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Nonaka Machine Gun B



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:57 pm Reply with quote
At first glance this seemed so pointless, but thinking about it, Square has spent so much time with these side story games(that I personally have still yet to play any) and convoluting the KH universe so hard that a refresher course might be needed in time for KHIII.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:10 pm Reply with quote
that's actually what makes this release not pointless. Not only is there a relatively high chance that there are a lot of potential buyers of KH III who've only played KH I and KH II, but they are releasing a sequel game whose last console installment is on a console from almost 2 generations ago that is no longer manufactured or developed for anymore. They'd be fools to not at least have a port for the games on their current console.
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DeathScytheRuler



Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:23 pm Reply with quote
Nonaka Machine Gun B wrote:
At first glance this seemed so pointless, but thinking about it, Square has spent so much time with these side story games(that I personally have still yet to play any) and convoluting the KH universe so hard that a refresher course might be needed in time for KHIII.


The KH universe is not "convoluted" because of the side games. They exist to expand the universe and connect aspects from the main games to each other and to the side games in between.

I'm sick of people whining about how the story of a game series sucks when they only played the main games and didn't bother to play any of the side games that help explain things in the other games. (I'm not aiming this at you Nonaka, by the way)
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YamadaKun



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 304
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:31 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm sick of people whining about how the story of a game series sucks when they only played the main games and didn't bother to play any of the side games that help explain things in the other games. (I'm not aiming this at you Nonaka, by the way)


All games should stand on their own. If you need to play KH 1 to enjoy 2, that makes 2 a bad game. Sequels, side stories, whatever. I don't need to watch Batman TAS to enjoy The New Batman Adventures, do I? Same shit should apply to Kingdom Hearts/any game. BTW, story doesn't matter in video games and pretty much every game out there contains terrible stories.
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shamisen the great



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 583
Location: Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:59 am Reply with quote
YamadaKun wrote:
BTW, story doesn't matter in video games and pretty much every game out there contains terrible stories.
Well that's certainly an opinion. An inflammatory and completely false one, but whatever makes you happy.
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Jave



Joined: 08 Aug 2013
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:04 am Reply with quote
YamadaKun wrote:
All games should stand on their own. If you need to play KH 1 to enjoy 2, that makes 2 a bad game. Sequels, side stories, whatever. I don't need to watch Batman TAS to enjoy The New Batman Adventures, do I?


Well I suppose you just like stuff with zero plot then if you're using Batman as an example. Some of us actually do like story, though Rolling Eyes

DeathScytheRuler wrote:
I'm sick of people whining about how the story of a game series sucks when they only played the main games and didn't bother to play any of the side games that help explain things in the other games


People are so used to companies dumbing down things to make them easier for newcomers to get on board that complaints about people having to play/watch a series in order and they can't skip around as they please are starting to pop up.
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YamadaKun



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 304
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:15 am Reply with quote
@Jave I don't mind plot in animation, since that can make the animation better, but in games, they're not needed. BNA have episode plots, so while it's not overaching, the episodes themselves are plot driven. Example finding clues. Trying to beat the bad guy. Robin and Batgirl's character development. All sorts of stuff.
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Rahxephon91



Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 1730
Location: Park Forest IL.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:46 am Reply with quote
What great logic.

A sequel is bad because it needs you to know what happen before and I'm going to use something that basically is about having stand alone episodes as my comparison here.

"Man Lost sucks, because unlike in Law and Order I can't just jump into any random episode and know whats up".

And yeah who care's about stories in games? Why care about the world or characters you experience them. All games should just be score attack things.

Fantastic reasoning from our friend who thinks voice acting in games is also unimportant.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 919
Location: The Argama

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:14 am Reply with quote
While I disagree with YamadaKun on most of what he says here. There's some sliver of truth about the KH series.

If I need to play a bunch of side games to understand what the fudge is happening in KH2 and beyond, then you haven't made a good game (well a good story for your game, I liked the combat in kh2 for the most part). Side games should add to the world but not introduce plot elements that are only explained in that side game. It shouldn't feel like you're only getting half the story if you don't play the side games.

To put it in simpler terms, it would be like if Bioware took all of ME2 and made that a mobile game, or a book. Then renamed ME3 ME2. Most people who didn't read the book or play that mobile game would have no clue what the fudge is happening. Bioware actually did release books and a mobile game for ME, but it didn't effect much because they only expanded on some characters and told side stories.

Side games should be side stories, and you shouldn't need to play them to understand what's going on in your main series game.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:58 am Reply with quote
I just... have to disagree with both notions that games have to have stand-alone plots to be "good." I understand why some people are really angry, though. It really is inconvenient to have to get all the games on different systems to get the full picture... but that's why I'm happy about this HD collection. It helps those who were never able to play the side games. And, in actuality, one of the reasons Birth By Sleep is my favorite KH game is because its story is quite stand-alone, despite connecting heavily to the franchise. But yeah. Now they just need a 2.5 HD release.

Oh, and then there's social context. For some reason, it seems like Japan has less of an issue with continuous game stories involving side games. The fans have, too, been waiting for KHIII, but I've yet to see anyone complain that they couldn't at least catch the side games they wanted to play. But then, the PSP was a lot more popular there than in the West... and I'd be surprised if any gamer at all in Japan didn't have a DS...
Meanwhile, there are a LOT of people who forego handhelds and stick to console gaming over here in the West. So the concept of doing what KH has been doing is a lot less acceptable here. It's completely alienating of a huge fanbase.

But again, this HD collection was a great idea to "fix" that for the time being. I'm sure DDD won't appear on an HD collection anytime soon, so that could be a miss in the West, but if BBS appears in a 2.5 HD collection, I think we'll have covered many of the series' weaknesses.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:03 pm Reply with quote
To be fair I agree with the release of several of the side games as HD remakes on consoles. I just don't have the time to play through 5 games on now unsupported mobile platforms with inferior gameplay (this is entirely subjective, of course, but handheld games often don't match the type of gameplay and fidelity the home consoles can deliver).
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YamadaKun



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 304
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:41 pm Reply with quote
@Juno016 The PSP was not "far more popular in Japan" than it was in the west. That is a misconception. I swear it sold 20 million units in the US alone. Saying the PSP flopped Stateside is like saying the Genesis flopped Stateside. Hell, the PSP sold 20 million in America alone before it sold that amount in Japan. Also, the best selling game for the PSP, contrary to what TitanXL wants you to believe is a GTA game, from Britain, not Monster Hunter from Japan.

@Rahxephon91 Yeah, LAO is better as a STAND alone piece. I don't want to have to follow crimes. I want be able to see how the characters are in one episode are how they are in that contained space. Episodic live action is better than plot driven live action. In animation, it can go either. Some work better plot driven, some work better as self contained plots. In games, you're supposed focus on how the game works. The controls. The rules. The gameplay. If the level design is different between each stage. Is the game too easy? Is the game too hard? Are the graphics so bad, that it tricks me into thinking background is foreground and vice versa? A game's worth comes from whether it plays well. It can have a Oscar or Emmy Award winning story, but if the gameplay is shit, then it fucks the game and makes it implode. If the game has a shitty story, yet the gameplay, level design and controls are technically flawless, then why would any schmuck care about the story or characters? That's why I can't stand Hideo Kojima. Oh "this game has heavy themes like racism and war." But how about the gameplay? If I want to learn about racism, I can do that easy. Most normal humans play games for entertainment and gameplay, not story and themes. Rahxephon, if you're over the age of 25, tell me this. Did you honestly play your Super Mario World on SNES/Super Famicom for the story and characters?
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 1327

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:44 pm Reply with quote
animehermit wrote:
To be fair I agree with the release of several of the side games as HD remakes on consoles. I just don't have the time to play through 5 games on now unsupported mobile platforms with inferior gameplay (this is entirely subjective, of course, but handheld games often don't match the type of gameplay and fidelity the home consoles can deliver).


If we're talking about "capabilities" for the graphics and how much can be loaded on one screen, then handhelds do have a disadvantage. But while BBS had smaller individual areas (and long loading times if you didn't data install--I couldn't, thanks to limited space on my memory stick), the graphics and amount of effort they put into the game's looks didn't detract at all from what I felt from the previous main titles. It's definitely one of the best-looking games on the PSP, and that's in-game models and such, too.
But the gameplay... The gameplay was great. It's another reason I like it more than the main title games. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it did seem to have a good reputation in general, allowing tons of customization and exploration, as well as that addicting board game that... I thought was a bad idea until I got addicted to it. At least it helps your main game...
Otherwise, it felt very much like a main title.

Unfortunately, I can't really say the same for the GBA/DS games. I mean, the GBA game was great, but it was too different, thanks to the limitations, to feel like a main title. Even the PS2 remake didn't really help all that much. And 358/2 Days had a great story (to me), but it was like they tried to emulate the gameplay of the main games into the DS... and it just... didn't work that well... and then Re:Coded came along and made the gameplay feel smoother and more fun, but it really wasn't that... interesting. It's quite forgettable to many of the fans, since it doesn't have much of an impact on the story overall, outside of showing us what Mickey's letter was...

But both BBS and DDD are great handheld games that feel like they either emulate the main titles almost perfectly, or they add upon the kind of gameplay in the main titles. So... I do feel like KH is an exception to the whole "Console games are usually better than handheld games."--at the very least, the games don't feel like cheap cash cows. Otherwise, I would probably feel the same way as most people...

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure KHIII will "surpass" Nomura's style of gameplay and storytelling in BBS and DDD. It seems like him and his teams put full effort into those games, even seemingly surpassing the capabilities of the systems, so unless they really find a way to make KHIII unique and expansive with the PS4's capabilities and features, I'm skeptical over what will make it "worth the wait." It will be designed more like a main title, but I have a feeling that, no matter the quality of the final release of KHIII, people will probably end up feeling disappointed. It's not set in stone that way, but the hype will be BIG, and... well, if people don't like the handheld games (for those who HAVE played them), then I'm not sure they'll like this one...
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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Location: The Argama

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:48 pm Reply with quote
I actually haven't really kept up to date on the handheld releases, I'll definitely check those titles out, but my complaints are more aimed towards the releases between KH and KH2.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 1327

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:01 pm Reply with quote
YamadaKun wrote:
@Juno016 The PSP was not "far more popular in Japan" than it was in the west. That is a misconception. I swear it sold 20 million units in the US alone. Saying the PSP flopped Stateside is like saying the Genesis flopped Stateside. Hell, the PSP sold 20 million in America alone before it sold that amount in Japan. Also, the best selling game for the PSP, contrary to what TitanXL wants you to believe is a GTA game, from Britain, not Monster Hunter from Japan.


The overall sales aren't as relevant to this topic as the lifespan of the system in general. By the time Birth By Sleep came out in the West, the PSP was already starting to decline. PSP game sales were usually a lot better in Japan than in the West, and that especially stands true today, considering the only releases for the PSP here have been on the PSN (aside from some really desperate sports games and such). In reality, the PSP is easier to program on and, thanks to generally cheap programming tactics (over-use of menu screens, repetition, less need for complicated models, etc.), the PSP has been known for cheap spin-off games for big franchises. In Japan, this doesn't really affect sales, since the fans will buy it at the expensive price anyway. Here, though, people don't "fall for" that tactic as easily, and the PSP gained somewhat of a negative reputation over time, living off of the greater games. And again, many gamers in the West don't bother with handhelds because they find handhelds inferior anyway, so franchises that started on consoles like KH, which appeal heavily (though not exclusively) to those gamers, have less appeal to them on handhelds.

I love the PSP. Mine recently stopped functioning right and I need to buy a new one, but until that point, I played it a lot more than my PS3. To me, it's a great system. I just recognize its shortcomings. Which is why games like BBS and such are great for me.

animehermit wrote:
I actually haven't really kept up to date on the handheld releases, I'll definitely check those titles out, but my complaints are more aimed towards the releases between KH and KH2.


The only release between KH and KH2 was Chain of Memories, for the GBA. It was important to the story, but I heard from a lot of friends who never played it that they still understood what happened between the games. I can't remembre, but isn't there a summary of some kind in KHII?
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