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REVIEW: Black Butler DVD


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Saturn



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 513
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:20 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

mezzaleonhart wrote:
As for the series being mostly filler, well yeh it is. Until you realise it isn't at all when all the pieces come together towards the end and you're forced to realise the interconnectedness of all the events.

I have always heard filler used as anime stories that are not taken from the manga. I've never really considered original anime to be able to have filler since they have no manga they are based on. Even if it doesn't add to the main ongoing plot, it can't really be filler.

that's kind of a weird definition. Filler is anything that doesn't contribute to the main plot, whether it's in a manga, anime, book, tv show, movie... whatever. It's "filling in space", and is thus "filler".


If we're going to open the can of worms that is season 2, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and say that I think it's a whole lot of fun. Total guilty pleasure.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Saturn wrote:

that's kind of a weird definition. Filler is anything that doesn't contribute to the main plot, whether it's in a manga, anime, book, tv show, movie... whatever. It's "filling in space", and is thus "filler".

So anything in Detective Conan outside of curing him of his affliction is filler?
Considering the original author is creating it, how can you say it's filler? As we saw in Kuroshitsuji, the game given to Ciel in the first chapter by Sir Klaus was obviously pertanent later. That chess game at the start of Chapter 3 lets us see Lau, Chief Randall, & the Italian Vanel who kidnapped Ciel. The "filler" of Sebastian dealing with the staff (I love that "I have moved past anger & am actually impressed" line at Finny) shows us as calm as Sebastian's exterior might be, he was furious at these idiots he is forced to work with daily & it sets up his love of kitties plus all those little times he's seen smiling at Ciel as being more his adoring the kitty claw because it is so soft & not he wants to have sex with Ciel (which I have never gotten out of Sebastian. He is incredibly sexy, but I've never gotten any sort of vibe he wishes to have sex with any of the other characters. He is a beautiful creature, but alien to this world. Very much a preditor. Imagining Sebastian having sex with anyone in this story is like imagining a panther having sex with whatever it's planning to eat. Maybe another demon. The Shinigami he already establish are outside his taste being somewhat divine)

The story with Elizabeth & her mother that finish off Vol 3, fitting in between the Jack the Ripper & Prince Soma's arc introduces the reader to Elizabeth's mother & allows us to see how she views her future son-in-law. In a future story we meet Elizabeth's father (who adores Ciel) & her brother (who hates Ciel). Snake from the Circus arc joins the manor as Ciel's footman.

A title like Case Closed & Black Butler, thus are really somewhat episodic since they are mystery titles like Sherlock Holmes or Ellery Queen.

Usually manga authors refer to what you call filler as side stories or the main story if it is the main characters since any story involving the regular characters can expand on their personality. I think that's really a strength of Kuroshitsuji. As it goes along, we seem to learn more & more about the characters (such as a glimpse of Sebastian's true form)
Saturn wrote:

If we're going to open the can of worms that is season 2, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and say that I think it's a whole lot of fun. Total guilty pleasure.

It just sounds so wrong.
I saw 2-3 different volumes of the manga at Kinokuniya & was so taken with the look of the covers, I wound up buying a pencilboard of Sebastian. I've bought many of the Japanese volumes at Sanseido. What the 2nd season does to Sebastian & Ciel just sounds so wrong.
I will buy, but I bet I will cringe.
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Saturn



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 513
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:22 am Reply with quote
I've never seen Case Closed so I can't comment on that. Also, I'm currently reading the Kuroshitsuji manga right now so I just sort of... ignored... your really spoilery (and unmarked, I might add) commentary on that. However, yes, by definition, if it doesn't contribute to the plot, it's filler.

However, filler isn't necessarily bad. Sidestories can be fun, and if we learn about the characters then they HAVE contributed something, right? Personally I think the filler eps in Black Butler are perfectly fine because I love the characters and don't mind spending more time with them, regardless of the overall pointlessness of the episodes toward the plot or arc. I feel the same way about Season 2; I loved all the characters, so even if it got a little silly and over the top sometimes, it was still fun.

Also, you have to remember that Toboso supported the second season, and even contributed to it in some ways (other than character designs), so I don't see the logic behind being offended by it from that point of view.

Basically, if you haven't seen it at all, I don't get why you would complain about it. It's more than just a premise. Remember what your mom said? Try it, you might like it.

...also not really seeing what the pencilboard/Japanese manga thing has to do with anything. Kuroshitsuji was hugely popular while I was living in Japan, so I first started reading it in an actual Japanese bookstore. Do I win?
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mezzaleonhart



Joined: 13 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:38 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If we're going to open the can of worms that is season 2, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and say that I think it's a whole lot of fun. Total guilty pleasure.


oh yess i totally agree with you on that! :L there is so much to mock that series for though, I was simply trying to say that if anyone tries to moan about the first series, the second is a whole other thing entirely! every minute of that series made me go "wth??", not in a bad way though!! although i have heard A LOT of fangirls moan about it... especially the ending. but yeh i learnt to just suspend disbelief with that series and just have fun with it!

Quote:
mezzaleonhart wrote:
Grell obviously is amazing just as a butler

You have every right to your opinion, but I thought the point was he was a LOUSY butler. He's apparently not all that great a shinigami considering Spears dragged him off & we've not seen him since (hell of a detention he's been given)


I wasnt refering to his skills as a butler, i was refering to his voice actors performance lol. and for your later quote that i made about filler, i was refering to the version of it saturn says. it has been criticised for its episodic nature, as Hope even said in the review "potentially important details come off as filler" until it is made explicitly obvious later on
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Saturn



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:06 pm Reply with quote
mezzaleonhart wrote:
Quote:
If we're going to open the can of worms that is season 2, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and say that I think it's a whole lot of fun. Total guilty pleasure.


oh yess i totally agree with you on that! :L there is so much to mock that series for though, I was simply trying to say that if anyone tries to moan about the first series, the second is a whole other thing entirely! every minute of that series made me go "wth??", not in a bad way though!! although i have heard A LOT of fangirls moan about it... especially the ending. but yeh i learnt to just suspend disbelief with that series and just have fun with it!


That's how I feel about it too xD I can understand people being shocked and even upset about the direction the show took, but if you just take it for what it is and don't expect it to be something else, it's a fun, exciting, sometimes even quite emotionally satisfying show.
What bothers me is that we originally thought that the show wouldn't have Sebastian or Ciel in it at ALL, but then the moment those two showed up people seemed to want to abandon Alois and Claude altogether, and for some reason get an animated version of the Circus arc or something. How much sense does that make? I think Alois and Claude were a pretty good tip off that we were about to see something entirely different, so why get pissed when that's exactly what happened?

...er, anyway. Getting off topic here >_>
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:24 am Reply with quote
Saturn wrote:
I've never seen Case Closed so I can't comment on that. Also, I'm currently reading the Kuroshitsuji manga right now so I just sort of... ignored... your really spoilery (and unmarked, I might add) commentary on that. However, yes, by definition, if it doesn't contribute to the plot, it's filler.

Actually, long ago I learned weird means strange in a supernatural context so I try not to say something's weird when it's just strange. My understanding of the English language doesn't change the majority of the rest of English speakers have no problem "misusing" the word.

Kuroshitsuji is a detective set-up like Miss Marple, etc. Like Case Closed where Shin-ichi is fed a poison which shrinks him to the appearance of a child of about 8 so he is seeking information on the organization that manufactured the poison in the hope of being restored to his proper appeatance, Ciel underwent a horrendous experience which cost him his family so that he has hooked up with Sebastian to destroy those that did this to his family. Your definition of filler means everything not dealing with this is filler when this is simply the set-up, the backstory as to how a child like Ciel has come to serve in such a horrible function for the Queen of England as he performs those duties that are required of him.

Honestly, I can't think of any chapter that can be called filler in the Kuroshitsuji manga. They all expand the characters or carry out Ciel's job in the service of his queen.

I'm also at a loss over your reaction of spoiler. That Elizabeth has family? That the author adds to the cast? Wow. What are the "Z Fighters" but a bunch of rivals Goku beat that joined the show's cast?
Let's not talk about Piccalo or Vegeta because someone has just discovered DBZ & doesn't know they fight alongside Goku eventually? I'm pretty sure I tried not to discuss events outside the 3 volumes currently available in the US from Yen.
Other than my reply to the person who wanted to know how the anime & manga varied. In a way, one can argue the anime "spoiled" the Noah's Ark Circus story by changing Joker into Drossel, etc.
Saturn wrote:
Also, you have to remember that Toboso supported the second season, and even contributed to it in some ways (other than character designs), so I don't see the logic behind being offended by it from that point of view.

The times a manga artist disavows the anime produced from their title are few & far between. Most are ok with whatever's done as long as the check clears. The horror that is Dragonball GT had Akira Toriyama design some of the characters for it. Story has it his wife's protest over Vegeta's moustache was what got that shaved off.
It's more aesthetics.
spoiler[I hear Ciel dies at the end of season 1.]
Sorry, but that is stupid beyond measure if true.
spoiler[I hear there is dispute over Sebastian getting Ciel's soul at the end of season 2. Indeed one rumour I heard is Ciel becomes a demon superior to Sebastian]
Sorry. If true that totally undermines Sebastian's power as a demon & completely violates my sense of fair play.
When one dances, one has to pay the piper.
Did you see the series Reaper? Loved it. It did a pretty good job of keeping an eye on the loopholes of the bargain.
Saturn wrote:
Basically, if you haven't seen it at all, I don't get why you would complain about it. It's more than just a premise. Remember what your mom said? Try it, you might like it.

Because after 50 years, I have a pretty good idea of my tastes?
Because I have 2500 anime dvds & 3300 volumes of manga so I have seen a fair share of anime adptations that have been good & a fair share of pretty bad ones?
I've seen a good number of Dracula variations-realistically all based on 1 book. Some have been good. Some have reeked. I love Alucard in Hellsing even though he is a pretty bad Dracula interpretation. He's a delicious over-powered monster. Sebastian in the manga is pretty much the Big Dog on the block & anything less than that bothers me. Ciel is a little brat & I really don't like him so I'm in Sebastian's side of the gallery.
I said I'm buying the show, but I suspect I will be unhappy with the final product because of the aforementioned aesthetics.
Saturn wrote:
...also not really seeing what the pencilboard/Japanese manga thing has to do with anything.

That I was attracted to the style of the art & the look of the character long before I even knew the name of the story or the plot. Before they announced the anime in Japan & was hoping someone would license it. (I'd love Tsumikabatsu to get licensed, but I don't see that happening)
So I'm going to sign off on Claude?
Quote:
mezzaleonhart wrote:
I wasnt refering to his skills as a butler, i was refering to his voice actors performance lol.

Actually Jun Fukuyama is much more fun as Lelouche. Grelle is nowhere as big/grand/out-there. I loved how Lelouche could go from 0-60 on the panic scale at the slightest hint of turbulence. The commentaries with Fukuyama are also very interesting. Hell, I'd put Yumichika/Bleach as more fun of a character. Gakuen Heaven does a far better job on the double entendre than what I've seen so far out of this anime & same goes for the cross-dressing Princess Princess.
Quote:
mezzaleonhart wrote:
and for your later quote that i made about filler, i was refering to the version of it saturn says. it has been criticised for its episodic nature, as Hope even said in the review "potentially important details come off as filler" until it is made explicitly obvious later on

But this title IS case-by-case episodic & anyone upset by it obviously doesn't understand this is
1-boy/girl/priestess & pet/enslaved demon/monster.
2-solve the next case detective title. Columbo. Murder, She Wrote. Pick your favorite detective series as an example.
Why wouldn't it be episodic? It can really go on as long as the author wishes (look at Case Closed).


Last edited by CCSYueh on Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:03 am Reply with quote
Sorry-double post
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LauraOrganaSolo



Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:26 am Reply with quote
DoktorZetsubou wrote:
Huh. It's a fun watch and all, but I'm accustomed to fan service shows getting more negative reviews on here.

That's because it's not the nth fanservice/harem show. It's not Queen's Blade or Seikon no Qwaser. There is fanservice but it's not absolutely excessive.

It will quite possibly inflict a shota complex on you, though. DAT INNUENDO.
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Saturn



Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 513
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:16 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh, I think you just like to be long-winded and argumentative.

CCSYueh wrote:

Because after 50 years, I have a pretty good idea of my tastes?
Because I have 2500 anime dvds & 3300 volumes of manga


LOL. Everything that needs to be said, has just been said. Rolling Eyes It's amazing that someone who has eleventy million volumes of manga can be so unwilling to try something, but what do I know? I'm pretty much willing to give anything a fair shake.

For the sake of being longer-winded than entirely necessary, allow me to direct you to TvTrope's Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch, which I think you might find relevant to your interests.
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Ryuka32



Joined: 25 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:21 am Reply with quote
Full support and love goes to the Japanese Seiyuus. The english dub, though, has not melted my heart away as I thought it would. I received my DVD set on Jan. 10, and i immediately went to watch it. I skipped ahead to episode 5 with fangirl fever so much that i was shaking, only to be disappointed when i heard "BASSY" come from Grell's mouth. While i am tolerant to the other supporting characters voices, whom i pay no mind to, i was hurt to hear this. It takes just as many syllables to say "SEBBY" as it does "BASSY", which is neither sexy nor funny. I'm afraid that is a little yet strong criticism Daniel Fredrick will receive for letting them convince him to say that. Maylene could have eased up on the accent as it sounded more like she was trying to keep from screaming all the time. Undertaker i will give a pass for now. episode 17 has not come out yet. Cool William's voice actor did an excellent job until he said a certain word, which i would prefer he leave to his seiyuu counterpart. Overall it's mostly the supporting character's lines i have problems with, even those i believe should have been main characters. If you feel the same as I do please reply.
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JacobC
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:43 am Reply with quote
Ryuka32 wrote:
I skipped ahead to episode 5 with fangirl fever so much that i was shaking, only to be disappointed when i heard "BASSY" come from Grell's mouth. While i am tolerant to the other supporting characters voices, whom i pay no mind to, i was hurt to hear this. It takes just as many syllables to say "SEBBY" as it does "BASSY", which is neither sexy nor funny.


Ah~ someone was watching the fansubs for this, I assume. Grell's creepy pet name for Sebastian in Japanese is NOT Sebby or Bassy. It could have been translated however you please, and most fansubs went with "Sebby" for whatever reason. "Bassy" has a more natural ring to it I think, but whatever, it's really not important.

Still, Grell's pet name for the butler, if you listen to the seiyuu, is "Sebas-chan"...get it? Anime hyper So it was not directly translatable.
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Ryuka32 wrote:
Full support and love goes to the Japanese Seiyuus. The english dub, though, has not melted my heart away as I thought it would. I received my DVD set on Jan. 10, and i immediately went to watch it. I skipped ahead to episode 5 with fangirl fever so much that i was shaking, only to be disappointed when i heard "BASSY" come from Grell's mouth. While i am tolerant to the other supporting characters voices, whom i pay no mind to, i was hurt to hear this. It takes just as many syllables to say "SEBBY" as it does "BASSY", which is neither sexy nor funny. I'm afraid that is a little yet strong criticism Daniel Fredrick will receive for letting them convince him to say that. Maylene could have eased up on the accent as it sounded more like she was trying to keep from screaming all the time. Undertaker i will give a pass for now. episode 17 has not come out yet. Cool William's voice actor did an excellent job until he said a certain word, which i would prefer he leave to his seiyuu counterpart. Overall it's mostly the supporting character's lines i have problems with, even those i believe should have been main characters.


Actually "Bassy" is an absolutely appropriate nickname considering the setting. I had an uncle named Sebastian, and my largely British family called him "Bassy", this nickname was used mostly by the men in the family. --And no, they never said it in a sexy way. Affectionate, yes, sexy no. When I heard this nickname coming out of Grell's mouth, I just laughed. It conveys a level of familiarity that would make anyone named Sebastian uncomfortable. Considering how Sebastian feels about Grell, it makes perfect sense. --Worked for me, at least.

BTW, the English come up with absolutely ridiculous men's nicknames, believe me. Names like "Gussy" and "Bippie" and "Binkie". "Bassy" isn't all that bad compared to some of the ones I've heard.

Ryuka32 wrote:
If you feel the same as I do please reply.


Huh? So only people who agree with you can reply?

Sorry, can't. I think the cast made a good go of it. Sure, some of the supporting cast made my eyes roll (ugh, Finny), but mostly they did well enough. I doubt the Funimation has the budget to hire a lot of voice coaches. I actually enjoy being able to watch the characters instead of the subtitles, so I'm enjoying myself.

I will especially enjoy this dub during the second half, when there is scene of a bunch of people singing "God Save the Queen". The really thick Japanese accents during the song took me right out of the show while watching the subtitled version. Bleurgh.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:53 am Reply with quote
Saturn-
I said I'm buying it. IE-Black Butler is making the "Titles I am willing to pay a bit more for to get my hands on sooner" list like Gintama & One Piece vs FMA Brotherhood I'm waiting for a cheaper set on. I even bought the Limited Edition box rather than wait for the regular Black Butler edition.

I suspect from what I've heard & what I've seen in this first set that I will not like it as much as the manga. I even took the time to watch the anime as soon as I received it, even though I've had Moribito, Kodocha set 2, Night Head Genesis, & Ghost Sweeper Mikami set 1 waiting longer to be watched & am halfway thru Phoenix, Red Garden & Persona.
Just because I'm expressing trepidation over how the product will turn out doesn't mean I hate it. It feels like the animators said "This is just an anime for girls. Who cares what we do with it?"

While I prefer the Kuroshitsuji manga to Hetalia's, I feel Bob Shirahata was much more respectful to the original manga in adapting the anime for Hetalia while I feel Shinohara was far less respectful of the original material in adapting Black Butler. There's a dif between grinding out an anime to make a buck & doing it in a way that can add filler without ignoring the entire concept. Not that that can be a bad thing if it's done well.

I really had no idea with what they had done with the Black Butler anime until Season 2 was announced & people started squaking about how they were going to pull it off? They better not blah, blah, blah because blah, blah, blah.
Still, I was happy when Funi announced it. Just because I see flaws in it, doesn't mean I hate it. I happen to feel it could have been better.
Quote:
Still, Grell's pet name for the butler, if you listen to the seiyuu, is "Sebas-chan"...get it? So it was not directly translatable.

Actually, it could have been used & could have worked since most people bothering to buy Kuroshitsuji are familiar with -chan, -kun, etc. Bassy & Sebby just don't really sound all that annoying. It ended up just sounding dumb.
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