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Case wrote:

Can we please keep the forum squabbles in the forums? It's not news, and it shouldn't be posted as news.

Are you referring to the editorial itself? An editorial, by definition, is not news, and it was not posted as such.

Js2756 wrote:

ACDragonMaster wrote:

Actually, no. You can "steal" products by, for example, making a copy of a rented VHS tape. And ever notice thus warnings against copying at the beginning of tapes? Yeah, it's a form of stealing, and it's illegal.

It might not be stealing the physical object, but it is stealing the money owed the person who created it.

Actually, no. In the legal definition of the word, "stealing", it is not stealing, it is copyright enfringement. Semantically different, but making a copy of copyrighted material is not legally stealing as the owner of the original material is not physically deprived of it. Also, depending on where you live in the world, and for what purpose the copy is being used for, it may or may not be legal.

Thank you, that was what I was aiming for and you said it so much better. But I still think dubs are better than subs, in fact they should just dub it into English from the beginning and avoid the Japanese language as much as possible.

GTC wrote:

Thank you, that was what I was aiming for and you said it so much better.

Indeed, but if you read what I wrote, you would see that it IS stealing, by definition AND law.

GTC wrote:

Js2756 wrote:

ACDragonMaster wrote:

Actually, no. You can "steal" products by, for example, making a copy of a rented VHS tape. And ever notice thus warnings against copying at the beginning of tapes? Yeah, it's a form of stealing, and it's illegal.

It might not be stealing the physical object, but it is stealing the money owed the person who created it.

Actually, no. In the legal definition of the word, "stealing", it is not stealing, it is copyright enfringement. Semantically different, but making a copy of copyrighted material is not legally stealing as the owner of the original material is not physically deprived of it. Also, depending on where you live in the world, and for what purpose the copy is being used for, it may or may not be legal.

Thank you, that was what I was aiming for and you said it so much better. But I still think dubs are better than subs, in fact they should just dub it into English from the beginning and avoid the Japanese language as much as possible.

Except too often the people dubbing the characters come off as emotionless stiffs.

The only dubs I prefer tend to be the big budget dubs like Spirited Away and Steamboy. Especially with Steamboy because you can't have an old English accent in Japanese, so the English dub will naturally sound better.

Case wrote:

Can we please keep the forum squabbles in the forums? It's not news, and it shouldn't be posted as news.

It wasn't posted as "news". It was an editorial. Can't people read anymore? Oh wait, they can't, so that's why there's this big issue with Zac.

Space Goats wrote:

GTC wrote:

Js2756 wrote:

ACDragonMaster wrote:

Actually, no. You can "steal" products by, for example, making a copy of a rented VHS tape. And ever notice thus warnings against copying at the beginning of tapes? Yeah, it's a form of stealing, and it's illegal.

It might not be stealing the physical object, but it is stealing the money owed the person who created it.

Actually, no. In the legal definition of the word, "stealing", it is not stealing, it is copyright enfringement. Semantically different, but making a copy of copyrighted material is not legally stealing as the owner of the original material is not physically deprived of it. Also, depending on where you live in the world, and for what purpose the copy is being used for, it may or may not be legal.

Thank you, that was what I was aiming for and you said it so much better. But I still think dubs are better than subs, in fact they should just dub it into English from the beginning and avoid the Japanese language as much as possible.

Except too often the people dubbing the characters come off as emotionless stiffs.

The only dubs I prefer tend to be the big budget dubs like Spirited Away and Steamboy. Especially with Steamboy because you can't have an old English accent in Japanese, so the English dub will naturally sound better.

Emotionless stiffs, you have to be kidding, most everything I have seen the acting is just as good if not better. Photon comes to mind as a good example. Photon Japanese VA (Junko Takeuchi) makes him sound like an average kid but the English VA (Scott Cargle) gave him a very soft spoken distracted voice that added many more layers to his character (and when he is "screaming while falling from space near the end, it is probably the funniest sound ever in my opinion) maybe ten fifteen years ago they were stiffs but now they are surpassing as VA's. (actually Voice acting in Japan is the lowest form of acting one can do, so I will admit they are very brave. Don't exactly know what that has to do with anything but I have seen the issue brought up a few times, with no one really saying anything about it.)

Plus real emotion in acting is in the nuance. Unless you're fluent (i.e live in Japan for a few years speaking nothing but Japanese) you really cant read emotion in the voice. Anime is a very visual medium, if you really pay attention almost all the time (with a few exceptions) when a character expresses an emotion it is very readable on their face, very obvious. Try this, watch a show in Japanese with only the sound playing and see how well you read the emotion, hell try that with English or any language you speak fluently. Communication is very visual thing, why do you think alot of misunderstandings occur over the phone.

Oh and by the way old english accents went out before the middle ages. They were speaking with cockney accents, english accents with very specific pronunciations and slang, most of the subcharacters spoke that in the Birmingham location (the best example in that movie are the three kids who try to beat up Ray when he is walking on the wall near the beginning), the Steam family spoke regular modern english accents with a slight exception of the grandfather, Lloyd, but that is only because the actor, Patrick Stewart, is actually from Birmingham, but his accent has neutralized a good amount because he has not lived there for a long time.

I don't really care if you disagree about the English or what but do try my little suggestion, and see what happens.

I'll try not to repeat previous things from this thread too much--I didn't feel insulted by the comments towards fansub downloaders, even though I do download fansubs, some legally, some illegally. But, I buy a fair share of R1 DVDs because I recognize that supporting the industry is important, and I don't believe that it should be "free"--if anyone asked me "why buy the DVDs when you can DL it for free?" I'd be offended. The US distributors aren't "evil bastards," though I do have my issues with them--honestly, sometimes it seems like they don't value sub fans all that much, acting as if the Japanese language track and subtitles were an afterthought/extra that a few random people might watch. This isn't true of all or even most R1 DVDs, but to cite something from the subtitle script of SaiKano, episode 1:

(spoiler tags just in case; nothing earth-shattering here)
spoiler[
Shuuji: Most guys would have said yes.
Chise: Why would they!?
Shuuji: When a cute girl like you asks a boy out...
I* mean, I* didn't want to go out with anyone until you asked me!
Chise: You said it again!
Shuuji: What?
Chise: "I.*"
[Shuuji goes all red at this point]
Shuuji: What's wrong with that? I've said that since I was a kid, right?
Chise: (laughing) Sorry, you're just so cute!
]

Ask yourself, do the lines and reactions really make sense based on the English subtitles? Why would Shuuji be all embarrassed about a super-common word like "I," after all? In fact, it doesn't make sense, unless you happen to understand Japanese, and not just the actual word for "I"--you have to know the shades of meaning behind it, since Shuuji usually uses "ore," an aggressive/strong masculine form of "I." At the points that I marked with an asterisk, he switches to "boku," which is used by younger boys (and increasingly by young girls) and sounds more cute/childish, which explains his embarrassment and Chise's laughter. [I should note that the dub admirably improves on this, by making Chise laugh at Shuuji using the word, "cute," which is understandably a "girly" word for him to say from our linguistic point of view.]

The point is, if we're paying (Viz, in this case) for professionally translated, U.S. localized versions of anime, isn't it their responsibility to make it understandable for people who don't know Japanese? To cite a convenient counterpoint, at one point in a later episode of Aishiteru ze Baby, Kippei does the same ore-->boku switch while complaining about something, and Kokoro tells him, "[you're using] Boku? Get your act together!" and the meaning is explained in an onscreen note in [name of group omitted]'s fansub version.

Luckily, it's not always like this--for some shows like Excel Saga and Super Gals, the R1s have plenty of reasearch and effort behind them in order to make the English and Japanese versions understandable and enjoyable.

GTC wrote:

Thank you, that was what I was aiming for and you said it so much better. But I still think dubs are better than subs, in fact they should just dub it into English from the beginning and avoid the Japanese language as much as possible.

Why would they dub it into English? The anime is made by Japanese companies and inteded to be aired on Japanese TV. Ergo, their audience is Japanese.

GTC wrote:

I ask the questions what are the points that one should make in the age old anime argument sub vs dub i have always been on the side of dub while i can see many points are quite true and valid my stomach turns when people say "because i want the pure emotion and translations than that hack and butchered versions made by comapnies to take all the money from your pockets" which i am sure you know that covers alot of anime fans that go so far as to hate subtitles made by companies and they only go for fansub thinking they are better than all. i always make the case that these people are usualy in college studying japanese and no subtitles are purer than dub since its the same idea.

I have to disagree with you. If anything, serious study of the Japanese language will show you that fansubs are not always better.

I have met people like you describe above, but they are usually in beginning level Japanese classes. And they usually fail those classes (I personally haven't met one that devotes any time to study.). Therefore, even if they have that attitude, they're usually not qualified to judge the accuracy.

I'm sorry pythos you completely missed the point of my SARCASTIC little remark, just a joke, which kind of goes to my last comment on how diffucult it is to read emotion without the help of body language. Of course you could be messing with me on a whole other level, so if thats the case, Touche.

I dont get where you are coming from on that other post. Yeah fansubs are usually worse because the tranlation is subjective (for example the "13 year olds" adding words of curse because its cool) they are going only on whats said. The official releases work closely with the original staff so that they can get very close to the original intent with both the sub and the subtitles.

I also saw someone say that the Japanese language track and subtitles seem to be just an after thought on DVD's. They don't have to do anything to it for the DVD. I have never seen a DVD personally that has only the english dub. What, do they make the picture quality worse for your Japanese dub, do the subtitles that run during the Japanese dub make fun of your mother, do the Japanese speaking characters flip you off randomly only when they speak Japanese. If you did it would seem the domestic people are putting more effort into the DVD's Japanese half.

I believe fansubs are okay if that is your only option, but they are very much inferior to the official thing.

GTC wrote:

I'm sorry pythos you completely missed the point of my SARCASTIC little remark, just a joke, which kind of goes to my last comment on how diffucult it is to read emotion without the help of body language. Of course you could be messing with me on a whole other level, so if thats the case, Touche.

I don't get where you are coming from on that other post. Yeah fansubs are usually worse because the tranlation is subjective (for example the "13 year olds" adding words of curse because its cool) they are going only on whats said. The official releases work closely with the original staff so that they can get very close to the original intent with both the sub and the subtitles.

I also saw someone say that the Japanese language track and subtitles seem to be just an after thought on DVD's. They don't have to do anything to it for the DVD. I have never seen a DVD personally that has only the english dub. What, do they make the picture quality worse for your Japanese dub, do the subtitles that run during the Japanese dub make fun of your mother, do the Japanese speaking characters flip you off randomly only when they speak Japanese. If you did it would seem the domestic people are putting more effort into the DVD's Japanese half.

I believe fansubs are okay if that is your only option, but they are very much inferior to the official thing.

I would have to disagree. Professional dubs and subs also have guidelines that they have to follow that can deteriorate the quality of the translation. For example, they may have to edit the material such that the product falls within the required rating for a specific agegroup (PG-13, or whatever the TV equivalent is for example). Look no further than Nelvana's liberal translation of Cardcaptor Sakura or Fox's treatment of Vision of Escaflowne. Dubs have an even more basic guideline that should be followed: The translated words should roughly match up with the mouth movements of the characters on the screen, which may result in some very extensive editing. Professional translations (whether sub or dub) are still fairly objective, and it is still the decision of the editor to decide how the text should be translated. Then there is also the unfortunate use of dubtitles instead of properly translated subs.

All in all, there are pluses to professional dubs, professional subs and fansubs. However, I wouldn't say that any one of them is always better than the other. There are times when fans have done better jobs than professional translators, while there are often times when the fansub is incredibly poor at best. There have also been some incredible dubs (Cowboy Bebop seems to always be mentioned in this vein), while there are some which are just incredibly painful to have to listen to.

GTC wrote:

I have never seen a DVD personally that has only the english dub.

Really, then I guess you've never seen the first release of Sailor Moon seasons 1 & 2, or Cardcaptors, the movie "Once Upon a Time" (AKA "Windaria"),or any of the various WB-type shows like Pokemon, Digimon, Yugi-Oh, or One Piece, all of which are dub-only. They do exist.

GTC wrote:

I also saw someone say that the Japanese language track and subtitles seem to be just an after thought on DVD's. They don't have to do anything to it for the DVD. I have never seen a DVD personally that has only the english dub. What, do they make the picture quality worse for your Japanese dub, do the subtitles that run during the Japanese dub make fun of your mother, do the Japanese speaking characters flip you off randomly only when they speak Japanese. // I think I explained what I did see wrong with R1 discs, didn't I?// If you did it would seem the domestic people are putting more effort into the DVD's Japanese half.

I believe fansubs are okay if that is your only option, but they are very much inferior to the official thing.

You are missing some points as well--believe it or not, I was NOT following the argument line of "All R1 DVD translations suck and fansubs are TEH WIN!!!!111" I was only saying that for some situations and aspects of Japanese, the fansubs make things more understandable for people who don't know Japanese, using extra on-screen notes and the like. I will agree that official releases are better on the whole (despite things like Bandai's Cin/Cyn/Cz confusion in the Scrapped Princess dub and subtitle scripts), but it remains true that some things will "slip through the cracks" because comapnies don't care to explain them.

I'll close with another example: In Angelic Layer, one of the small running jokes in the show is Misaki's aunt telling Misaki to call her "Shouko-san" (Miss Shouko) instead of "Shouko-obasan" (Aunt Shouko), because "obasan," in addition to meaning "aunt," is also a way to address a middle-aged woman, and Shouko doesn't want to be thought of that way. But, since "Aunt" doesn't have the same secondary meaning in English, the unknowing viewer will think, "She doesn't want her niece to call her 'Aunt.' Okay, whatever..." A simple topscreen note would have been enough (as ADV does with some puns in Full Metal Panic! and Rune Soldier), but apparently it wasn't important enough to them.

For one all those you mentioned, Zalis116, were shows aimed at children under 8 who probably dont care if they have the show in Japanese. (and by the way One Piece isn't out on DVD yet, and they have officially announced they will have dual language, uncensored DVD's). I also said personally DBZ has dual language, as does Yugioh, Digimon only has a movie out and the cardcaptors dvds only feature japanese dialouge except for the movies. Only Pokemon has only english DVD's.

and does that Angelic Layer example really matter in the whole context of the story. Does the slight loss of meaning of a Japanese synomym really detract from anything. Sure you can argue that it completely change the tone of the character, but that is just a very elitist point of view. Plus just because ADV and fansubs do the note does that mean every company is obligated to do it. I think you are just spoiled. Plus much of anime is very ethnocentric, so unless you are immersed in the culture you won't get a good amount of stuff anyway. Thats why dubs are so good because alot now are taking those ethnocentric references and jokes and changing them so we can understand them but they also try to stay as close as possible. This ethnocentrism is also why South Park never made it big there.

If you can look past these little things you can probably get more enjoyment out of it. Hell Ping Pong Club is one of my all time favorite series, granted I don't get half of the costume change jokes, but the dub does alot of self referential jokes that more than make up for it. Colorful is almost boring in Japanese because of the formality of the language, but the dub adds so much to the goofy tone of the show, they add lines where there is no dialouge, it is just so much more enjoyable. So sometimes the dub enhances the show. This last paragraph was really meant to proclaim my love of Ping Pong Club and Colorful than anything else.

GTC wrote:

... and the cardcaptors dvds only feature japanese dialouge except for the movies...

Um...you are sorely WRONG about that... "Cardcaptors" is Nelvana's dub...they started with Episode 8 of the series because they wanted Shaoran to appear in the first episode... they also skipped many important bits of the story... (I watched the series out of curiousity as to write my reason why CLAMP anime should never be changed for children...the series makes less sense...).

Gratiously, PioneerAnimation (as it was at that time) released a Sub-Onlyversion of "Cardcaptor Sakura" that included all episodes...

The movies, yes, has both versions with multiple covers to cover both the "dub" lable and a "sub" lable for it's corresponding version.

There are 9, I belive, dvds of "Cardcaptors" (not including the movies; 18 dvds of "Cardcaptor Sakura" (not inluding the movies).

There are also 3 specials that remain unreleased in the US called "Tomoyo's Action-Video Diary" (or something along those lines...it has been a while)...

I'm am a CLAMP-obsessor even to the point I own the Tokyo Babylon live-action movie...

...and I HATE when people refer to Cardcaptor Sakura as "Cardcaptors"; This makes me wonder what CLAMP thought about what Nelvana did to their characters for the dub--completely changing names and reversing emotions (that emotion thing refers to Movie 1 where the turn the "villianess"'s love into hate in the dub... That made me pitch a fit.)

--

Horrible dubs make me feel sorry for the creators... not having their work recognized for their true potential...

Js2756 wrote:

Then there is also the unfortunate use of dubtitles instead of properly translated subs.

As in "Neko no Ongaeshi" ("The Cat Returns"). There are "subtitles" for the Japanese track when they aren't even speaking~nya.[/quote]
Yeah, I hate that kinda stuff...especially since I know enough Japanese to not pay attention to some of the so-called subtitles (especially since they are wrong) but of course Disney wasn't going to spell out the word "Pervert" when Haru says it...

...but... God forbid all anime being translated correctly... even considering many kids have the ability to watch things like "King of the Hill" and "Family Guy" and "the Simpsons" on American television. Rolling Eyes

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