Forum - View topicJason Thompson's House of 1000 Manga - Card Captor Sakura
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Hellfish
Posts: 391 Location: Mexico |
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I was already a dedicated anime fan when the anime started to be broadcasted in Mexico so I was able to see it's popularity rise. Many people got their first taste of anime thanks to this series, and this series was able to atract a different kind of audience that Dragon ball, Ranma, Pokemon and even Sailor Moon couldn't get. Sure there are people who don't like it, as always, but I don't think it is considered one of Clamp finest for no reason. Is just that good.
Also it is probably one of the better animated clamp works, maybe side with X. I do find dissapointing the fact that neither XXXholic not the first series of tsubasa can't even compare. I don't I will be buying the omnibus, but maybe some day. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1363 |
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CLAMP's work is uneven:
tsubasa have got completely nonsensical plot/events, I could not tolerate the nonsensical decisions and reasoning of main heroes... X was made into one of best anime of all time (concept, visuals, music), a truly epic myth, a tragic legend that squeezes your soul to the very end in the anticipation of inevitable fate, with even hope being cursed to be drowned in tears... CCS is sort of perfection in totally different area... |
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marcos torres toledo
Posts: 269 |
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I only know it via the anime but I love the series guess how I found out about the anime version of all places a article in the Nation weird isn't anyway I will look up Dark Horse for thr manga.
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Shay Guy
Posts: 2115 |
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Well...it's not quite the same in my case. I mentioned Princess Tutu as an anime I love -- in fact, it's the standard I judge pretty much any other magical girl anime I come across by. With CCS, it's an especially useful comparison, because their first halves have obvious similarities, with the heroines being charged to gather a themed set of magical objects, the acquisition of each of which makes a slight but noticeable difference. And no matter how I try and look at CCS, it doesn't measure up. Tomoyo isn't nearly as entertaining as Pike and Lilie. The anime's music isn't as good (though admittedly, Tutu cheats). The sugary atmosphere doesn't feel as genuine. The bit characters aren't as interesting. The plot isn't unfolding as smoothly. And I've tried, but I can't find Sakura as likable as Duck. It's not just that CCS isn't my thing, which would make me an outlier in itself. When I look at it, I don't see a good manga that doesn't suit me. I see a mediocre manga. And that doesn't make sense to me.
Seeing as the first half is what I've been reading, this isn't encouraging.
Been reading the printed editions (thank you, ILL), and I'm not liking the art either. Part of this is almost certainly that I don't like most shojo manga linework in general (so it's much harder to judge its objective qualities -- it's probably telling that I like even CLAMP's non-shojo art in Tsubasa and xxxHolic better than CCS and Rayearth), but CCS also has blobby character designs, a ridiculous amount of flowers that do nothing for me but clutter the page, and enough fake lens flare to impress J.J. Abrams. Again, I look at other manga art I do like -- Urasawa, Tezuka, Azuma, Otomo, and Kaoru Mori, plus Toriyama, Oda, and even Akamatsu for all the flak his CG backgrounds get -- and I can't see how it measures up. (Listing Urasawa, Azuma, and Mori probably goes a long way to showing what styles I do like.)
Not much I've seen that's so special there, either. OK, I guess a new non-magical costume every fight is novel, and regarding the wand, as a Pratchett fan, I do enjoy seeing Watsonian and Doylist reasons match. The magic system? Compared to what?
More subjectivity, but beyond that, I'm still not seeing how it compares to Tutu in this area.
Now that I'll grant. There is a genuine problem-solving element there, though it still often seems incoherent.
OK, there's a lot to get into here, and again, I've only read three volumes, but I'll go with what I know. How am I supposed to take Sakura's crush on her wonderful Yukito-san (or Syaoran's, for that matter) seriously, compared to Duck's crush on Mytho (which literally sets off the whole plot)? I try to think of anything she says about him, any particular part of her babbling, and nothing comes to mind. Nothing that measures up to this bit of characterization:
Is what Sakura shows a realistic schoolgirl crush? Maybe. Endearing? How? Compared with the above? Or for a more generalized example of romantic writing, with this bit from a different story from a different country?
You can argue that Sakura's infatuation isn't supposed to be "real," but neither was Duck's, and that was still more interesting. This "fake love" has so far taken center stage, and even the "real" bits off to the side, long on telling and short on showing as I seem to recall them being, aren't impressive (with perhaps the exception of how Touya treats Mirror after falling). The main priority appears to be cuteness for its own sake. That's not promising. You may be able to give the student/teacher relationships a pass. I'm not. You mentioned the "thrill of forbidden love," which is way overglamorized as it is, but I'm not inclined to describe such relationships as "forbidden" so much as "a very bad idea." I have enough trouble accepting it in Maison Ikkoku, but Rika/Terada is a whole 'nother level of wrong, especially because I can't even fathom Terada as a character. He's a total blank. These aren't trivial matters. To me, they suggest that CLAMP (or maybe just Ohkawa) has the notion that slapping the "twuu wuv" label onto something somehow makes everything else irrelevant. (On that note, the everyone-is-bi thing just strains my suspension of disbelief that much more.) People don't work that way. It's bad storytelling. On the other hand, it's not the only fiction series with a large, primarily female reader base to which that concept is fundamental. There's another one, more successful than every CLAMP series combined. It's called the Twilight Saga.
Certainly, but it's more complicated than that. We wouldn't have phrases like "good taste" or "bad taste" if it weren't. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber
Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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I've never seen the anime version of CCS or read the manga. But I have seen Princess Tutu, and it is currently my favorite anime series. And one of my favorite works of fiction in any medium, period. So to me at least, your post comes off as perhaps a bit unfair, as there's no way CCS can hold up to what I for one consider to be the greatest magical girl series of all time. I know you had some other issues with it (such as your dislike for the artwork) that weren't direct comparisions to Tutu, but I'd be interested to know what, if any, magical girl anime/manga you like aside from Tutu. |
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UtenaAnthy
Posts: 694 |
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CCS is the ultimate magical girl manga and anime, Princess Tutu is an equally amazing anime that deconstructs the magical girl genre quite a bit. Surely that's the point? If you don't like the whole magical girl thing, then Tutu's more likely to appeal than CCS. CCS isn't just a typical magical girl shojo manga, in that it doesn't have the heteronormativity often found in other manga of it's type (due to the kid demographic's bigoted parents), and also in the stuff mentioned in the article, plus in my and a lot of other people's opinion it's not typical because it is exceptionally good, but it's still much more purely mahou shojo than Tutu is (in spite of Sakura not actually being a magical girl). Think of CCS as an amazing LGBT-inclusive Superman story and Tutu as a much nicer, non cynical, much less violent version of Watchmen (or a drama anime version of Shrek, whatever), and I think that about sums it up. While this column is about CCS, I'd like to take a second to note that one of the things I liked so much about Tutu is that it's a deconstruction of a narrative about heroism that is more about expanding our understanding of how we can make happiness and encouraging us to think about what individually will make us happy, rather than leaving us cursing our humanity in despair and doubting that happiness even exists and that we deserve it. Which means that, like CCS, there's much less to do with hate than love. And I do think that here it really is a matter of opinion, it's not like someone said something demonstrably false like "using condoms does not reduce the rate of HIV infection" or "the moon is made of cheese", I've had discussions with people who thought that the quality of a piece of media could be determined using objective standards and there is nothing more tedious than that (more painful, sure, but I can't even begin to describe how much I wanted out of that conversation). After someone's sneeringly dismissed everything you like and the very idea that you might legitimately have different favourites than they do or different things you think are best... anyway, I'm not saying you were doing that exactly, but if you're trying to say that CCS is objectively mediocre, then please stop, because it's seriously not going to get us anywhere. Tomoyo isn't as entertaining as Pike and Lilie - In your opinion, I find her thoroughly charming. And as a woman who is attracted to other women (I'm bi), it was nice to see such a positive portrayal of a lesbian. The anime's music isn't as good - I'll agree that CCS doesn't have the best music in any anime ever, with pretty much anything scored by Yoko Kanno, the work of Susumu Hirasawa, FLCL, Samurai Champloo, Samurai X: Trust and Betrayal and quite a few other shows having better music (particularly if you're looking for music that's worth listening to outside of the context of the show to a significant enough extent that a soundtrack CD is a must buy), but I still thought the score and theme songs of CCS suited it very well, and I think the sound mix was good quality, I find the show to be aurally pleasing. Plus, while I did enjoy the music in Tutu, I've heard some cheesy pop songs that use some of those pieces, and they've ruined them for me to some extent, plus I'm not a huge fan of classical, I can appreciate it, but when I bought Fantasia 2000 the piece I liked the most was George Gershwin's. Interestingly, I may enjoy classical more when it's from an opera, as I loved the Cowboy Bebop rendition of Ave Maria and the Looney Tunes cartoon The Rabbit of Seville. The sugary atmosphere doesn't feel as genuine - Actually, I think it feels more genuine, CCS is full of nice people, where as in Tutu one of Duck's best friends enjoys making her miserable, IMO, Tutu is something of a deconstruction of the pink princess aesthetic, with the dark, unsettling world of "classic" fairytales a part of the atmosphere (though certainly Tutu is a lot less puritanical and vengeful in it's aesops), where as in CCS, everyone is nice deep down and no-one ever really gets hurt, I wouldn't quite call CCS a sugar bowl, as it's not as if the characters' lives are a walk in the park without thorns on the roses, but CCS is a show where there's a certain safeness to everything (in the in-universe sense, not in the playing-it-safe from the perspective of the audience sense), CCS is extremely sweet and cute, and I find it to be much happier than Tutu. The bit characters aren't as interesting - I think they are, and I'm not going to bother to expand on that because you didn't, and it is just a matter of subjective opinion (my favourites are Yamazaki and Sakura's friend who he's dating). Plus, there's Kero who I think is awesome, in Princess Tutu, Duck is both the magical girl and the mascot, which I loved, but it means one less interesting character. The plot isn't unfolding as smoothly - It seems to be unfolding just fine to me, and as someone who's watched most of the anime, I think it's one of the best longer series I've seen, I was never bored and didn't feel like any episode was a waste of time. Sakura's not as likeable as Duck - I like both characters equally, and I don't think Sakura is just a moeblob, she's a lot more developed and less stock than that.
If you don't like shojo art, then you don't like shojo art. I love the art in CCS and think the clean lined style and character designs are some of the best I've come across. I think it's an extremely pretty, beautiful manga, and I love the anime design as well (and I didn't like the art in Tsubasa as much either, though I agree XXXholic is beautifully drawn). I like some, not all of the artists you listed. I may respond to your other points later, but I meant to read manga today and then got distracted by this, and I think I've been distracted by it for long enough. I echo the other poster who asked if there are any other magical girl manga and/or anime that you like apart from Tutu and if so which ones? |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Shay Guy - I think your problem, as sort of touched on by the others, is that Tutu is not a traditional sort of Magical Girl anime, and like mentioned in great detail by the previous poster - deconstructs the Magical Girl genre. To me Princess Tutu is Revolutionary Girl Utena for a younger audience. It takes everything you know about the genre and flips it on it's head so that it's pretty much indistingishable from the typical fare of the genre - one that gives a lot of food for thought. Tutu was a show I thought was developed for little kids, but also had this serious, underlying adult plot developed just for moms who may be watching it with kids because I know of just about no little 8 year old girls who would be able to understand about the majority of what was going on in Tutu.
And for that I love Princess Tutu. But before Princess Tutu there was Cardcaptor Sakura, and it was a show that broke out of the typical mold of magical girl anime and manga of the 70s-90s. You won't get anywhere in comparing Cardcaptor Sakura to a newer, more genre-shattering title like Tutu, and it sucks, but there probably will never be another Princess Tutu, just like there will never be another Revolutionary Girl Utena. But for its time Cardcaptor Sakura was the game changer, and to deny Cardcaptor Sakura this, and it's charms and what makes people fall in love with it is unfair. Oh sure, you didn't find Tomoyo as amusing as Tutu's sidekick girls, but can you really claim Pike and Lilie as fleshed out characters? They would only pop up in random episodes and tease Duck - which was amusing in itself, and I've had friendships like that before, but they were not really characters who supported Tutu, and were necessary for her development like Tomoyo was for Sakura. Princess Tutu had only four fleshed out characters that I could think of - Tutu, Rue, Mythos, Fakir. Then we had the Music Box player (I forget her name, sorry) and the Narrator/story teller. Cardcaptor Sakura had Sakura, Kero, Tomoyo, Yue, Yukito, Syaoran, and Toya. Then later on we got Eriol, Suppie, and Ruby Moon. That's not even touching on the supporting characters who went above and beyond as supporting characters (I love how the anime fleshed everyone out) with everyone from Sakura's father to teachers and classmates, to even the Clow Cards themselves. Everyone had a personality, everyone had a crush or an enemy, and everyone felt different from the other. Tutu is all about the art of story telling, and what makes up the human psyche. Cardcaptor Sakura focuses on love and friendship and how it makes a person stronger. Those are the dramatic differences, and though Cardcaptor Sakura goes deeply into those subjects, you won't be finding any of the darker Freudian concepts Tutu touched on. If you insist to compare the two though, compare the manga to the manga (Tutu's manga was a serious dissapointment to me), and the anime to the anime. The Cardcaptor Sakura anime took everything fantastic about the manga and multiplied it for animation, and yeah, the music isn't classical music that has survived in popularity for centuries, but the animation is top notch cel animation for the day, and everything about it is enjoyable, even with the filler episodes. It's 70 something episodes of feel good sweetness that puts your hope back into humanity again (which is the complete opposite of the other project CLAMP was working on the same time as Cardcaptor Sakura - X). Tutu is a darker story addressing the darker aspects of humanity. But Tutu is also not without it's downfalls, and the anime isn't without it's blunders that stop it from being total perfection (such as those little 10 minute drivels it ran the show into the ground after episode 13 or so). And since we're not a culture exposed to the typical magical girl genre, and I thought it'd be fun for other fans to have it in here, here's some excerpts from a CLAMP interview on their development of Cardcaptor Sakura, and what they found made it stand out:
Clamp no Kiseki vol 2 has another interesting little article on where Cardcaptor stands in the history of Magical Girl anime, and addresses everything from Sally the Witch of 1969, to Sailor Moon breaking everything down with the emergence of the concept of "female figting heroines." I would post it all here, but it's a rather long thing to type out, so maybe someone can find it online and post a link to it. One thing I think important to point out between Sakura and Tutu however is this: One girl was just a normal little girl before she regained her powers, and the other was a duck. One is much harder for a little girl to connect to as a person than the other, and as much as I loved Duck, I could never really think of myself in her shoes, or even begin to try and understand the whole complexity of what she was going through. Sakura on the other hand - and my starting to watch the show while I was first getting into middle school was something I could easily relate to - especially as everyone began to start pairing off into relationships. Tutu is about a fantasy world, and making sense of it. Sakura is about magic in the real world. |
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ptolemy18
Manga Reviewer/Creator/Taster
Posts: 357 Location: San Francisco |
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Well, everyone's praise for it is is definitely making me want to watch Princess Tutu. To be honest, I've only seen one random episode of Princess Tutu and I haven't read the manga, so I can't comment on its goodness or relative goodness. (Since the manga is based on the anime, and I hadn't seen it, I gave the manga to someone else to review for Manga: The Complete Guide, and I never got it back.) I will say, though, that although the Princess Tutu anime may be great, I wasn't impressed by the artwork for the Princess Tutu manga. It looks pretty generic, like the art in most manga spin-offs of preexisting anime. CLAMP's artwork is much more individualistic and expressive. |
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UtenaAnthy
Posts: 694 |
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Actually, while I've remembered, I'd just like to point out that CCS had really good animation, particularly considering it's length and the time at which it was produced, whereas Princess Tutu's animation is decent, but nothing really special (the art is very good, yes, but the actual animation is rather perfunctory.) Just to make things clear, I couldn't choose between the two, I'm just offering my opinion on some points of comparison.
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Ingraman
Posts: 1077 |
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I bought this set of Clow Cards from the SF Kinokuniya long, long ago (late '99?). The "book" is cardboard and, under the cover, has an empty space cut out of the 'pages' where the box of 52 cards fits. I fell in love with CCS while flipping through the pages of Nakayoshi. I had a subscription for the magazine for a few years through Kinokuniya, so that I could look at the manga version of Sailor Moon. I thought that the freebies (stationery sets, bags, postcards, playing cards, etc.) were cute. ^^;
I never bought any of the comic-pamphlet form of the manga, nor even the early graphic novel forms. I didn't buy the translated manga until the two 3-book boxes came out, and now I'm getting rid of those in favor of the Dark Horse omnibus volumes.
It's not B&N's fault. Dark Horse manga titles often see their dates slip (if they don't fall off the release calendar altogether for a while). If it's not a DMP/DH title (well, Berserk was generally released on time), then you might end up waiting much longer than planned. While they are a bit clunkier, I'm replacing my TP CLAMP titles with the new Dark Horse omnibus books. The DH books seem to be much better in terms of paper quality, and include a lot of color art that TP left out (or left in b&w). |
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