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HJSoulma



Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:37 am Reply with quote
Okay, I don't post much here, but someone needs to defend the blu-ray releases that are being reamed here. I own both the Champloo and FLCL upscales, and Brian is right, they look FINE. I can't prove my credentials, obviously, but I can promise you I do have a stake in visual fidelity-- I like things that are aesthetically pleasing, don't like watching things on computers because they never look quite "right," don't buy useless upscales (I.E., lots of pre-HD/post-digital anime really doesn't look any different on blu-ray or DVD) and have, over the past few years, been replacing my DVD collection with any well-done blu-ray releases that come out (I guess the best example would be Disney movies-- I own a lot of Disney movies on DVD, but the difference in quality between the DVDs and blu-rays is HUGE, even for the non-remastered movies. Like, my old DVDs of Meet the Robinsons and the Enchanted are nigh unwatchable because the color is so bad and there's so much artifacting, but the blu-ray release are lovely), but I'm also not a crazy person who sets up two 60" HDTVs side by side to freeze-frame my way through two different versions of a show to check for any minute differences.

My boyfriend and I actually started watching the blu-ray release of Samurai Champloo halfway through the original DVD releases, (I was EXTREMELY nervous about ordered the set, too, since the entire internet was screaming about how Funimation had gutted the series and it would never be good again now that it had been released on blu-ray) and it was like night and day. The colors were more vibrant, there was less ghosting/artifacting and zero digitization (and seriously, has anyone actually watched the DVD release recently? any scene with any green or black is basically swimming with pixels, and considering how much of that show takes place at night, that's BAD.), and more importantly, the audio was WAY improved-- no more having to sit with remote in hand, turning the volume up and down between every action and talking scene. The dynamics are still there, obviously, but no longer in a way that makes you have to max the volume to hear anyone talk and then turn it all the way back down again so your neighbors don't think you're killing anyone when the characters are. Yes, they did remove some of the purposeful grain and noise, but (a) the series is so visually arresting to begin with that you don't really miss it and (b) the tradeoff for less muddiness and brighter colors is, in my opinion, worth it. If you already own the DVDs then I think it's a matter of preference and amount of disposable income for whether you want to upgrade or not, but if you're looking to buy the series for the first time I really don't think it's in your best interest to try and track down the old release unless you REALLY prefer the existence of artistic noise to, well, basically improvements in all other audio-visual areas. And blu-rays are more durable, so it'll also last longer.

Similarly, we watched the FLCL blu-ray release last week (both of us had watched borrowed DVDs a long while back, so I can't directly compare the two sets), and while I do feel that there was something "smooth" about the blu-rays, I would hardly say it was "bad" smooth or "distracting" smooth. It might look strange if you're watching it on a standard def TV (in which case, why are you buying HD discs anyway?) or a computer screen, since the refresh rate is different, but... seriously, if you aren't some kind of self-important, nitpicky "I can tell this is shooped because of the pixels" kind of person, I cannot imagine why you would want to track down the ancient, ridiculously expensive second-hand DVDs rather than buy the current release, which looks just fine, sounds just fine, and will last you many years into the future.


But then again, everyone on the internet is a critic, so I'm probably just going to be told that I have bad eyesight and no taste, so hey. I know this is a losing battle, but I think people should take anything (including this!) they read on the tubes with a grain of salt and make their OWN decisions about what looks good and what doesn't, and not just assume that because someone has an elitist "I know what looks good and what doesn't" attitude that they're right. So much of what one believes "looks good" is subjective. Don't judge a release you've never actually seen.
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SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 468
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:44 am Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
On Sailor Moon, I do think it is liable to come sooner rather than much later. It's not just Italy now; the property was recently licensed again for German-speaking areas of Europe as well. Doesn't seem like Toei is really holding onto it that tightly these days.


I think Toei has some different perceptions (not entirely unfounded) in broadcast standards for North America versus Europe. I seem to remember that all of the hullabaloo regarding Sailorstars was that the gender-bending subject matter of the Starlights wouldn't fly with American standards, but if I recall correctly, Sailorstars was dubbed into German and I would imagine that it was dubbed and broadcast in other major markets like France, Italy, Spain, etc.

Granted, my exposure to the German dub has only been a few episodes from about ... 10 years ago (oh jeez, that hurt Sad ) but compared to the dubbing changes in the American version I was used to, it seemed to make it through relatively unscathed.

GWOtaku wrote:
I do agree about not getting worked up over vague rumors though. I can't see its status in Italy having much to do with the market that all parties know exists in the U.S.


I've bolded the first part because it's the most important - and it doesn't just go for Sailormoon, it goes for everything. It seems like media companies have augmented part of their marketing strategy to essentially be rumor mills an create all sorts of Internet Drama about properties to at least get the word out. I wish the Internet would just cut it out and stop buying into this sort of stuff without facts or substantiation. The Italian Job of rumors about Sailormoon isn't the worst offender in this category but I hate it when Internet denizens try and use unsubstantiated rumors to breathe hope into their neckbearded fan desires.

enurtsol wrote:
I remember when I had videos of the different Sailor Moon 1st OP languages from all over the world. The German one was interesting.


I remember back in the mid nineties a few fansites that would have audio archives of Sailormoon openings from around the world and the Cantonese and German openers were my all time favorites. So much so that I dropped cold hard cash on a Sailormoon CD in Germany (like, almost 30 Marks!). There were about three or four decent songs out of like 25 ... but I had the full version of that candy-flavored Euro-synth opener and other German version inserts. I still love that song like you wouldn't believe.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:17 am Reply with quote
HJSoulma wrote:
Okay, I don't post much here, but someone needs to defend the blu-ray releases that are being reamed here. I own both the Champloo and FLCL upscales, and Brian is right, they look FINE. I can't prove my credentials, obviously, but I can promise you I do have a stake in visual fidelity-- I like things that are aesthetically pleasing, don't like watching things on computers because they never look quite "right," don't buy useless upscales (I.E., lots of pre-HD/post-digital anime really doesn't look any different on blu-ray or DVD) and have, over the past few years, been replacing my DVD collection with any well-done blu-ray releases that come out (I guess the best example would be Disney movies-- I own a lot of Disney movies on DVD, but the difference in quality between the DVDs and blu-rays is HUGE, even for the non-remastered movies. Like, my old DVDs of Meet the Robinsons and the Enchanted are nigh unwatchable because the color is so bad and there's so much artifacting, but the blu-ray release are lovely), but I'm also not a crazy person who sets up two 60" HDTVs side by side to freeze-frame my way through two different versions of a show to check for any minute differences.


If you really had a stake in visual fidelity, I would expect an explanation that goes a little beyond asserting something is "FINE" and wishy-washy backpedaling about how you don't own two 60" HDTVs...whatever that means. You do realize it wouldn't be particularly impressive if you did right? Right off the bat, this reads very defensive and reactionary.

Quote:
My boyfriend and I actually started watching the blu-ray release of Samurai Champloo halfway through the original DVD releases, (I was EXTREMELY nervous about ordered the set, too, since the entire internet was screaming about how Funimation had gutted the series and it would never be good again now that it had been released on blu-ray) and it was like night and day. The colors were more vibrant, there was less ghosting/artifacting and zero digitization (and seriously, has anyone actually watched the DVD release recently? any scene with any green or black is basically swimming with pixels, and considering how much of that show takes place at night, that's BAD.), and more importantly, the audio was WAY improved-- no more having to sit with remote in hand, turning the volume up and down between every action and talking scene. The dynamics are still there, obviously, but no longer in a way that makes you have to max the volume to hear anyone talk and then turn it all the way back down again so your neighbors don't think you're killing anyone when the characters are. Yes, they did remove some of the purposeful grain and noise, but (a) the series is so visually arresting to begin with that you don't really miss it and (b) the tradeoff for less muddiness and brighter colors is, in my opinion, worth it. If you already own the DVDs then I think it's a matter of preference and amount of disposable income for whether you want to upgrade or not, but if you're looking to buy the series for the first time I really don't think it's in your best interest to try and track down the old release unless you REALLY prefer the existence of artistic noise to, well, basically improvements in all other audio-visual areas. And blu-rays are more durable, so it'll also last longer.


Digitization is not a video error. I think you mean compression. I will put it to you this way: I look for language in product reviews that isn't vague or ill-informed. I also look for screen caps of various releases. If I can contrast and compare proper analysis of the video alongside stills of it, I can make an informed decision about what I'm buying.

There is no room for extravagent apologetics in the consumer world. If something is flawed, let's own up to it. It's been acknowledged in this thread that people on the whole probably don't care anyway, but for those of us that do it's important to be thorough and accurate. You're entitled to an opinion, but you are mistaken if you think that all of the people who disagree with you are doing nothing different. Posters like hissatsu describe their dissatisfaction in terms of video errors and they can back up their claims with evidence. We're not talking about genre preferences here: poor video processing is most definitely distinguishable from sophisticated varieties.

Quote:
Similarly, we watched the FLCL blu-ray release last week (both of us had watched borrowed DVDs a long while back, so I can't directly compare the two sets), and while I do feel that there was something "smooth" about the blu-rays, I would hardly say it was "bad" smooth or "distracting" smooth. It might look strange if you're watching it on a standard def TV (in which case, why are you buying HD discs anyway?) or a computer screen, since the refresh rate is different, but... seriously, if you aren't some kind of self-important, nitpicky "I can tell this is shooped because of the pixels" kind of person, I cannot imagine why you would want to track down the ancient, ridiculously expensive second-hand DVDs rather than buy the current release, which looks just fine, sounds just fine, and will last you many years into the future.


The refresh rate of the typical monitor is still 60Hz, the same as a typical HDTV. Honestly, you're only confusing people who are new to the terminology at this point. If you disagree that's one thing...but now you're just making stuff up.

Quote:
But then again, everyone on the internet is a critic, so I'm probably just going to be told that I have bad eyesight and no taste, so hey. I know this is a losing battle, but I think people should take anything (including this!) they read on the tubes with a grain of salt and make their OWN decisions about what looks good and what doesn't, and not just assume that because someone has an elitist "I know what looks good and what doesn't" attitude that they're right. So much of what one believes "looks good" is subjective. Don't judge a release you've never actually seen.


It's really juvenile that you'd bust out with all this nonsense and then label all the people who might disagree nefarious internet critics. You're not a part of the solution; you're a part of the problem. And it's not that you have poor eyesight or bad taste; you just don't know what you're talking about. Describing poor video quality entails a discussion of errors; it's not a verbal slugfest. I would be delighted if someone would join us in actually caring about this stuff, but most people simply cannot be bothered to learn or think critically about it. That doesn't make anyone stupid, but it is ignorant, especially when you presume to inform others.


Last edited by dewlwieldthedarpachief on Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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GrilledEelHamatsu



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 703
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:37 am Reply with quote
ZenAmako wrote:
Cowboy Bebop should be native HD when it arrives on Blu-ray, with the exception of the bits with CG. It was animated with physical cels and photographed on film. The same applies to Escaflowne.

Anime made from about 2001 to 2008 (with the exception of big budget films) will benefit the least from Blu-ray because those are mostly standard definition digital animation.

FLCL (1999) was one of the earliest digital productions; hence why it is an upscale.

Anime made in the '70s, '80s and '90s has the potential to look wonderful in HD as long as the original negative is still available and they do a new HD transfer. Just look at the Bubblegum Crisis BD box available in Japan.


Thats because Cowboy Bebop and Escflowne were both made in 1998. FLCL was made in 1999 but released in 2000. Anything made in 1999- will be digital animation only.
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hissatsu01



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 963
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:47 pm Reply with quote
Actually some shows continued to be animated on cels past 2000. Noir and Figure 17, both from 2001, come to mind.
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Deadwing



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 174
Location: North Augusta, SC
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Welcome to the wonderful world of HD.

Y'know, when DVD first came out back in 1997, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. Having grown on during the VHS era (I'm 31 now), I remember seeing the demo kiosks in Wal-Mart's electronic section and being amazed... no, absolutely blown away at how great the video quality was. The switch to HD never really gave me that same feeling. Playing current-gen video games in HD or watching HD television broadcasts hasn't impressed me. Not to say I don't think they can look nice on a good set (most I've seen have all sorts of nasty artifacts, but some are quite nice). It just lacks that "WOW!" factor that it's supposed to convey. Likewise, the first time I saw HD-DVD and Blu-ray, I was like "meh." Since then, I've seen some good HD setups (usu. on plasma screens; LCDs have always had worse color fidelity compared to plasma or CRT) where the picture from a BD looks really good, but it still doesn't feel like the same huge leap in quality that was between VHS and DVD. It doesn't give that "Awesome! I've got to get me that!" vibe DVD did.

Of course, HD brings with it compatibility issues as well. Many if not most things from the SD era look like ass when displayed on an HDTV. For example, do you still play your old 20th century game consoles? Tell me they don't look horrible on an HDTV. And of course we have the whole thing about upscaled DVDs and BDs of pre-HD digital animation. Whether it's old games or anime from '00s, it seems to me that your best bet is to stick with an SDTV.

This whole HD thing just feels like a forced, rushed, and largely unnecessary upgrade. And I do mean "forced" and "rushed." Major TV manufacturers were quick to abandon SD displays (and CRT tech in general; HD CRTs didn't last long on the market) well before there was enough HD channels on TV or a large enough HD home video market to warrant it (DVDs still for the bulk of the market share IIRC). The whole thing just baffles me. Maybe it's the Mr. Old-school-tech guy in me (I don't own an MP3 player or even a cell phone, I still buy CDs, my computer is nearly 7 years old, etc.). But in any case, I don't dig the whole HD thing as much as most people do. And don't get me started on the headache that is 3D.
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Echo_City



Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 1236
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:05 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
This whole HD thing just feels like a forced, rushed, and largely unnecessary upgrade.

Progress always does feel that way, to some. SDTV was limited to a 640x480 resolution, maximum. That resolution, VGA, was surpassed LONG ago in the 1990s. How you can state that anything at a low resolution looks on-par with something at a much higher resolution leads me to believe that you have yet to experience true "HD". More pixels, more detail. More detail gives a better picture. It's not that a 20th century looks like crap on an HD display so much as that the picture from a 20th century console looks like crap in general, and now you can truly see its flaws. PS3 vs PS2 on a 1080p display? Nolo contendere.

CRT was a very cool technology, IMO, it showcased man's innovation in the pre-IC age. Focusing a beam of electrons on via magnetism to create an image is novel, it's almost steampunk, and perhaps that is why I personally liken to it. LCDs always seemed rather pedestrian in comparison. More intricate, perhaps, but not as cool. However, CRTs are dangerous, extremely bulky, and have a nigh-insatiable thirst for electricity. CRTs also have issues with refresh rate & induced eystrain. Especially on older CRT devices, one can view the "bands" as the TV updates. They also have issues with processing digital input, which puts them behind in the digital age. That decades-old VGA plug needed to be retired.

HD tv sets eliminate most all of these issues. Progress is a good thing.

My fear is that we seem to be locking in to 1080p. How many years will it be before we go past that? Hopefully not another 20+. Even computer monitors seem to be jumping onto the 720/1080p hype, and instead of powering innovation, we're content to sit here at "better than we had". I see few monitors which go above 1920x1200, which saddens me. There's only so much a lower resolution can do.
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asimpson2006



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3151
Location: USA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:17 pm Reply with quote
Echo_City wrote:

My fear is that we seem to be locking in to 1080p. How many years will it be before we go past that? Hopefully not another 20+. Even computer monitors seem to be jumping onto the 720/1080p hype, and instead of powering innovation, we're content to sit here at "better than we had". I see few monitors which go above 1920x1200, which saddens me. There's only so much a lower resolution can do.


Well it seem that some companies are already doing proof of concepts with QFHD (Quad Full HD) which is four times the resolution of 1080P. Soit is possible but with the POC that are being tested this looks like it might just be HUGE TV sets that are going to have it first, then maybe someday it will progress to the smaller TV.

http://gizmodo.com/#!5547081/lg-shows-off-84+inch-3dtv-with-3840-x-2160-resolution

http://gizmodo.com/#!342997/concept-samsung-82+inch-lcd-worlds-largest-ultra-high+definition
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:09 pm Reply with quote
2K+ resolutions aren't particularly applicable to smaller screen sizes. Their real reason for existing is movie theatres and graphics applications. Of course, I'm sure that won't stop anyone from trying to sell it, but I'd be hard pressed to justify upgrading from a Blu-ray unless the materials themselves had extensive restoration or something.

Very very few titles are actually mastered at 1080p; IIRC Ghibli creates all their flicks at around 2K resolution. Of course, the old film materials are a good source of HD (35mm negatives can have about 6000 lines!), but most everything made for TV now is still not quite there. Even FMA: Brotherhood is at something like 540p, is that right?

There's really no need to panic about being "locked in" to 1080p. Resolution is like many other things a matter of diminishing returns. Unless you're running a 200" screen in your basement or sit a foot away from a 50" screen, 1080p is very usable. I'm willing to bet that actually procuring capable and calibrated equipment would be a much worthier endeavor.
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 1260
Location: Williamsburg, VA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:18 pm Reply with quote
In an attempt to break up this heady videophile discussion, it appears that Sailor Moon might get blocked from hitting the US because supposedly Brazil has been denied rights to redub Sailor Moon because supposedly Takeuchi is against "redubs". And since SM had like 3 different companies handling it at once, getting everyone on one page would be too hard.

However, this new rumor smells like a falsehood, since the manga rerelease is getting a tuneup, and it kind of dismisses Toei's wishes at all, I wholeheartedly agree SM would sell like hotcakes if it ever hits over here. Just this Rumor # 1876903 kind of puts a damper on things, espcially if it turns out to be true.
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dizzon



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 338
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:48 pm Reply with quote
I wonder if there's ever been an internet forum discussion dealing with Blu-ray quality that hasn't been unbearably obnoxious.
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Echo_City



Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 1236
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:35 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I wonder if there's ever been an internet forum discussion dealing with Blu-ray quality that hasn't been unbearably obnoxious.

I doubt it. I put blame on Sony, blu-ray is their product and they're a rather obnoxious company Wink (Referring to their asinine actions and now-infamous Geohot lawsuit)

Like any talk of tech, it comes down to comparative luddites trying to explain to comparative technophiles why they should hold themselves back because the luddites don't want to embrace change. No one likes being held back, and no one likes being told they're wrong. Hence the hostility.
Quote:
Unless you're running a 200" screen in your basement or sit a foot away from a 50" screen, 1080p is very usable.

This is the same argument that the SD fanboys use, that anyone who believes that there is a level of "good enough" (ie "usable"). On a 1080p monitor, pixels can still be distinguished with the naked eye; we can do better. 1920*1080 is only ~2 MP after all. I'm sure 1024*768 is "very usable" as well, but I don't want to go back to it.
Quote:
it appears that Sailor Moon might get blocked from hitting the US because supposedly Brazil has been denied rights to redub Sailor Moon because supposedly Takeuchi is against "redubs". And since SM had like 3 different companies handling it at once, getting everyone on one page would be too hard.

Sigh, chock this up to the Japanese and their infamous inability to say "no" outright, and when they do say "no", not mean it. Isn't one supposed to refuse a gift 3 times before accepting, per their custom? According to Funimation/Top Cow, GONZO is the only anime related company to firmly say "no" to something the first time, and mean it. Too bad they went under, but I digress Very Happy
This really does feel like the J-company just doesn't want to release the show, for whatever reasons, and won't own up to it. The reason can't be "artistic integrity" as we all know the disparity between the original J-version and the English dub. You'd think they'd want a "redub", so that the original spirit of the work would be known, but whatever. It's their prerogative, and their mistake IMO.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:53 pm Reply with quote
kawaiibunny3 wrote:

I remember buying the uncut Shaman King ones with my allowance at age 15 at best buy and they were my treasures.
then once i figured out they weren't making any more and my Shaman King love had faded, I donated them to a library.
I still find those volumes at used DVD stores and at a FYE where they charge full MSRP for things and I just kindof of chuckle at them. and amazon has them for like...a dollar each.

amazon has the Yugioh ones too (those are all for the expensive price of 4 dollars each! Rolling Eyes ) but those I think I only saw in the store once when they just came out, so...

so yeah, they definitely existed.


It's not an issue of existence, it's an issue of whether or not FUNi/4Kids did the legwork to shunt those DVD's into a proper limelight. Understand that at that time, Al Kahn wasn't exactly well liked and if those DVD's did succeed, then Kahn would have "egg in his face" proving that his line of justification was wrong.

I don't really want to throw out the theory that Al Kahn/4Kids somehow sabotaged the uncut DVD's, but given the circumstances, I hate to be wrong.
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Echo_City



Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 1236
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:02 am Reply with quote
Quote:

I don't really want to throw out the theory that Al Kahn/4Kids somehow sabotaged the uncut DVD's, but given the circumstances, I hate to be wrong.

Conspiracy theories are fun and all, but as he said in that ancient interview, he's in it for the money, and that comes from catering the show to the masses. People here mentioned that they bought the dvds of Yu-gi-oh uncut when they were 15 or so. I considered the target age range of the show to be considerably lower, based upon my experiences with fans of the franchise. I doubt that a bunch of 9 year olds, or more aptly, their parents are going to run out and buy an "uncut" version of a show for their young'ins. Not just due to the parental paranoia that plagues America, but also because then the kids would be seeing a show different than what they came to love.

For example, I remember seeing the original SM when I was younger, after seeing the English dub, and while the story was better (the voicing wasn't, imo) it just wasn't the same with zoicite as a gay dude....I never did like it as much as the original. Just my 2 cents.
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dizzon



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 338
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:13 am Reply with quote
Echo_City wrote:

Like any talk of tech, it comes down to comparative luddites trying to explain to comparative technophiles why they should hold themselves back because the luddites don't want to embrace change. No one likes being held back, and no one likes being told they're wrong. Hence the hostility.


I was thinking more along the lines of fellow Blu-ray technophiles engaging in tech jargon pissing contests on how to properly appreciate the format. Sure, you will have your neo-luddite vs. techie squabbles on the matter but the former is much more obnoxious.
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