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Male bonding in Heroes: brotherly love or something more?




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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3121
Location: Seattle bound (soon)

PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:10 pm Reply with quote
This is related to another thread (see 2nd page):
animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24479
And regarding my last post in that thread, as I have said, I would start a new topic related to anime heroes who have relationships that are used to propel their acheivements to change the world, or are simple desires based on mutual longing for another. This mutual longing can either be necessary as a trait between strong men to support each other (ie "brotherly love") or can be romantic in nature (ie a homosexual relationship).

I am hoping comments discussion will pertain not just specifically to men but to heroes in anime. Viewpoints from both women and men on this topic are very welcome, and perhaps it can continue by discussing the nature of the relationship between Griffith and Guts (aka Gatsu) from Berserk (a very good example).
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:55 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I suggested it. The manga and the anime is the same on that part, so.....Casca noticed that Griffith changed quite a bit when he encountered Guts. Griffith treated Guts differenty than everybody else, even if Guts were to recklessly go out ahead of the line and clear a path during battle, he didn't give a crap. Griiffith wanted Guts to share in his dream, to help him achieve his kingdom. It's funny that when Guts left the Hawk, Griffth just broke.
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jaybug39



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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Location: Oregon, Is it FOOTBALL yet?

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:30 pm Reply with quote
Just a thought but as homosexuality was favored in feudal Japan, and it seems that modern Japan is working its' way back there, perhaps more and more anime in the future will have heroes who just aren't interested so much in women. Not to say that they will be gay, after all ancient greeks and such are well known for man to man "talks." But they did sire children, as that was what one did. Unless you wanted some nasty camp followers disease.

But saying this, I wonder how this will affect anime in the US. I can't imagine us letting go of 4 centuries of puritan effect. It could spark a furious anti-anime movement, should it seem that anime was trying to "make our kids gay." This faction will not be accepting of the fact that other cultures have other ideas.

I am not in favor of this happening, however I don't think I could watch an anime as you describe without keeping my butt clenched. Unless it was a side issue, say the story of Alexander the Great, or some story where "love" is part, but not the main part of the story.
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JoshuaStChristopher



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:14 pm Reply with quote
To be totally honest, I think a lot of the time it's just fangirls looking way too far into things, and assuming stuff that isn't really true.

The only example that is coming to my currently dead brain is the whole ordeal with Death Note, having heard people say there was lots of yaoi-esque tension. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I never once got that vibe. Perhaps it is just different depending on your own viewpoint, but essentially what I'm saying is that--most of the time--it's, as stated, just fangirls reading too much into something.
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Aizen



Joined: 30 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:20 pm Reply with quote
The idea of two heroes sharing a bond that will strengthen both of them is actually an ancient idea in Japan. From what I've read, when a samurai would take on an aprentice a deep bond would be formed. It was a mix of love and friendship that could be sexual or not. This bond allowed them to find strength in each other through their training and during battle, and thus was considered acceptable and beneficial. After Christian missionaries came to Japan however, this practice was frowned upon and mostly died out. The fact that it's been seen in anime has more to do with the fact that it is simply a part of Japanese history rather than because there is some sort of movement towards homosexuality in Japan. However, I do think the fact that it's appearing more and more in anime shows that people are really starting to open up to the issues of the homosexual community and are at least somewhat willing to ackgnowledge and discuss them. It's ridiculous to say that anime will start turning people gay, because you can't make someone gay in the first place (unless of course you think it's a choice which opens up a whole new discussion). Thus I see this as a positive indication that maybe people are starting to accept homosexuality and are becoming at least somewhat less ignorant, hopefully leading to a more accepting world.
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JoshuaStChristopher



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:26 pm Reply with quote
Aizen wrote:
...and are becoming at least somewhat less ignorant, hopefully leading to a more accepting world.


I hate to say this, but it's never* going to happen. There's always going to be hate and bigotry, no matter what. It's human nature. Don't get me wrong, it's a really nice thought, but if we're being realistic we know that it's not going to happen.

*and before one of you accuse me of something or other, note that this is a smidgen of a hyperbole, but I still stand by it.
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Aizen



Joined: 30 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm Reply with quote
I'm not saying that everyone in the world will accept everyone else, that is impossible. I just meant that hopefully, like with racism and sexism, it will become a more prominent issue, one that at least a greater number of people will accept. Sorry if I sounded too idealistic although sometimes I like to think that way.
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Deltakiral



Joined: 07 Oct 2004
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Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK)

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:50 pm Reply with quote
jaybug39 wrote:
Not to say that they will be gay, after all ancient greeks and such are well known for man to man "talks." But they did sire children, as that was what one did. Unless you wanted some nasty camp followers disease.

Not to make it seems less worse what the greek did, it wasn't like they were gay. More or less because women were consider inferious to men, therefore love making was believe to be that, worse with a women. It was like lowering your social status, all the famous philiospher did it.
Back to the matter at hand, I do think that in anime we will see more open view on sexuality as people seem to become more open with the idea.
Till next time,

Delta Kiral
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jaybug39



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 552
Location: Oregon, Is it FOOTBALL yet?

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:05 pm Reply with quote
Well Delta, we will see more of it, provided the Japanese people consume more and more of it. Could be, if fangirls want it. Just think 14 year old girls decided who was tops of the pop charts from the 1950s until at least the mid- 90s. Why? They were the ones buying the singles.

Aizen, you ever hear of paragraphs? Anyway "I dream of a day when people are judged by the content of their character, not the color of thier skin." But put gay in for color. And "Can't we all just get along?" I agree with Joshua, not yet, if ever. Which is why I wrote what I did. Just because I don't want to watch it, does not mean that it isn't ok to make such.

I actually hope that homosexuality, racism,sexism, etc. become non-issues. It will be too "normal" to bother about. Worry about things like food and water for everyone. Things our lives actually depend upon. Wow, that would be different.

Europe used to have something akin to Joshua's mention of Japanese "mentoring." About everything from artists, to sailors did this. Start in the "program" when about 8 years old, and work your way to the top of your field. Read Irving Stone's Agony and the Ecstasy, biography of Michaelangelo. Read also Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey-Maturin series of books.
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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: Seattle bound (soon)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:35 pm Reply with quote
I've meant to be more participative in my thread that I started, but maybe to get this rolling again (it's interesting stuff) we can talk about Okama, which I've learned from in the latest episode of Ouran HS Host Club. The main character's father is an okama, but I looked up the word and it is simply the Japanese word for a gay man. But there are a few things I am unclear about. First of all spoiler[Mr Fujioka has a daughter and has been widowed from his wife because she apparently died] Second of all, he spoiler[crossdresses (and is quite an attractive woman)] but as is common in Western countries, but maybe not Japan, TS/TV/TG's are generally heterosexual. Plus it seems ironic that both members of the Fujioka family crossdress out of their disphoric tendencies toward the opposite sex. So why is Fujioka-san called an Okama (is it because he works at an Okama bar?)?
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Randall Miyashiro



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:02 pm Reply with quote
jaybug39 wrote:
Europe used to have something akin to Joshua's mention of Japanese "mentoring." About everything from artists, to sailors did this. Start in the "program" when about 8 years old, and work your way to the top of your field. Read Irving Stone's Agony and the Ecstasy, biography of Michaelangelo. Read also Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey-Maturin series of books.


Not to mention the rather close relationship between Aubrey and Stephen. I'll admit that I've yet to read the series (so many books) but in film adaptation of Far Side of the World the two seem to share a Guts Griffith style respect. I think it's the British perspective, which can also be seen in the Lord of the Rings (a series which I've read a dozen times) and is often missing in the States. Since there are a good number of forum people from the UK, maybe they can confirm this. I've always been under the impression that the US tends to be rather homophobic.
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Kelly



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:55 pm Reply with quote
Randall Miyashiro wrote:
I've always been under the impression that the US tends to be rather homophobic.


In the bible belt, yes. I think people are generally a little more tolerant on the coasts though. It also varies from city to city and even from neighborhood to neighborhood.
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Past



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: Seattle bound (soon)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Hmm, interesting. Yes most countries besides the US do seem more accepting of homosexuality and other non-traditional gender related issues. Perhaps because it has been more or less a part of the history and culture of particular societies. The U.S. on the other hand is such a melting pot, mostly of Christian-oriented cultures, that minority groups such as homosexuals have always been overlooked and not given a fair share of representation of the population as a whole.

Well I wanted to relate what I asked about Okama to the topic of Heroes in anime. I think in order to be a hero one must take the fatherly role and treat his team members as his children in a way. Just as Haruhi's father does. But fathers can't be leaders if they are seen as too loving and emotional as those traits are seen as signs of weakness. Perhaps that's why Haruhi choses to be like a boy, to compensate for her father's lack of masculinity.
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