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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:00 am Reply with quote
dark_hand wrote:
kincato, just in half a day you already started three threads that talk about the flaws in most animes in general. well, here's a fact that you have left forgotten. the makers of anime are humans just like the rest of us and true they might be blessed with talents but don't expect their works to be divine and godly.
every anime will have a few things that are just bad where everyone would wonder what were those japanese thinking. just bear with it.


Darkhand I understand that the creators are human. And I don't consider them divine or godly.

But if we don't learn from are mistakes how are we supposed to progress. And create even greater things.

Some of the greatest animes would not exist if the creators didn't learn from previous mistakes.

In fact humanity would not progress at all if we didn't learn from our mistakes.

If no one strived for perfection or even innovation for that matter would anime even exist?
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kenpachi dude



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 42
Location: South Africa: Cape Town

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:51 am Reply with quote
Kin7cato wrote:
This is just my opinion but I think its very stupid. If someone is really trying to kill or hurt you they are not going to sit and speak to you. They are going to use all of their power to murder you. As quickly and efficiently as possible.


Basically if they fight. They want to enjoy it. Make it long painfull batle for their enemy.
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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:12 pm Reply with quote
[/quote]

Basically if they fight. They want to enjoy it. Make it long painfull batle for their enemy.[/quote]

This is a pretty vague statement. The characters probably want to enjoy the fight. That really depends upon the characters.

If they were trying to make it a long painful battle for their enemy why the hell is the dialougue 10x longer than the actual fight scene?

Are they trying to talk their opponent to death. Yeah that must be it. Talking is far more powerful than attacking someone.

If you keep whining about your life story. For about forty minutes in the middle of a fight your opponent will die of boredom. Wow I never thought of this.

That is Brilliant. Its the most effective attack ever created!
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Azumangaman



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:19 pm Reply with quote
How about the Samurai vs. The Bandits in Episode 10 of Samurai 7? Granted it's rather short, and I'm not sure if it's episode 9 or 10.

Last edited by Azumangaman on Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:22 pm Reply with quote
I never seen Samuari 7, so I can not say anything about.
Otherwise it would be a lie.
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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:56 pm Reply with quote
bahamut623 wrote:
Kin7cato wrote:
Bahamut the problem is that in Naruto they display the secrets at the wrong time during the fight. Making the fight more tedious and less entertaining. With 3 episodes showing a character siting around talking or dying. Naruto's timing and organization for dialogue is way over the top. And inappropriate. They really try to strecth it out.


Yeah, I know what you mean, but that's just how alot of manga fights tend to work :\. I'm sure its present in non manga based anime too, but not too such an extreme extent, for example: Samurai Champloo, the fights usually are fast paced without being interrupted by talking, most of the time, anyway.


Bahamut I have seen about 23 episodes of Samurai Champloo and I don't understand what you mean. The fights are fast paced without being interrupted by talking, most of the time.

Why do they do that? Because unlike the other titles I mentioned Samurai Champloo is a lot more realistic.
People kill each other over trivial things like pride. Just to prove they are superior.

Can you give me a better example[ more specific reason] of why Samurai Champloo's fight scenes are bad or too extreme?
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jousha



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 205
Location: the floating world

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:14 pm Reply with quote
I agree about the drop-in-pacing caused by dialogues in the middle of a fight for a lot of the anime out there.

I think Cloe said it best, and I totally agree: visual language is so much more important than audio language in anime. Maybe not-so-much in manga or plays, but in anime or any video form of media.

What they need to work on is developing the characters before the action scenes (their beliefs, ideals, etc.). It fits the pacing and is more realistic. That's what turned me off from Rurouni Kenshin (though I loved the OVA): the enemy sits there while Kenshin explains what he figured out about his fighting style and how he can defeat him.

Also, that's probably why I enjoy watching the action-oriented type of anime that includes the dialogue within a fight scene in subtitles--it's not as bothersome when I'm reading it. But some anime have major problems in destroying the pace even in subtitles *cough*Naruto*cough*.

But then, I still enjoy a lot of the anime no matter the pacing, though I have dropped a few because of it (DBZ, Inuyasha). And just because an anime character doesn't explain why they do what they do to us viewers, doesn't mean they are 2-d; it's just we don't know what they are thinking and it is unusual to know in the end. That's why a lot of my favorite characters are the ones that hold things in behind a crooked smile.
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Greennunu



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:28 pm Reply with quote
Kin7cato wrote:
During a majority of Anime fight scenes I noticed a huge trend.
In the middle of a fight the main character and the opponent briefly battle for a short while.

Then all of a sudden the two characters come to a halt and start talking for literally two to ten minutes. Instead of a fight scene it becomes a dialouge battle.

This is just my opinion but I think its very stupid. If someone is really trying to kill or hurt you they are not going to sit and speak to you. They are going to use all of their power to murder you. As quickly and efficiently as possible.

Another trend I dislike in anime is during the middle of a fight it switches to another character or characters who are giving their opinions on the outcome of the fight. And their opinions on the fight takes about three or more minutes to explain who's going to win and why.

I really think this is dumb. I feel as though I have been cheated from a potentially good fight with sometimes a pointless dialouge. Its as if the artists said were tired can we rest a little? And the director says sure just make the character's mouths move so we don't have to animate the fight.
And we'll save money too.

This happens in a lot of animes. Even good ones. I'll name a few.

Rurouni Kenshin[TV] , DragonBall Z, Yu Yu Hakashu, Inuyasha,
Naruto, Street Fighter 2 V, 3x3 eyes, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing
Trigun, Fatal Fury,etc there is a lot more.

What do you think about this?


I didn't get to read the entire thing, but I don't think animated fight scenes are intresting at all, so if they stop for dialouge(unless its just flash backs), I generally prefere it that way, and if they just have a black screne that says "In the end Kenshin used his soecial tech and won the fight" I'd be happy to because thats really how the fight will end up(black out screen white light cuts, opponent goes flying(althoguh he should have been cut no matter how dull that word is if it can knock them that far it would bave broken the skin and bones) and Kenshin sheats his sword.).

DBZ is 34905825234 punches from each person all missing or being blocked and then they show one or 3 punches landing on each person, and then they cut to the other characters asking wether or not they can see the fight if a new power up was just made, then for the finished its some kind of energy blast which everyone looks at in awe because they can "feel" the power of it. It happens every 8-10 eps, and until those eps are comes along they sit there and train/wait for Goku.

I am sure 97% of all fight scenes are like this, some one use their special tech way to often, or the animation is just repetitive, so really there is no intresting fight scenes after the first time they use a specific special move.

Only anime I really watch for fight scenes in are gundam, but I just have a love for mech fights, and I love playing Armored Core.
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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:06 pm Reply with quote
Greennunu wrote:
Kin7cato wrote:
During a majority of Anime fight scenes I noticed a huge trend.
In the middle of a fight the main character and the opponent briefly battle for a short while.

Then all of a sudden the two characters come to a halt and start talking for literally two to ten minutes. Instead of a fight scene it becomes a dialouge battle.

This is just my opinion but I think its very stupid. If someone is really trying to kill or hurt you they are not going to sit and speak to you. They are going to use all of their power to murder you. As quickly and efficiently as possible.

Another trend I dislike in anime is during the middle of a fight it switches to another character or characters who are giving their opinions on the outcome of the fight. And their opinions on the fight takes about three or more minutes to explain who's going to win and why.

I really think this is dumb. I feel as though I have been cheated from a potentially good fight with sometimes a pointless dialouge. Its as if the artists said were tired can we rest a little? And the director says sure just make the character's mouths move so we don't have to animate the fight.
And we'll save money too.

This happens in a lot of animes. Even good ones. I'll name a few.

Rurouni Kenshin[TV] , DragonBall Z, Yu Yu Hakashu, Inuyasha,
Naruto, Street Fighter 2 V, 3x3 eyes, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing
Trigun, Fatal Fury,etc there is a lot more.

What do you think about this?


I didn't get to read the entire thing, but I don't think animated fight scenes are intresting at all, so if they stop for dialouge(unless its just flash backs), I generally prefere it that way, and if they just have a black screne that says "In the end Kenshin used his soecial tech and won the fight" I'd be happy to because thats really how the fight will end up(black out screen white light cuts, opponent goes flying(althoguh he should have been cut no matter how dull that word is if it can knock them that far it would bave broken the skin and bones) and Kenshin sheats his sword.).

DBZ is 34905825234 punches from each person all missing or being blocked and then they show one or 3 punches landing on each person, and then they cut to the other characters asking wether or not they can see the fight if a new power up was just made, then for the finished its some kind of energy blast which everyone looks at in awe because they can "feel" the power of it. It happens every 8-10 eps, and until those eps are comes along they sit there and train/wait for Goku.

I am sure 97% of all fight scenes are like this, some one use their special tech way to often, or the animation is just repetitive, so really there is no intresting fight scenes after the first time they use a specific special move.

Only anime I really watch for fight scenes in are gundam, but I just have a love for mech fights, and I love playing Armored Core.


How could you be happy with the vague description you gave.
What you described with Rurouni Kenshin is the result of a company that is lazy. Or a company thats going bankrupt.

Animation is supposed to be visually expressive not full of dialougue. You people are mistaking the differences between manga and Anime. The scene you described would work in manga but not in an anime.

Greennunu If you don't think animated fight scenes are interesting at all than why did you even post your opinion? Why the hell did you even go into this thread if it holds no interest to you?

Thats a self contradiction. And to top it off you say you watch Gundam and love mech fights. Gundam is part of anime is it not. Mech fights are also a part of Mecha anime. This topic is called Anime fight scenes.

Your a liar and a hypocrite.
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bahamut623



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1404

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:36 pm Reply with quote
Kin7cato wrote:
bahamut623 wrote:
Kin7cato wrote:
Bahamut the problem is that in Naruto they display the secrets at the wrong time during the fight. Making the fight more tedious and less entertaining. With 3 episodes showing a character siting around talking or dying. Naruto's timing and organization for dialogue is way over the top. And inappropriate. They really try to strecth it out.


Yeah, I know what you mean, but that's just how alot of manga fights tend to work :\. I'm sure its present in non manga based anime too, but not too such an extreme extent, for example: Samurai Champloo, the fights usually are fast paced without being interrupted by talking, most of the time, anyway.


Bahamut I have seen about 23 episodes of Samurai Champloo and I don't understand what you mean. The fights are fast paced without being interrupted by talking, most of the time.

Why do they do that? Because unlike the other titles I mentioned Samurai Champloo is a lot more realistic.
People kill each other over trivial things like pride. Just to prove they are superior.

Can you give me a better example[ more specific reason] of why Samurai Champloo's fight scenes are bad or too extreme?


Sorry that was badly worded. I was using Champloo as an example of a show that doesnt have long talks in the middle of fights.When I said "not so extreme", I mean that non manga based shows do the midfight talks to, but not for so long.Then I was saying that champloo almost never does.
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Greennunu



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:48 am Reply with quote
Kin7cato wrote:


How could you be happy with the vague description you gave.
What you described with Rurouni Kenshin is the result of a company that is lazy. Or a company thats going bankrupt.

Animation is supposed to be visually expressive not full of dialougue. You people are mistaking the differences between manga and Anime. The scene you described would work in manga but not in an anime.

Greennunu If you don't think animated fight scenes are interesting at all than why did you even post your opinion? Why the hell did you even go into this thread if it holds no interest to you?

Thats a self contradiction. And to top it off you say you watch Gundam and love mech fights. Gundam is part of anime is it not. Mech fights are also a part of Mecha anime. This topic is called Anime fight scenes.

Your a liar and a hypocrite.


Well to answer your first question I posted my opinion because it's my opinion, and this is a forum. I'm sorry I didn't see the sign that prohibited that act, can you redirect me?

2nd thing, If I saw a topic saying "Don't you just love anime fight scenes?" then I will not go into the thread, but you thread title is vague as well, so I want to know the topic of the subject.

As for Gundam I think it falls into the 3% of the 97% that I find intresting, because of my intrest with other things.

As a final note on common sense, when people stating their opinion saying "all" or grouping a large scaled group together to be judge always believe that they are saying "for the most part". Everyone does it at some point in their lives and some do it alot more. Just like people who say, "I don't really like apples at all cept for granny smiths." its common sense to think they don't like most apples but will tolerate granny smith, no intelligent person(unless trying to start a fight) would say "but you just said you didn't like ANY apples! You're a [expletive] liar!".

I'll go ahead and say it right now people like you who try to get their point across by nit picking at other people common mistakes, who uses words for their literal meaning when full knowing what they really meant make me sick.

Let me ask you a question now, if you don't like other people's opinion so much why even post? Is it so you get self gratification from other people agreeing with you?

~ON TOPIC~
I used DBZ/Kenshin as extreme examples of anime fight scenes that turn me off, but even in anime like Trigun or Cowboy Beebop I rarely enjoy the fights, I guess it's because they are usually out in flesh and blood but since it's animated it doesn't have the realism feel to it. As to Mechs I know those people are using giant robots which really don't exist and I haven't seen real robots fight in real life so I rather enjoy imagining those things fight it out.


Last edited by Greennunu on Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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Landon



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 4
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:30 am Reply with quote
You know when Indiana Jones runs into that scimitar-weilding guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark? The scimitar guy draws his blade, swings it around all menacing-like, and gives that "I'm gonna kill you" look to Indy Jones. Then Indy pulls out his gun and blows him away in one shot

I'm waiting for the day when I'm watching NarutoBallYashaOhGXZ and one of the villains does that to the plucky obnoxious hero when he goes into his obligatory mid-fight discourse.

(Note: Bio O has a similar moment but that series already breaks a few molds so it doesn't quite count.)
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joel_s95387



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1804
Location: California... The Village Hidden In The Porn

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:50 am Reply with quote
Landon wrote:
(Note: Bio O has a similar moment but that series already breaks a few molds so it doesn't quite count.)


I love that episode. It aired the other night. I assume you are referring to the episode with Beck where he and his "friends" combine to form that big robot.

I agree that the fight scenes are most time interrupted with dialogue, but you say Champloo doesn't do this but have you seen the last episodes. The guy Mugen and Jin are fighting with waits for them to decide who is going to fight him and who is spoiler[going to go to the island to rescue Fuu]. This is why Gundam is one of my favorite series, specially 08th MS Team and 0083, because fight scenes are not interrupted... often. I think s-CRY-ed did a good job with their fight scenes.

No one forces you to watch these shows so if you don't like them, stop. I personally watch anime because of the stories that are told. I'm tired of cliched American sitcoms and movies so Anime is a great pass time for me. I enjoy fluid animation and un-interrupted fight scenes just as much as the next guy but it does not make the anime. I was able to fully enjoy Samurai Deeper Kyo and the majority of those fight scenes were stills. I'm also pretty sure 20 minute fight scenes cost a whole lot of money and we'll probably get tired of the constant blocking of the atttacks until someone finally gets hurt/killed.
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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Greennunu your still not answering my first question. Of course you have the right to post your opinion in this or any other thread. But if you don't care then why would you be responding? Because you actually do care.

Yes the topic is vague. But I was wrong, I assumed everyone entering the thread would actually have the common sense to read before posting an opinion. I guess common sense isn't so common any more.

Secondly, Greennunu please read everything before you make any claims.

Quote:
As for Gundam I think it falls into the 3% of the 97% that I find intresting, because of my intrest with other things
.
Then you must not like anime very much. Because the only anime you mentioned that you liked is Gundam. And if all you care about is mecha anime no one is going to take you or your opinion seriously or even into consideration.

I'm not trying to start a fight. But what you wrote was a self contradiction. Next time you should think when you write or at least explain your self better.

Quote:
I'll go ahead and say it right now people like you who try to get their point across by nit picking at other people common mistakes, who uses words for their literal meaning when full knowing what they really meant make me sick
.
Because your writing had no organization and poor grammar. I could not understand your full intent. The mistakes you made hindered the intent of your letter. I'm sorry.

Quote:
Let me ask you a question now, if you don't like other people's opinion so much why even post? Is it so you get self gratification from other people agreeing with you?


No thats not ture. I heard other peoples arguments and they were good. Unlike yours. They actually put detailed reasons into why they like certain fight scenes. Like Lapsus saying he likes dialouge in battle because it gives it an intellectual twist.
Or Luminal's explaination about Iliad and its poetic speech.

You even admitted you did not read everything. So if your not willing to even look at others opinions why should anyone care about yours.

I am just expressing what i feel could be improved upon. But at least i read what others think even If I disagree with them.

Quote:
~ON TOPIC
I used DBZ/Kenshin as extreme examples of anime fight scenes that turn me off, but even in anime like Trigun or Cowboy Beebop I rarely enjoy the fights, I guess it's because they are usually out in flesh and blood but since it's animated it doesn't have the realism feel to it. As to Mechs I know those people are using giant robots which really don't exist and I haven't seen real robots fight in real life so I rather enjoy imagining those things fight it out.
[/quote]

Greennunu this proves your opinions are completely biased. You can not truly enjoy any fight scenes with out mechs.

You talk about Trigun and Cowboy Bebop because the fights are between physical beings and you claim that they are unrealistic because they are animated. And then you say you enjoy Gundam because of its unrealistic imagination premise.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. You have a complete double standard. As long as its in mechs its okay to be unrealistic and imaginative. But when its a fight between physical beings you claim it to be unrealistic and therefore dislike it.

Why do you think I called you a hypocrite? Your completely biased. And you are a hypocrite.


Last edited by Kin7cato on Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:53 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Kin7cato



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:26 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I agree that the fight scenes are most time interrupted with dialogue, but you say Champloo doesn't do this but have you seen the last episodes.


Quote:
Bahamut I have seen about 23 episodes of Samurai Champloo and I don't understand what you mean. The fights are fast paced without being interrupted by talking, most of the time.


Joel if you read what I actually wrote you would see that I have not seen the last episodes of Samurai Champloo. I also never said Samurai Champloo is never interrupted with dialouge.
So your accusation is false.

Quote:
This is why Gundam is one of my favorite series, specially 08th MS Team and 0083, because fight scenes are not interrupted... often. I think s-CRY-ed did a good job with their fight scenes.
No one forces you to watch these shows so if you don't like them, stop.


Quote:
This happens in a lot of animes. Even good ones. I'll name a few.

Rurouni Kenshin[TV] , DragonBall Z, Yu Yu Hakashu, Inuyasha,
Naruto, Street Fighter 2 V, 3x3 eyes, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing
Trigun, Fatal Fury,etc there is a lot more.


Joel what are you talking about? I did not say Gundam 08th MS Team or 0083 was even in this category. I said Gundam Wing. And I also did not state that I disliked any of them.
So whats your point exactly?


Quote:
I personally watch anime because of the stories that are told. I'm tired of cliched American sitcoms and movies so Anime is a great pass time for me. I enjoy fluid animation and un-interrupted fight scenes just as much as the next guy but it does not make the anime.


When did I say this? I never did. I don't know why youre accusing me of these false accusations.
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