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The Mike Toole Show - The Spirit of '81


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vashfanatic
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:15 pm Reply with quote
I'm going to go out on a limb here, having read some Hiroki Azuma, and say that next to nothing made today will be a "classic" because anime today isn't made to be classic, or to generate a long-lasting franchise. They're created to make money as quickly as possible by appealing to what they already know fans like. Not that, mind you, shows made 30 years ago weren't trying to make a ton of money; they just didn't have the art of the Disposable Series down as well as the modern field does. You don't want your show to have abiding rewatch value, because then the fans might not buy the next show you make (which will basically be a repackaged version of the last thing you sold them).

The few series that are really great and original tend to fall through the cracks of fandom interest and disappear into the ether. They're there, but they don't get the fanfare that they might have in another decade.

Or to put it another way... the audiences in 1981 had a better eye for quality than the typical otaku in 2011. You can accuse contemporary creators of hackery all you like, but in the end they're making what sells, and what sells isn't "classic" anymore. Sad
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wandering-dreamer



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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Fractale, remembered fondly? Considering that the general consensus was that it was mediocre at best (I have seen several people say they enjoyed the show but I haven't seen anyone call it one of their all time favorites yet) I doubt that will happen, but I do hope that at least some of the other noitaminA anime are remembered in 30 years.
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vashfanatic
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:59 pm Reply with quote
wandering-dreamer wrote:
Fractale, remembered fondly? Considering that the general consensus was that it was mediocre at best (I have seen several people say they enjoyed the show but I haven't seen anyone call it one of their all time favorites yet) I doubt that will happen, but I do hope that at least some of the other noitaminA anime are remembered in 30 years.

Fractale, no way. It also bombed in the ratings.

Probably the biggest noitaminA show was the three series of Nodame Cantabile, but of course none of those have come over to America, ditto for the even more popular live-action series and movies. Nodame Cantabile will likely be considered a classic in Japan, but with nothing but Del Rey's questionably-translated release of the manga here in English, that will not be happening Stateside any time soon.
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littlegreenwolf
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:15 pm Reply with quote
As a fan of all things Holmes I simply MUST somehow get my hands on a copy of LUPIN VERSUS HOLMES.
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salvationtoakuma



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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:34 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
As a fan of all things Holmes I simply MUST somehow get my hands on a copy of LUPIN VERSUS HOLMES.

AGREED. I actually read the book years ago (Arsene Lupin vs Herlock Sholmes). It was.... interesting.
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FaytLein
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:45 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb here, having read some Hiroki Azuma, and say that next to nothing made today will be a "classic" because anime today isn't made to be classic, or to generate a long-lasting franchise. They're created to make money as quickly as possible by appealing to what they already know fans like. Not that, mind you, shows made 30 years ago weren't trying to make a ton of money; they just didn't have the art of the Disposable Series down as well as the modern field does. You don't want your show to have abiding rewatch value, because then the fans might not buy the next show you make (which will basically be a repackaged version of the last thing you sold them).

The few series that are really great and original tend to fall through the cracks of fandom interest and disappear into the ether. They're there, but they don't get the fanfare that they might have in another decade.

Or to put it another way... the audiences in 1981 had a better eye for quality than the typical otaku in 2011. You can accuse contemporary creators of hackery all you like, but in the end they're making what sells, and what sells isn't "classic" anymore. Sad


Well, I don't think its fair to talk about the 80's in Japan since at that time the Japanese economy was the second strongest in the world, which meant that tons of extra cash was laying around, which lead into the OVA boom of that period. (Also, the half joking half serious sentiment in the US at the time was that Japanese firms were going to come in and buy out all of American businesses.)

ALOT of material made in those years was for quick, disposable entertainment, and aside from massive merchandising juggernauts like Gundam and the like, most of those shows, while maybe remembered fondly, aren't exactly hot commodities now, probably in no small part due to the economic crash of the 90's, which lead into less "less make it becuase we can!" mindset to the "we need to pay the rent this week, lets bang something out for the fanbase." I don't think that the inventive spirit of the 80's was traded in for crass commericalism, its just studios can't take the risks that they could back in the heyday, one or two flops now would almost certainly spell certain doom for animation studios, and when money and livelihood is concerned, people will take the certain money that will come in, as opposed to trying to do something that will make them lose money.

And "quality anime" is a quality so nebulous, so uncertain, that it is impossible to make a show that everyone will like. You will always have your anti-whatever factions out there nitpicking everything to death because it doesn't hold up to their personal appeal checklist. You just have to roll the dice and see what comes up, and ignore those that bash for the sake of bashing.
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GATSU



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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:48 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
So they solved this problem in the usual way, and just made up their own character, a little girl named Flone. I love this solution, because it's weirdly and hilariously disrespectful of the source material-- we're all moaning because a messy New York-based adaptation of Akira seems to be looming on the Hollywood horizon, but this approach certainly isn't limited to Hollywood.


They're not really changing the main story, though, like they are in the Hollywood Akira. They're just trying to add something to appeal to a broader audience. It's like how they changed the suits in X-Men to cash in on the Matrix. It's still the same story, but a different wardrobe.
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ThatOneMan



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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:03 pm Reply with quote
The first time I heard of the Lupin vs Holmes special was actually on a Toei TV specials flier. In any case I do actually have a Spanish dubbed version of that. Haven't watched it though since I don't really understand spanish.
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vashfanatic
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:20 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
And "quality anime" is a quality so nebulous, so uncertain, that it is impossible to make a show that everyone will like. You will always have your anti-whatever factions out there nitpicking everything to death because it doesn't hold up to their personal appeal checklist. You just have to roll the dice and see what comes up, and ignore those that bash for the sake of bashing.

Well, I put "classic" in quotes for a reason (a number of the shows he names here I don't personally care for) and I absolutely agree with you about the issue of the economy in terms of the risks that studios want to take. Disposable Shows, as I called them, are a quick way to make money in an uncertain market; I don't fault them for making them.

But I also agree with Azuma that there's been a shift in the otaku (read: nerds in general) audience away from wanting the long-running shows with every-expanding universes in favor of cleverly rearranged story and character elements that have an innate appeal. And while many of the shows made today are great, they are not designed to have lasting power beyond a relatively brief anime run, with some merchandising. It's just how the market is right now. Maybe this change is permanent, maybe it's a phase we're working through in the recession, I don't know.

In the meantime, I just try to enjoy the shows I can, even if they may be forgotten gems in the future. Which reminds me: I should re-watch Kaiba sometime...
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comics0026



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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:42 am Reply with quote
Can somebody please tell me what the Heika Meme is? I've never heard of it before (or perhaps not referred to as such) and I'm curious as to what it is, but Google has been of no help in this search, only bringing up references to it, but not what it is. Sad
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coral422



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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:49 am Reply with quote
Fractale would be regarded as a classic in the next 30 years if watching Fractale was the only thing we can do on a Saturday morning.

But I do want to say that most anime nowadays will never go past the test of time, simply because it does not have the innovation that anime had back in '81. Reinventing the wheel is just that hard.
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luffypirate85



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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:43 am Reply with quote
Ha ha!! How funny I read this because I had the GoShogun theme song stuck in my head ALL DAY LONG.

"Uchuu supeesu nanbaa wan!"
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Norbie



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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:58 am Reply with quote
Captain Future all the way!!!!!!!
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errinundra
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:40 am Reply with quote
Mike, you need to look beyond TV and cinema.

The first Daicon short film came out in 1981. It's no classic (unlike the following year's effort) but it sure was the start of something big.
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Melanchthon



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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:01 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Just a year or two later, American children would delight to the adventures of Belle and Sebastian, as the show was retitled for broadcast on Nickelodeon, and just another fifteen years later, a goofy indie rock band would totally steal the name of that show for their act, thus confounding my Google searches for the series forever!


What.

Belle and Sebastian is greatest indie band of all time! Take that back or I will be forced to challenge you to a bout of fisticuffs, my good sir. Bunch of cretins wouldn't know good music if it bit them in the ass. Seriously, though--I hate you.

Anyway, I took you up on your challenge and took a look at 2010. At my count, there were seven shows that I believe stand a chance of becoming classics, and even left the the sequel to K-On off, because I doubt that it will be remembered.

Katanagatari --AniDB rating:8.82 (1413)
Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya --AniDB rating:9.26 (1424)
Second East of Eden Movie --AniDB rating:7.37 (510)
Angel Beats --AniDB rating:8.27 (2514)
Tatami Galaxy --AniDB rating:8.71 (541)
Shiki --AniDB rating:8.20 (936)
Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt --AniDB rating:7.68 (623)

The big difference is not in quality, but it quantity. The majority of shows in '81 might have been good, whereas in '10 these seven shows are in a distinct minority. This happens in all forms of entertainment and is to be expected. And we can not forget that humanity has a character flaw--we tend to see the past as some sort of 'Golden Age' and willfully ignore all the problems the past actually had (often because we were kids and didn't actually notice all the problems). If you asked me what was better, your ten shows from '81 or these seven from '10, I would pick the '10 season hands down.
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