didn't quite get what you're trying to say, but it's prolly because english isn't my first language.
Did you mean that porn played by young-looking adults is ok? It so, why are you against anime child porn, which was also done by adults?
And if you meant that young-looking adults shouldn't be allowed to play in porn (which I hope wasn't your point), than I have nothing more to say.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think your two main arguments are:
1) "Anime child porn takes away real people's rights." It doesn't, you don't have to watch it, noone's threatening you by it or whatever. If you don't like it don't watch it but don't prevent other people from watching it.
2) "Anime child porn is dangerous cause it encourages people to watch real child porn/rape&kill children or whatever." For first, it hasn't been proven by any independent study so it's only our theory. And If, I say IF it was true and you would want to ban anime child porn because of it, you would also have to ban murder stories, video games and almost everything that portrays doing something bad.


Thinking Black and White is thinking concrete, meaning they only see what's right and wrong. I meant that you guys think if it is not real nothing is wrong with it but thinking shades of grey is thinking abstractly. Seeing that it's not real people but the content of child pornography is there. You guys still don't understand what I mean by taking away their rights; children are viewed as sexual objects not humans. It may not be real children but the content of children being viewed as sexual OBJECTS is there.


So children being viewed as sexual objects AND the fact a murderer said something is reason enough to ban anime child porn? Or you have some other abstract reasons?

(btw I know what B&W means, I didn't quite get the teen-looking adults playing porn part)
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Hayami



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:29 pm Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:
Well, then you state that there is almost no difference between fictional vs. non fictional here.
Only in the way how they see it, it is a replacement for real stuff, just as i said. No child is harmed though.

Godaistudios wrote:
There are also those who argue that it encites some people to go the further step once they are no longer satisfied with fictional art.

Yes, they say. But they can't provide a real evidence too.

Godaistudios wrote:
Since you hold your assertion that it provides relief, can you provide direct evidence of this?

Well, that's what i heard numerous times in forums where people are more tolerant to loli stuff and even to these who are sexually attracted to real children but don't act upon it. No, i'll not call names or post links, it would be unfair to these people to so.

Let's say there are both kinds of loli hentai consumers; example of Japan's crime rates against children suggests that it serves rather as relief factor though. Obviously i do not provide evidence, i just explain what are the possible (and according to my experience and feeling real) positive consequences of loli hentai art, i show that there can be be some reason behind statistics like in Japan.

Godaistudios wrote:
Again, can you provide direct proof of this? Just as a thought btw, target group 2 is almost too close to target group 1 to keep them seperated.
I never said i try to provide evidence. S.a. Anyway i do know one site/forum where people are much like this. No evidence, just personal impression.

Godaistudios wrote:
And yet with all these so-called "stress relievers", they still have the problems. Doesn't appear that they are doing their job all that well then. Maybe the root of the problem is different, and quite possibly, hentai winds up only working as a placebo at best. Is it possibly more detrimental than helpful?


My evidence is simply the fact that i probably would be dead now already if not for moe and loli anime & manga. I was in A.S.H. for quite long time and still share their ideals and principles ( like about the right to die in dignity , a basic human right ), and i can't stand people who talk about anyone who commited suicide(or tried) respectless, but i just decided not to talk about it, at least for now and perhaps even until the day i decide to go, and moe helped me to make this decision, i think it was a good one.

Your sarcastic "Doesn't appear that they are doing their job all that well then." is no evidence at all since we don't know what would happen if all loli stuff would disappear.

Godaistudios wrote:
You can always a niche, a subculture that has numerous people in it. You are forgetting that a large forum however, doesn't represent the whole of western civilization.

What makes you believe, i forget it? I can guess some dynamics though. Sure it's not real evidence, just a subjective approximation. ( And sure it is possible that some other western forums, i don't know yet, drift more towards loli-hate. )

Godaistudios wrote:
yeesh...

What?!
But how shall i answer to an obvious insult like this? ( Unfortinatly the mods here are either very tolerant or consider it OK if someone insults loli fans, reporting posts seems to bring nothing -_- ) I answered the only way i could without calling names: with bitter sarcasmis.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 7254
Location: England, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Hayami wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
There might be an industry voluntary restriction but it's not apparently government legislated.


The article is indeed confusing and badly structured. It has the title "Child porn, if animated, eludes regulators", starts with concern of one person about "small girls" being depicted in hentai and ends with suggestion of other person to restrict access of juveniles (or restrict it some more) to erotic content in general.

So i would not say that the article "suggests" just age restriction for viewers, it's merely Prof. Sonoda's suggestion, while Mitsue Kondo suggests "stronger regulation of pornographic animation featuring young girls" (whatever this "stronger regulation" means).

I can't find the Japanese Criminal Code now, could anyone post a link to it? (I know, there was an English version of it online)
First it suggests, but then it doesn't suggest. First you were indecisive, now you're not so sure?

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Did I mention masterbation?

You did not mentioned masterbation of the hentai fans you are talking about? Anyone can check your post ( animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=167898#167898 ) and see what i mean.
Nope, can't see any word "mastubation" there.

Quote:
What does have Freud to do with the current topic? I think if he lived in our time, he would see the complexity of deviances in modern world and not just give a simplified explaination.
I said "get off on it". You read "masturbate". Frued reasoned, controversially
, that all things were sexually motivated. So is that how you "get off on it"? Wink

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
I don't defend lust in any form at all.

But you adjudge just loli hentai art.
No not just that, but anything that depicts a child under the age of 18 being coersely duped into having sex, or forcibly raped.

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
And just what is child porn, whether animated, or real, good for anyway?

Didn't i explain it few times already?
OK, i'll try to structure it as good as i can, for 3 different target groups:

1. Pedophilia existed much longer than lolicon hentai. Pedophilia will not disappear even if you manage to eliminate all hentai completely. Loli hentai art provides relief for these who are attracted to children sexually.
Is this where the word "mastubation" comes in? (no pun intended) Wink

Quote:
2. It provides something better, more perfect, so that many of these who otherwise would be interested in children lose their interest or even never develop it.

3. It has the same function as regular hentai, featuring just especially pure and innocent girls who do NOT represent real children (basicly belong to another species, like all these catgirls). Obviously hentai has the function of stress reliefing medium in modern world. In Japan the level of stress seems to be especially high, just like the suicid rate..
You ARE living in a fantasy world, aren't you? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Should this "art", as you call it, be exhibited in all of the more high browed exhibition halls in say London, Paris, or New York?

I guess any hentai ( not just ecchi ) would would be not welcome in galleries. And yes, many western people hate even lolicon innuendo, not only hentai. But is it something new? Everyone knows it. But it seems, even western people become more tolerant. (I could name at least 2 big anime forums that are more tolerant to lolicon than ANN.)
That I now have no doubt. You should go there and tell them how deeply cruel we are and how unfairly mis-understood those of you who get off on it are. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
If you feel insulted, and that you must defend the existance of child porn, in any form, then I must come to the conclusion that you must be of that same desire. If the shoe fits........

What kind of argument is this?
Is defending of lolicon hentai any more of an "evidence" for lusting after (real) children than just liking lolicon hentai? I think you missed the target, <sarcasm>you should save this insult for one of the kind people, who defend lolicon even though they don't like it.</sarcasm>
They openly say, as I have, that it is disgusting. They, like myself, haven't called it "art". But they, like myself recognise it is less harmful to a real child for the simple reason that it isn't real. I dispise it as I said, and I will never view it. But for those who think child porn is "beautiful art" I would rather have these people "enjoy" it in animation then for real, full stop.
Quote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
But please do stay at home with your "art" and away from school, and park playgrounds.

Rolling Eyes
<sarcasm>/me checks where's the nearest nursery, so i can spread my favorite loli hentai there</sarcasm>
As a parent of two small children I find your <sarcasm> extremely distasteful.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2028
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:15 pm Reply with quote
Hayami wrote:
Godaistudios wrote:
Well, then you state that there is almost no difference between fictional vs. non fictional here.
Only in the way how they see it, it is a replacement for real stuff, just as i said. No child is harmed though.
So you are intentionally being ambiguous in order to use whatever definition you'd like for the sake of convenience?
Quote:


Godaistudios wrote:
There are also those who argue that it encites some people to go the further step once they are no longer satisfied with fictional art.

Yes, they say. But they can't provide a real evidence too.
Granted... but I'm sure there are numerous studies that indicate this. I'm not one for searching them out at the moment.
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Godaistudios wrote:
Since you hold your assertion that it provides relief, can you provide direct evidence of this?

Well, that's what i heard numerous times in forums where people are more tolerant to loli stuff and even to these who are sexually attracted to real children but don't act upon it.
Yeah, no bias there at all....
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No, i'll not call names or post links, it would be unfair to these people to so.
So you are actually basing your statement on the assertions of others... that not only have a vested interest in it - because it's what they want, but nothing is based on scientific evidence.
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Let's say there are both kinds of loli hentai consumers; example of Japan's crime rates against children suggests that it serves rather as relief factor though. Obviously i do not provide evidence, i just explain what are the possible (and according to my experience and feeling real) positive consequences of loli hentai art, i show that there can be be some reason behind statistics like in Japan.
So it's just an inconclusive statement based upon feelings, nothing objective there either?
Quote:


Godaistudios wrote:
Again, can you provide direct proof of this? Just as a thought btw, target group 2 is almost too close to target group 1 to keep them seperated.
I never said i try to provide evidence. S.a. Anyway i do know one site/forum where people are much like this. No evidence, just personal impression.
Then you shouldn't try to break it down using a method that appears to be based on objective evidences. If it's a personal impression, you should state as much.
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Godaistudios wrote:
And yet with all these so-called "stress relievers", they still have the problems. Doesn't appear that they are doing their job all that well then. Maybe the root of the problem is different, and quite possibly, hentai winds up only working as a placebo at best. Is it possibly more detrimental than helpful?


My evidence is simply the fact that i probably would be dead now already if not for moe and loli anime & manga. I was in A.S.H. for quite long time and still share their ideals and principles ( like about the right to die in dignity , a basic human right ), and i can't stand people who talk about anyone who commited suicide(or tried) respectless, but i just decided not to talk about it, at least for now and perhaps even until the day i decide to go, and moe helped me to make this decision, i think it was a good one.

Your sarcastic "Doesn't appear that they are doing their job all that well then." is no evidence at all since we don't know what would happen if all loli stuff would disappear.
There was no scarcasm intended. Nor did I mean it as evidence. I put forth a different perspective that it might be more detrimental than beneficial and felt that this alternative is worth exploring.
Quote:


Godaistudios wrote:
You can always find a niche, a subculture that has numerous people in it. You are forgetting that a large forum however, doesn't represent the whole of western civilization.

What makes you believe, i forget it? I can guess some dynamics though. Sure it's not real evidence, just a subjective approximation. ( And sure it is possible that some other western forums, i don't know yet, drift more towards loli-hate. )

Godaistudios wrote:
yeesh...

What?!
But how shall i answer to an obvious insult like this? ( Unfortinatly the mods here are either very tolerant or consider it OK if someone insults loli fans, reporting posts seems to bring nothing -_- ) I answered the only way i could without calling names: with bitter sarcasmis.


You assume it was an insult... I meant it more as an exclamation of the silliness that has arisen in the exchanges between you and Mohawk.
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