Forum - View topicRei Ayanami
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Corrrect to a point. Eva unit 1 is a clone of Lilith. The others are clones of Adam. Well, I say clone, but unit 1 was quite literally grown from Lilith's legs. (which is why they don't regenerate until the Lance is removed) |
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Kyle Smyth
 Posts: 157 Location: Ontario, Canda |
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I never did find out what the complete connection between Rei and Kaoru was.
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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spoiler[They are both angels. Karou is made from Adam, and Rei is made from Lillith and what was left over of Yui. Neither are human. They both have the ability to bring about Third Impact. ] |
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IchigoK90
 Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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I thought that Kaoru was the spoiler[17th angel] and that after him humans or Lilim are the spoiler[18th angel]. Also I didn't get the part in End Of Evangelion when spoiler[Rei/Lilith face EVA Unit 01 and Kaoru comes out of Rei]. How does that happen when Shinji plucked his head off with EVA Unit 01? Another part I didn't get in EoE was when third impact spoiler[occurs everyone starts seeing Rei clones and then they see the person most dear to them (I think) and then they die]. I just didn't get that part. Can anyone explain those two events? Thanks in advance.
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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That's right. spoiler[Kaoru was the Angel of Free Will. Basically, humans are the 18th angel, but they don't have the ability to cause Third Impact. Adam and Lillith essentialy have no souls at this point, so they are unable to act under their own will. Only an angel can merge with them, which allows them to use their soul to move them. When Third Impact occurs, Lilith is basically reverting everyone back to the Hall of Gaff, the place where souls are kept before they are born. The souls return to the Egg of Lilith, basically her womb. ]
spoiler[ It's done to calm Shinji down, since he was freaking out seeing the huge ass Rei. It's not really Kaoru]
spoiler[ Well, there's no one explanation of this. One is, seeing the person most dear to you keeps you calm, makes it easier for Rei to do her work. Another is that, once the barriers break down, you would be able to be one with that person. ] |
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IchigoK90
Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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Thanks Kazuki-san! Theres also this other part I don't get. spoiler[Its the part when Misato is dying from her gunshot wound and then she sees Penpen. Is that really Penpen or is it like the clone Reis.]
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Kyle Smyth
Posts: 157 Location: Ontario, Canda |
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Rei is also the bringer of death. Just before Misato gets hit with an AP missle Rei appears before her.
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IchigoK90
Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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So the Penpen that Misato sees is a Rei clone right?
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Kyle Smyth
Posts: 157 Location: Ontario, Canda |
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Not that I am totally sure but I think the Rei that she sees is just the Rei that exists in her mind. I am not sure whether or not it is a clone of her. Shinji also sees Rei in the first episode just before the third angel appears.
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axion
 Posts: 17 Location: New York |
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1st topic - Rei Ayanami's navel - Embarassingly, I never paid attention to this or noticed it. The possibilities that have been listed are very good, but there are a few things we can't be sure of. Most people refer to Rei as a 'clone', I even believe there is some reference to her as a 'clone' by Gainax/Eva staff in character bios or something, this is kind of an interesting word choice. Here are Dictionary.com's 4 main entries for 'clone': http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=clone
Number's 1-3 are the scientific/biological definitions and number 4 is the modern/laymen's/generalized definition. By the scientific definition, a clone can have only 1 parent (inherit only 1 set of genes) and must be produced asexually. So, Rei is not a clone: she has the genes of both Lillith and Yui (Ikari), she was created from 2 sources, contains an unknown ratio of each one's genes. Most people would have you believe that a clone is anything produced without physical intercourse/conception by 2 parents, this is false, the defining traits of a clone are that it is genetically identical to its 1 parent. In laymen's terms Rei cannot be a clone either: Copies or closely resembles another, imitates closely. The discrepancy here is that this definition implies, by the inclusion of the word 'another', that the clone is still based on only 1 archetype (or by extension, 1 set of genes). Rei is not a clone. She is a genetically engineered combination of unknown amounts of Lillith and Yui. Now the question becomes: So what about her navel, even if she's not a 'clone'? This is far more difficult of a question because we never see or are told how she was made (scientifically). There are hundreds of possibilities that all ride off of the one thing we can be most certain of: she was conceived in a lab. From here, however, she could have been transplanted into a surrogate mother or grown in a 'test tube' (think of the tank of LCL that we see her being regenerated in at least twice). -this paragraph is just me writing the next set of possibilities- -its not all that important- ----------------------------------------------- In either case, there comes another set of possibilites: by virtue of her having some amount of Angel in her, she may have developed at a faster rate, or maybe because she had an unnatural fusion of Angel and human, she took longer to develop, or perhaps she developed in the normal human 9 month period. ----------------------------------------------- So, if Rei was grown in a surrogate mother, she surely would have developed an umbilical cord, because she is human in almost every explicit (appearance, size, anatomy, etc) way, we can safely assume she would produce an umbilical cord in the womb. However if she were grown in a 'test-tube' environment, well, it gets kind of complicated, unecessarily. In older genetic reproduction, a human grown in a lab would have a navel and an umbilical cord, but it was not used in the natural way. Newer technology has allowed scientists to produce replica-womb-tissue (which is what the umbilical cord normally attaches to) and attach the embryo/fetus's umbilical cord to it. So, having said all of this, Rei's navel makes perfect sense, BUT, to me it seems very unlikely that the Evangelion creators would have fact-checked something like this so thoroughly. It would appear that it is unintentional, yet serves a purpose in the plot. 2nd topic - The Angel nailed to the red cross below NERV in Terminal Dogma was Lillith: -She was dripping LCL (her blood), which is the source/essence of all non-Angelic life (namely, humans) -Adam was reduced to a dormant embryonic state immediately before Second Impact, afterwards he was again reduced to this state, but successfully, by SEELE/Gehirn. He was kept in the German branch of Gehirn (which became NERV). -Gendo receives Adam from Kaji in dormant/embryonic state, there is no evidence that Lillith could be reduced to this state. As it must be either Adam or Lillith, its Adam. -Once we have established that Adam is not the Angel in Terminal Dogma, it is clear that the being Rei takes into her chest (from Gendo's right hand) must be Adam, as when Rei is absorbed into Lillith, Third Impact begins (it is the merging of Lillith and Adam that can cause Third Impact). 3rd topic - Seeing Rei before death/Complementation - Rei, as being a humanized embodiment of Lillith, mother of all humans, appears before people (sometimes as the person they loved/wanted/couldn't have, but not always) as/before they die/revert to LCL (one thinks this is to welcome them into heaven/Complementation/eternity as a soul) to force down their AT fields in any way she can. The AT field, as described by Kaoru, is the place in each organism where no one should go/invade/break into (their soul, as a container for their consciousness/mind, basically) unless both want to (a good example from the show would be consensual sex*). One way to get into (and possibly destroy) an AT field is by being loved/loving the person. The other is by overwhelming force: -When Rei appears to Maya Ibuki, she is Ritsuko, because Maya (who was a lesbian) secretly loved Ritsuko**. -Rei first appears to Makoto Hyuuga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_in_Neon_Genesis_Evangelion#First_Lieutenant_Makoto_Hyuuga) as herself then becomes Misato, because in the later episodes we see that he has a strong crush on her (also, his eyebrows move up and down suggestively at this time). -The much debated scene where dozens of Reis appear behind a cowering Shigeru Aoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_in_Neon_Genesis_Evangelion#First_Lieutenant_Shigeru_Aoba) who is then liquified into LCL has a simple explanation. He does not trust or love anyone adequately so his AT field must be forced down. 4th topic - Religious sources for Lillith - - the following is taken from a post I wrote on the IMDb boards for End of Evangelion, its so long that I'll just copy and paste it- ------------------------------------- According to the Jewish section of the Apocrypha, Lillith preceeded Eve as the first woman by an untold number of years. She was created when Adam, after having had sex with a female of every other species and remaining dissatisfied, told god that he envied the other creatures who all had their own mates, their complements. So god fashioned Lillith out of dust for Adam. They were however, terribly incompatible as mates; Both were dominant and assertive. Toward the end of the Lillith saga, it is said that she had a history of rejecting Adam's sexual desires, that she would not submit to him unless she wanted to and even then she would not assume the role of the submissive partner (I'm not making this up either). After one of these incidents she uttered the name of god (which was completely forbidden and can still be seen today, as in Judaism god's name is defined as "unknowable" and "unpronounceable by man," out of respect and glorification), sprouted wings, and left Eden for, as I recall, the Dead Sea. It is notable that her role in Genesis has been wiped from Judaism and Christianity becuase of her dissobeying a male, her independence, assertiveness, refusal to submit to Adam's will blindly, and possibly for what can be considered blasphemying god. Anyway, from this point on she exists as the queen and mother and of all demons and is herself considered to be a demon (a very convenient fate for a woman who differs from the Judeo-Christian model). It is here that the discrepancy must be made, is she really a demon? are her offspring really demons? In my opinion and that of Evangelion's creators, no. If you're wondering where Eve comes in, it is after Lillith, after a woman named Naamah who is almost entirely ignored even here, and after the first Eve, who Adam claims to have found "repulsive," the Eve found in the Old Testament book of Genesis is created. -------------------------------- Note that the subsequent explanation of how Lillith can go from Queen of Demons to mother of life in general, as she is in Evangelion, will not be included here. What else is there? Um, Kaoru and Rei are both microcosmic embodiments of their respectives Angels (Adam and Lillith). Whether or not Kaoru is a "created" angel, as Rei sort of is... I'll leave that alone for now. In the scene where Shinji, in Unit-01, sees Kaoru and is calmed/uplifted, a distinction cannot be made as to whether this is the 'real' Kaoru or not, becuase Adam and Lillith are not mortal, specifically Kaoru says that living or dying makes no difference to him as an Angel. His physical body was crushed/decapitated by Unit-01 but he is not bound by physical/mortal limitations. Toward the end of End of Evangelion, Rei/Kaoru, standing before a giant wooden gate (perhaps the gate to the Hall of Gaff? pure speculation) tell Shinji that they will continue to exist as the hope that people will someday understand each other (one of the biggest themes of Evangelion) in his heart. I think that's enough info for one post  .
*This is a reference to the scene where Shinji and Asuka, outside of temporal and physical reality, during Complementation, are in Misato's college apartment, where she and Kaji have been having sex for multiple days (we are first told about this incident by Ritsuko after Kaji returns and there is sexual tension between Misato and him, she also tells us that it was soon after this that Misato and Kaji broke up). Misato, speaking to both of them then Shinji alone says "this is the side of me that you've never seen, the side of me present when two souls are as one." Of course she means when two people are having consensual sex. **There is some evidence that Ritsuko is a lesbain too, many times she is commented on for avoiding or rejecting men for her work; she also never has a true boyfriend (although, she was having an affair with Gendo and did show some love-interest in Kaji). I think the safest assumption is that she's bisexual and has a fear of love - really the possible subsequent rejection by a loved one - because of her mother (much the same as Shinji, Asuka, Misato, Gendo, and possibly Toji, Hikari, and Rei). |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Did you write it just the opposite way?
I'd like to see one. Cite your reference from a scientific journal, please. |
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axion
Posts: 17 Location: New York |
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I don't get what you're first question at all, as to your request:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurebody/dc8d9371b1d75010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html http://www.religioustolerance.org/abowomb.htm http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/ectogenesis/index1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectogenesis http://www.ncpa.org/iss/hea/2003/pd121603c.html This technology really does exist, please don't act belligerent without giving me a chance to respond. I seem to have made an error in implying that artificial womb technology concerning humans was much further along or had been successfully used - I thought this was true, but see that it is not - and I apologize. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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What I meant was using an umbilical cord should be "natural."
Well, yeah, of course I knew that. You'd better check out my background.
How could I "not giving you a chance to respond?" Didn't you just write this very post? 
The Religious Tolerance site, the Stanford site, and Wiki say little info. I'll concentrate on the three scientists listed on NCPA (which includes the one interviewed by PopSci).
I didn't know he transfered to Temple. The reported event was published on Zentralbl. Gynakol. (in German) in 1997 when he was in Geburtshilflich-gynakologische Univ. Klinik Graz/Osterreich. It was a case report, not a research article.
Em, this one is even older, published in Nippon Sanka Fujinka Gakkai Zasshi (日本産科婦人科学会雑誌; Journal of Japan Society of Obstetrics and Gynecology) in 1992. They incubated a lamb for three weeks -- sounds promising, but there was no follow-up research. A pity.
Dr. Liu is the only person mentioned by NCPA who continues her research until today. She has done quite a lot of endometrial coculture (incubating different tissue types together, trying to mimic the natural environment), but no artifical womb created by scaffolding was reported. According to PopSci, she chose not to publish her work due to possible ethical disputes (my search shows there's no new publication since 2002). This is very true -- even animal experiments could cause one's lab destroyed by animal rights extremists. Personally, I'm really interested to see her most recent data.
Well, that's why I responded that way. The technology is far from clinical trials. Even a successful animal model has not been established. Don't worry -- we all make mistakes.
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Azathrael
 Posts: 745 |
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Is it just me, or did this seriously need a spoiler tag? I'm watching Evangelion for the first time right now and I don't appreciate this at all. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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If one looks at the actual process of cloning, it is done by replacing the chromosomes of an egg with the chromosomes of the donor. Then the modified egg is then replanted into a womb to naturally gestate into whatever living creature the said egg and chromosomes originated. In other words a placenta with umbilical so when birth successfully occurs and the cord is cut, the scar is left. This scar is what is called the navel, or “belly button”. All the Reis had to be cloned this way. I know they all looked the same age in that fluid but it’s anime after all.
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