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reanimator





PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:08 am Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:
I know its not easy work and I want the companies to make money. But on the flip side I am tired of them releasing these bastardization, 10-13 episodes of a show, and then telling everyone too bad, it didn't sell so you are stuck with this incomplete product. Additionally, its been what a few decades now that animation has been produced, its about time you figure out ways to cheapen the cost of making it, instead of figuring out ways to gouge customers. Im sorry I understand about markets and economics etc. ; but I can''t think of anywhere that comes close to even a fraction of the prices for dvd and blu ray that Japan puts on its anime. Look I realize that is how its been there, but with average costs of 30 plus dollars an episode, you just aren't doing something right. Even Europe where I am from, they don't close to gouging you on prices like Japan, and in Europe they gouge on prices. So maybe its time they start improving their product costs, instead of always passing the costs off to consumers.


Even though you talk about cost cutting, do you think fans who like hand drawn animation will accept it? Animation-making is labor intensive. Do you want to compromise quality for cheaper price. When you want niche show with quality, then you have to pay the price, right? Even if they do everything high tech, production cost will soar again because artists are never satisfied to existing visual quality.

Do you even look at end credit of each episode and how many are involved in it? When I count names on end credit of hot anime titles, number of production staffers range from 100 to 200 people per episode. Or do you prefer half the staff with okay-quality animation and visuals for Anime? Many American TV animations are like that and they're not that pretty even with oversea staffs.

I don't know much about European side, but it depends on how much people are involved it. How many people are involved in typical European animation production? Are European films made for niche or mainstream? Japanese fans want their animations to be niche and also high quality if possible. That's why Japanese fans pay the high price.
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CrownKlown



Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 1762
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:57 am Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
CrownKlown wrote:
I know its not easy work and I want the companies to make money. But on the flip side I am tired of them releasing these bastardization, 10-13 episodes of a show, and then telling everyone too bad, it didn't sell so you are stuck with this incomplete product. Additionally, its been what a few decades now that animation has been produced, its about time you figure out ways to cheapen the cost of making it, instead of figuring out ways to gouge customers. Im sorry I understand about markets and economics etc. ; but I can''t think of anywhere that comes close to even a fraction of the prices for dvd and blu ray that Japan puts on its anime. Look I realize that is how its been there, but with average costs of 30 plus dollars an episode, you just aren't doing something right. Even Europe where I am from, they don't close to gouging you on prices like Japan, and in Europe they gouge on prices. So maybe its time they start improving their product costs, instead of always passing the costs off to consumers.


Even though you talk about cost cutting, do you think fans who like hand drawn animation will accept it? Animation-making is labor intensive. Do you want to compromise quality for cheaper price. When you want niche show with quality, then you have to pay the price, right? Even if they do everything high tech, production cost will soar again because artists are never satisfied to existing visual quality.

Do you even look at end credit of each episode and how many are involved in it? When I count names on end credit of hot anime titles, number of production staffers range from 100 to 200 people per episode. Or do you prefer half the staff with okay-quality animation and visuals for Anime? Many American TV animations are like that and they're not that pretty even with oversea staffs.

I don't know much about European side, but it depends on how much people are involved it. How many people are involved in typical European animation production? Are European films made for niche or mainstream? Japanese fans want their animations to be niche and also high quality if possible. That's why Japanese fans pay the high price.


Outside of Disney and maybe Ghibli anime stopped being hand drawn a long time ago.

Also with regards to a cheaper product, they have already skimped on that. All animation is basically outsourced to Korea and cheaper areas. Look at the credit sometime. Hell just look at some of the shows, they look awful, even things like Naruto.

You act like lower costs would cheapened the product, unfortunately they have cheapened the product without lowering the price.

And its not just Europe name me one place in the world where you will come anywhere close to paying 30 dollars for 30 minutes. You will not find it. Its pretty much a Japanese exclusive thing. Even areas where where luxury goods are more expensive, don't charge anywhere near the going rate that Japan does.

The fact is Japan is lazy on this one. I love Japan. But they have this model, milk a few thousand otaku and move on. When they can't milk them, what do they do, change the model. No! They simply move on to another show playing a constant game Russian Roulette, and never working to address the underlying flawed system. Anime remains niche not just because of Anime, there are marketing reason, and other factor as well. Anime is a medium not a genre, yet Japan continues to treat as a genre. Its not action, horror, love, comedy, anime. Its photography, film, anime, painting etc.

Look I realize somethings will never change. Companies are no different from people. Most of them are lazy and if they can get by with less effort they will. Just look at a company like Nintendo. They hit wall technologically a long time ago. But they have mario so who cares. Same thing with the anime companies, they can always find just enough otaku to bilk and so status quo is God.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:36 am Reply with quote
@CrownKlown

ALL non-CG character anime is still hand drawn. Computers are used a lot in the production (special effects, some background, and objects, compositing, final outlines, painting) but that does not preclude the need for human labor in frame by frame work. Software for onion skinning and tweening does help make the process more efficient but it still requires a lot of man hours. I can assure you it's not a push-button operation.

All animation is NOT being outsourced to Korea. Because as mentioned, frame-by-frame work takes a ton of man hours, a portion, sometimes most, of the in-betweens is outsourced to Korea AND many other Japanese studios. I've read that they've had problems with coordination outsourcing to other countries where it actually results in more expense, especially when they have to perform many corrections, so some studios that don't have an established workflow with Korean studios, try to outsource to other domestic JP studios instead where an ad-hoc production workflow is more viable.

You bring up Naruto. That's actually a good example. The animation for regular, mundane scenes and for filler fights do range from utter crap to mediocre. However, the big, canonical battle scenes are superb. The kind of quality used for their movies used sparingly for TV. Why do suppose there is such a constant, wide variation within the same show? You can see here the effects of money and budgeting. In contrast other shows do have more consistently better quality. Shows like Guilty Crown or SHAFT titles after some corrections for home video.

That said, there are ways of improving animation and production efficiency and we already see its effects. If you actually looked at old shows, current shows are much better visually because of the enhanced tech. It would take too long to get into it here, but the animation efficiency could still be improved and it is improving, albeit at a slow rate. I also think CG can be viable replacement in the future, and can prove to be more economical

There is also the business side where one can rely on enough volume, which works better for some shows than others. I think this can still be improved for most however. Part of this is also due to cultural or perceived cultural barriers and being willing to take risks to improve volume (think Dragons Crown or Senran Kagura in games)
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DmonHiro





PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:31 am Reply with quote
CrownKlown wrote:
So maybe its time they start improving their product costs, instead of always passing the costs off to consumers.

Why would they, when the Japanese are willing to pay that much?
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ElectricDork



Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:07 am Reply with quote
A very interesting insight into the subtitling process. I've noticed the issue where Blu-ray subtitles blink when they refresh (most notably and disappointingly on Bakemonogatari) which Justin briefly mentioned, but it's such a relatively rare occurrence that I'd been left miffed as to why it's happening. It's present on Kaze's European release of Samurai Girls but not Sentai's, despite Kaze using Sentai's subtitle track!
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1817
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:27 am Reply with quote
ElectricDork wrote:
A very interesting insight into the subtitling process. I've noticed the issue where Blu-ray subtitles blink when they refresh (most notably and disappointingly on Bakemonogatari) which Justin briefly mentioned, but it's such a relatively rare occurrence that I'd been left miffed as to why it's happening. It's present on Kaze's European release of Samurai Girls but not Sentai's, despite Kaze using Sentai's subtitle track!


What's the frame rate on the discs' encoding?

I've mostly been watching anime Blu-rays dubbed, so I haven't noticed any subtitle problems yet.
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Sparvid



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:57 am Reply with quote
Quote:
If you're that intent on offering both a subtitled and dubbed version of an anime, it'd be far easier to just have two copies of the video lying around, and most companies don't want to deal with that.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not?

I'm guessing that a large majority of the viewers want to watch either subbed or dubbed, and not both versions of every episode, so having two videos wouldn't automatically double the bandwidth.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:33 am Reply with quote
Sparvid wrote:
Quote:
If you're that intent on offering both a subtitled and dubbed version of an anime, it'd be far easier to just have two copies of the video lying around, and most companies don't want to deal with that.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not?

I'm guessing that a large majority of the viewers want to watch either subbed or dubbed, and not both versions of every episode, so having two videos wouldn't automatically double the bandwidth.

You would be doubling the storage costs for your primary servers and CDN, plus it would consume twice the bandwidth syncing to those other servers
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2386
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:17 am Reply with quote
Melanchthon wrote:
Here's how I always saw reverse importation. (Overwrought metaphor time.) In a couple of weeks, America's favorite military wargame surrogate is starting up. Say there is a fan of the San Diego Chargers. In order to experience his hobby, he can a) stay at home a watch the game in HD quality on a big screen TV in all of modern comforts with cheap beer for free, or he b) spend several hundred dollars on tickets, parking, concessions, and cheap beer at exorbitant prices to see the game in the stadium. So why would anyone choose B? Because there is significant psychic value added by going to the game opposed to staying at home. Especially valuable is the experience of going as it related to the fandom, i.e. bragging rights. So why do people then choose choice A then? Because they can't always afford B. Anime fandom has a lot of similarity to sports fandom, and this is a obvious parallel. The average anime fan can watch shows for essentially zero cost online. Why buy the physical media then? For bragging rights and psychic value. Imported stuff from America is far less valuable in this case. Then why do people still import it? Because they can't afford the real thing.

It's that reason why this hand wringing over reverse importation is silly. Blocking it will have minimal effect on sales, since the consumers are purchasing it because they can't afford the real stuff. However, I can under stand why the Japanese suits are concerned, since their entire business model is based of an artificial manipulation of supply and demand.


Oh, and dealing with those damn subtitle bitmaps is a real pain. Thank God for OCR.


Two issues with your analogy and conclusion:

1) Unlike your sports analogy, where both experiences are completely different, the anime BD in America typically has the same stuff as the Japanese BD has, only with an extra dub and optional subtitles. Maybe even some other extras, or maybe those extras were taken out. Either way, it's generally the same product, just a lot cheaper. Indeed, fans who want the product as Japanese as possible, or who don't want to risk the American BD only having the Japanese dub with English subtitles (no non-subtitle option available), or who want Japan-only extras won't turn to the cheaper product, but...

2) ...that won't stop people who, regardless of whether they can or can't afford the Japanese release, will go for the cheaper alternative anyway. Those kinds of people aren't included in your analogy, but they exist and are the ones the companies are worried about. The ones who can't afford them won't buy them (probably) and the ones who want the main product anyway won't bother with the cheaper one, but those who CAN afford the main product, but choose not to buy it in favor of the cheaper alternative will be losses.

Whether or not this group of fans actually exists or truly has a significant impact on sales is debatable, but the possibility that it does is high enough that most companies don't want to take their chances.

Personally, I'm fine with this... as long as I can still buy Japanese BDs without worrying about this new "blocking" mechanism, that is.
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:14 am Reply with quote
A couple blog posts by Jonathan Clements on reverse importation:

"Ill Winds" (7 September 2011)

"Bait & Switch" (2 November 2012)
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EnigmaticSky



Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 750
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:55 pm Reply with quote
I do hope that they can mess with blurays more to make the subtitles easier to encode, and simply work better overall. I had no idea how much of a pain in the ass they made it for the encoders. It is one thing for fansubs to look like they do since they play on pc's, but to try to make stuff like that show up on a bluray, and have it show up at all... Damn. How hard would it be for there to be a little bluray upgrade to help them work better? I have a PS3 to watch my anime blurays on, so I think they could make it so that it uses more processing power, but others... I'm not a professional bluray encoder, so I wouldn't know, but I hope that they can make that work better.

Also I really hope Sentai, and other companies, would stop using yellow subtitles. Every time they have two lines on at once they use white for a second, and every time it goes off my friends and I yell "NOOOO! You were doing so well for 3 seconds, Sentai..."
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doc-watson42
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:38 am Reply with quote
And a new post from Mr. Clements:

"Grey Exporting" (19 August 2013)
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