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I think that it's perfectly exceptable to call comics written by americans as 'manga'. This manga...even the bad ones...are veeery different from the typical 'comic book'. Take, for example, MegaTokyo--regardless on how you feel about the series, I don't think many people would say that it's like Spider-Man, or even Archie (although it's closer to that than any other comic book, for sure). It's not JUST the art style, but the writing is different, as well.

I agree with those who say that using the term 'Global Manga' is similar to using the term 'J-Pop' (which even the Japanese use, I might add). It shows how the country(ies) in question have taken a genre that originated in a different country and made it their own. Nothing wrong with that, I think.

Anime World Order wrote:

There is already a perfectly established and acceptable term for what Tokyopop is now calling "global manga."

"Comicbooks."

Anime World Order wins the thread. Seriously, are they just not getting it? If it's not japanese it's not manga. They may fool a few people by referring to it as such, but the majority of us just aren't buying it.

i consider it a manga based on the format that was used, much like a comic book is a comic book because of the way it looks. the blame artist worked on a wolverine title as a comic book. in no way do i consider it a manga because it had a japanese artist working on it and probably aimed at getting comic book fans use to anime style. if they made it black and white, shrunk it down and combined it all to a small little book, i'll call it a manga. if they kept it's size and made a soft cover trade, it's a graphic novel. reading both comics and mangas, to me it's how it's presented. globally comics is the bigger industry and to say calling something a "comic" would make it not sell would be silly.
in the end, it doesn't matter how they dress up the book to me, if it's a decent story and has nice character design, they can call it crap and i will still read it.

I've mostly been calling the stuff "big-eyes comics that don't come from Japan," because people get all pissy, for whatever silly reasons, about the terms Ameri-manga and OEL. Having an "official" lable now is good.

Where did they get this global part from? How is it "global?" Is this implying that Japanese mangaka are all pure japanese who have never left their apartment in Tokyo? This doesn't change the fact that all they are selling is manga that was created IN ENGLISH. Therefore OEL is the accurate term. The creators may be from around the world but it does not change that the fact that what they are publishing is in english. Just like manwa is korean.

This is just a substitute marketing term to try and salvage whats left of a failure. The best part is, it's their own fault that it failed.

Not to intentionally split hairs here...but TOKYOPOP didn't coin the term "World Manga." That was actually Seven Seas that originally created and used that term to describe its titles when we launched. The first article on it can be found here:
http://www.gomanga.com/news/features_gomanga_002.php

Also, worth noting...
Seven Seas has the www.worldmanga.com and www.oelmanga.com domain names.
I wonder if that was a factor in this sudden change as TP now has www.globalmanga.com redirecting to their website?

bayoab wrote:

Where did they get this global part from? How is it "global?" Is this implying that Japanese mangaka are all pure japanese who have never left their apartment in Tokyo? This doesn't change the fact that all they are selling is manga that was created IN ENGLISH. Therefore OEL is the accurate term.

No, OEL is not the accurate term because not all of these titles were originally meant for an English language release. Yonen Buzz was originally written for Germany and released there, then in France, and only then in the USA. So the term "OEL" applies to it about as much as it applies to Hikaru no Go. Not at all.

Oh, here we go again. You'll still catch me using the term American manga though, even if it isn't the most accurate term. Forget about 100% accuracy. People complain about "manga" being used incorrectly. I generally say comics, which seems to work, but when I want to refer to manga-style comics done by American creators, all this stuff starts happening. There's no end to it really, I understand what people are referring to when they say Ameri-manga or OEL and that's fine.

Quote:

"The fact that manga fans have largely stopped using the term Ameri-manga (which has negative connotations)..."

And who's fault is that, Tokyopop? If the majorty of so-called Ameri-manga was any good, then the term wouldn't be so negative, would it?

Patachu wrote:

And a spade is still a spade.

Do you mean spade as in shovel, spade as in the card suit or spade as in the racsist term for black people? Smile

Patachu wrote:

..."Marketing gimmick" my ass.

Elf Quest was just a normal comic book series until the recent manga boom. Now it's availible in manga size, and sold in the manga section of stores. Hmm, I wonder why? Is it because older people like to see their favorite comics shrunk, chopped up, and printed in black & white? Or is it because younger people are more likely to buy a manga than US comic books? I dunno about you, but I'm going with #2.

stagedive_25 wrote:

You and other old-school otakus need to get over this "non-Japanese" comic bias. Accept the fact that you're biased to anything not Japanese.

No. "Bias" would suggest that I blindly supported manga over non-Japanese comics, and that I was using the term "manga" as a title that denotes "superior quality." However, neither is the case, as I tend to be more critical of manga than I am of most other countries' comics, I quite regularly embrace good American and European comics just as readily as I do Japanese manga, and after all that, it shouldn't be hard to figure out that I do not use the term "manga" as a quality label.

I simply prefer to use a geographically based term to refer to an object's geographical base. Japanese comics are manga, American comics are graphic novels, Korean comics are manwha, Chinese comics are manhua, and if France or Britain or Brazil or freaking Morocco concoct some slick little buzzword for their comic art, then I'll use that, too. Now really, tell me where there's bias in that.

red stranger wrote:

Elf Quest was just a normal comic book series until the recent manga boom. Now it's availible in manga size, and sold in the manga section of stores. Hmm, I wonder why? Is it because older people like to see their favorite comics shrunk, chopped up, and printed in black & white? Or is it because younger people are more likely to buy a manga than US comic books? I dunno about you, but I'm going with #2.

They did that, those bastards.
I mean you hear about manga artists complain all the time about how thier artistic integrity is compromised when anything is changed from the original works. And I think they have every right too. So that is just plain wrong Twisted Evil

:has sick feeling:

Last edited by Patachu on Fri May 05, 2006 7:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

In conclusion, Tokyopop is just dicking around with us, it's all a game of domain names, and Bastard Comics could be the hit new buzzword of the year. The haters get to call it something insulting and the fanpeople get their pseudo-hip sense of smugness.

I come to the conclusion that 'manga' is a term that really should not exist. It doesn't have a crystal clear definition. Some might say that it refers to Japanese comics, but what if a comic was written by a person of Japanese decent who's been living in a country other than Japan for several generations? Would it be called manga just because the author is of Japanese decent?

What about people living in Japan who have one Japanese relative, would their comics be considered manga. And of course, style isn't a good way to define manga either with all the different appearances that 'manga' can make.

But I'm going to keep using the term 'manga' to describe manga by Japanese people because that's what I'm used to and because the examples that I mentioned above haven't come up for me yet.

As for 'global manga', I think 'graphic novel' or 'comics' are acceptable labels. But being a business, Tokyopop probably wants to use the term 'manga' for marketing reasons (someone else mentioned this, so no point in repeating it).

Anime World Order wrote:

Not quite. Smile

I strongly disapprove of Tokyopop's (highly effective) marketing technique of convincing non-Japanese creators that if they draw their comicbook in a certain fashion, then they can proclaim themselves a creator of "manga." Certainly, I understand why they did it. Not only does it sell a dream to their fanbase that they too can be a "manga" artist if they just learn to mimic the visual conventions of your average shonen and shojo title--certainly none of these "global manga" titles have art styles bearing similarities to say, Golgo 13--without necessarily adapting any of the underlying elements, it allows them to apply the marketable "manga" buzzword to a variety of other titles that may look similar to manga to the uninitiated (read: retailers) but actually are not. Why would they do that? Well, it's far cheaper to release those other titles than it is to actually license and localize real manga. Plus, they own the "manga style" comics lock, stock, and barrel.

Tokyopop and the other like-minded publishers (such as the various parties behind the barrage of different "How to Draw Manga" books), may have successfully convinced people that "manga" actually means "big eyes, sweatdrops, and speed lines," and folks can vehemently argue for the "evolution of the word" to their heart's desire, but I still say that the only way for "manga" to be a useful word among the English-speaking anime fan vernacular is for it to denote "Japanese comicbooks," end of story. Of course, the would-be "global manga" artist might want to say "but what MAKES a comicbook Japanese?" I personally consider a comicbook to be "Japanese" if it is first and foremost targeted towards a Japanese audience. The original language would therefore be Japanese and the creative forces behind it would almost assuredly also be Japanese. That's my criteria for being a "Japanese comicbook," or "manga." Nothing complex, no "but what about THIS?" cases. There is already a perfectly established and acceptable term for what Tokyopop is now calling "global manga."

"Comicbooks."

Practically a dirty word, particularly to retailers looking to stock shelves with something that sells (which "comicbooks" do not), but honestly folks, that's what "non-English language manga" is. This "Ameri-/Original English Language/World/Global" shell game needs to be recognized by fans for what it is: marketing hype targeted towards people who don't know any better.

We're smarter than that. Aren't we?

burzmali wrote:

Graphic Novel may be more correct in some cases, as comicbook suggests something fluffier than many manga artists aspire to.

Perhaps. I always find it amusing when comicbook fans fire off the "it's not a comicbook, it's a GRAPHIC NOVEL!" defense, particularly since I have certainly never encountered any US fans to date that get belligerent and say "it's not manga, it's GEKIGA!"

QFT & QFE, because this deserves to be read by all.

Here's a very relevant link regarding the forcible subjugation of the definitions of anime and manga as connatative definitions, or rather, adjectives, of mere style. Which while existing as a general form, does not have any conformed standard. Basically I mean that there's no "manga style," but a "general manga style" does exist (and being used as the factor deciding what gets to be calls "manga" o'er here these days).

http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1211

I personally vouch for the term "manga-influenced comic" (MIC) because that's what they are (general enough, but not too broad). Though I personally use "pseudo-manga" and to some degree, "world manga." It'd be nice to have a definite term to describe such a class of comic. I guess manhwa is a good example: it evolved from its native style and form due to manga influences and while being similar to manga, is now its own thing. Of course Korea already had the term as it's their word for comics (which is why I don't call it MIC, or manga, and call it manhwa), but still, it is a good example of MIC.

minakichan wrote:

The ENGLISH version of the same word, however, is "MANE-guh." Because that's how they pronounce it.

Say what? I thought it was always pronounced "mon-ga". The only people that pronounce it the other way are the ones that never heard the word spoken.
I guess I get some slack since I speak Spanish and it's spoken the same way (although, it translates to "sleeve").
-Nevermind, we have enough of a debate on our hands.

As for the issue:
The best way for me to think of Global-Manga is the same way Reggae is it's own genre as opposed to being clumped with World/Jamaican Music. This case being that Reggae has world wide influence.

Looking at it from this prespective, I guess that would make manga Ska Wink

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