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ampersand



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 31
Location: Brampton, ON

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:04 pm Reply with quote
In other news, the sky is blue.


People actually need to be told this stuff? Wow. What crazy idiots.

Sure, I could have gone out of my way to state something along the lines that people who didn't get Answerman's specific rant/tirade are all crazy, and they are idiots for thinking that he was targetting everyone who downloaded fansubs. But I didn't, and while I could have done it, I shouldn't have needed to do it.

Nicely done, ANN! They've been PWNED.
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lazuline



Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 66
Location: Park Slope

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:08 pm Reply with quote
Thank you ANN, for somewhat attempting reparations towards your readers. I'm glad you care about us. After this post, I think I'll stop complaining =P (A small victory is enough for me...someone else can take up the torch =P)

However, this statement has yet to be retracted:

Quote:

Real anime fans support the shows they love by buying the legitimate DVD release. Period.


I don't think dissenters would have had too much of a problem with Zach's comments if this gross generalization hadn't been included. I understand ANN's vested interest in support of the sale of anime and related merchandise, but a comment like that is a bit over the top.


Last edited by lazuline on Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Crimsonwolf



Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:12 pm Reply with quote
How is there anything wrong with that satatement? How can you be a fan of something and not support it? You people that think you are 'supporting' an anime and not spending some cash on it to prove it are in for a rude awakening when the people you 'support' stop making all their wonderful shows.
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appleturbo



Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:18 pm Reply with quote
IMHO i liked Ms. Answerman better she was nicer when she was being mean and I looked forward to reading her lay the smack down each week. Very Happy

Mr. Answerman I can miss it and no biggie.
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lazuline



Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 66
Location: Park Slope

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:20 pm Reply with quote
Crimsonwolf wrote:
How is there anything wrong with that satatement? How can you be a fan of something and not support it? You people that think you are 'supporting' an anime and not spending some cash on it to prove it are in for a rude awakening when the people you 'support' stop making all their wonderful shows.


if you need an explanation:

Quote:

This statement is blatantly fallacious. A clear equivocation achieved by paralleling the legitimacy of one's fandom to the legal legitimacy of the anime that the fan views. This logic is commonly used in marketing products, a tactic that sells the product on the basis that the purchase of the product will include the consumer into an exclusive group.



A better quote:

"There are no "real" anime fans. Some express what they consider their love for a series by building impressive(and expensive) collections of DVDs. Others might simply download or rent(and burn =P) the shows they love. Personally, I exclusively buy import manga(because censorship and localization of humor isn't my thing) and exclusively pirate the raw or more likely fansubtitled corresponding anime adaptation (Since among my peer group I'm the only one who is Japanese-empowered). There are endless combinations of piracy and legitimacy and even more when you consider the myriad of anime related merchandise like toys, wall scrolls, video games, stationary, clothing(Personally, I have wall scrolls but I draw the line at clothing =P),etc. But in the end, what matters is not the love of a collection, but the social environment that anime fandom provides. Whether it be on forums, conventions, or simply among peers, Love for anime is best expressed through hours of discussion on the exploits of our favorite two-dimensional protagonists. Not a checkbook. Period.

Ok, I'm done... really... =P
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SuperOnizuka



Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 421
Location: When I look At the World- New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:23 pm Reply with quote
lazuline wrote:
Thank you ANN, for somewhat attempting reparations towards your readers. I'm glad you care about us.

However, this statement has yet to be retracted:

Quote:

Real anime fans support the shows they love by buying the legitimate DVD release. Period.


I don't think dissenters would have had too much of a problem with Zach's comments if this gross generalization hadn't been included. I understand ANN's vested interest in support of the sale of anime and related merchandise, but a comment like that is a bit over the top.


One, that is Zac's opinion. Second, I don't think that it needs to be retracted, in fact as I read through Zac's passage on the subject I was cheering him on.

I will not generalize and say all the people who download fansubs are cheap lazy people, cause then I would be calling myself that too. I download anime, but I also buy them once they are released onto DVDs. Since I am a fan, I support the companies who licensed them who paid for the licensed from the animation studio who made them. In turn, giving, at the minimum, some money towards to the actual creators.

However, I do agree that fandom is also defined as conversations of length, lazuline. But it is also support, financially and the like, that also defines fandom of anything.

Entertainment shouldn't be seen as our god given right, even if those in Japan get to see it for "free" on their television sets. Food, decent living, water, air, shelter, and education are our god given rights, not something that we like to watch. Those five, should be the ones that everyone should be clamoring about, instead of "fansubs ...."
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Steroid



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 329
Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:37 pm Reply with quote
So, as I understand it, if you download fansubs, that's one thing, but if you try to justify it, that's despicable and hypocritical. That seems to me to be a cheap way of debating a point. Anything a downloader says in his or her own defense only adds fuel to your argument that they're rationalizing. I'm one of the people who thinks anime should be free. I've made my case for fansubs in this thread (well, bootlegs, but it all applies). But according to this syllogism, I must not actually believe any of that, but instead just made it up to justify something I know is wrong. Very Kantian.

If you think anime shouldn't be free, fine. It's a set of values that is different than mine. We can debate on which is more applicable. However, the fact that my values and my logic, practically applied, result in a material benefit to me does not, in and of itself, invalidate either. And I think any attempt to discredit an argument on those grounds smacks of intimidation and a perverse puritanism.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9575
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:42 pm Reply with quote
Crimsonwolf wrote:
How is there anything wrong with that satatement? How can you be a fan of something and not support it?

Most soccer-playing kids in Brazilian slums regard Pelé as a living God, yet few could afford any merchandise related to him. The only thing they could afford in order to show their support and gratitute of Pelé's inspiration is to become the next Pelé by practicing soccer.
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oe



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:43 pm Reply with quote
The fact that this spurred enough controversy to require an editorial in response is somewhat surprising to me. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the strength of opinions in the anime community. I agreed with most of what Zac said, and wasn't bothered by the harsher tone of his response. That said, there are clearly fans of anime whose primary way of supporting the industry is not buying DVDs but watching the Anime Network, or G4's Anime Unleashed, or Cartoon Network's hundredth airing of Bebop. All of which might not require any money spent (aside from the cable bill-- thanks Moms and Pops). Or going to the movie theater to watch Howl or Steamboy. Still, Answerman's point remains that there are legitimate ways to watch anime and other ways that are not necessarily legitimate, regardless of their legality. And he hardly deserves to be crucified for expressing his opinion in his own column.
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Drewpy83



Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Green Bay,WI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:49 pm Reply with quote
People who watch fansubs that don't go out and buy some DVD's are stealing. That simple. New Anime gets produced because of the money generated from fans. Thats the reason Anime is made, its a form of entertainment. They are made to make money. If everyone just watched fansubs and never spent a dime, where would that put the industry. I agree with Zac and think these people need to get a job and support this great art form.
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ACDragonMaster



Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:52 pm Reply with quote
Thank you so much for posting this! It was sorely needed!

While I avoid bittorrent for my own reasons (largely due to bandwidth limit and a dislike of being a leech), I do watch some series fansubbed that I've gotten from friends. Often they're series that aren't liscenced (in some cases, probably never will be), some liscenced but not released, and every once in a while I get a "OMG you HAVE to see this!!!1!!" of a series that's both liscenced *and* released. However, I do follow the rare practice of deleting most fansubs after I watch them, because if I really want to rewatch them so badly, I might as well go buy the DVDs. (there's one exception to this, but that's because I can't AFFORD the $300+ for the R2 DVDs, though if I could I'd buy them in an instant...)

Also, while I'm not involved in making fansubs, I do help with some scanlations. One liscenced but ongoing series, and one unliscenced, out of print series.

I personally did not find Answerman's column offensive in the least, in fact I agreed with it and was cheering him on. There's a terrible attitude amongst the fandom about fansubs (and scanlations), and frankly it sickens me. I do believe there is a time and a place for fansubs, but I dislike how more and more "fans" now treat them as the end-all, highest point of anime. Instead of groups just trying to do their best to translate a series they think deserves attention, or perhaps providing a translation for fellow fans who don't understand Japanese, it turns into this absurd competition over who can do the flashiest product fastest.

But anyway, I honestly think that there's really nothing offensive about the column, unless of course it happens to hit closer to home than you care to admit, and thank you ANN for taking a stand on it.
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sclassen



Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:53 pm Reply with quote
Welcome to the world of opinion collumns. People aren't always going to like or respect what you have to say. Just that it's your opinion does not gurantee you the right to say it without a negative response.

Honestly, ANN screwed up big time by coming out with this second editorial. All it really does is add more fuel to the fire. Something that would've been forgotten by most a week or two from now, has gained a new lifespan.
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Pwolf



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:14 pm Reply with quote
i think what people need to realize (and this is my own opinion) is that there is a difference between supporting something and idolizing it.

from the standpoint of anime, you support it by supporting the companies that produce it. the only real way to support them and allow them to continue to make anime is to buy their merchandise (dvds...).

Anime companies can't do anything if they can't fund it. try making your own anime and see if you want people to just download it and never pay for it. thats not very supportive and a sure way to stop companies from producing qaulity shows.

idolizing is just watching it and doing nothing to keep the companies making more.

Pwolf
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Zeiram



Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 317

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:23 pm Reply with quote
geh x_x stupid people (those that are stupid) just cause ya can does not mean you should!

They are not seeing it for free in japan, they have advertisers, they have cable, they have electrocoty bills and subsequent living bills

if ya want it to be 'free' go live there and watch it for free!

meh, fansubs are a promotional venture, always will be, ya full of it if ya can rationalize yourself into thievery.

I fansub, i read, i buy, i watch on tv, i do what i can in many ways. Thats what it is to be a fan
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Aaron White
Old Regular


Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1365
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:23 pm Reply with quote
Lazuline and Steroid; so entitled. You know why you think you're entitled to unlimited free anime? Because YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO WORK HARD AND APPLY CAREFULLY HONED TALENT IN ORDER TO CREATE SOMETHING SPECIAL. If you did you wouldn't toss off such spurious and economically ignorant justifications of piracy. I've met a few of the "Piracy is okay!" crowd, and without exception they've always been total milk babies, which is why I ironically somewhat agree with you; you should have a sugar tap giving you unlimited free entertainment; it keeps you where you belong, out of my way. Stay in mommy's basement and download your anime, sweethearts. Don't come outside in that scary painful sunlight and engage life. In the wise words of Brother Zappa, "You ain't really made for being out in the street; ain't much hope for a fool like you, 'cause if you play the game you will get beat."
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