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NEWS: How the 2020 Olympics Might Affect Comiket & More


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TsukasaElkKite



Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 3945
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:26 am Reply with quote
Oh great, more censorship...
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 2581
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:28 am Reply with quote
Gatsu, what is with all the unwarranted hate on Brazil, I think you have already made it crystal clear your stance on the situation and simply going on in circles effectively yelling "I hate Moe I hate modern otaku culture" doesn't add anything more to what you have already said.
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mewpudding101
Industry Insider


Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2204
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:58 am Reply with quote
That's ridiculous. I don't want to miss three Comikets because they want to make the Olympics look shiny.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:12 am Reply with quote
Daemon: There are more than two parties in America, too. They just don't have the deep pockets to buy votes like the GOP and Democratic Party.

Guile:
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This sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are asserting there is no original or mainstream anime being produced.


I'm not saying there's no original and/or mainstream anime being produced. It's just that it's harder for them to get funded.

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In actuality there are dozens of mainstream anime being produced at a time and turning a profit for studios and marketers.


Marketers, yes. Studios, no, or animators wouldn't be doing as badly as someone working at McDonald's.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:56 am Reply with quote
The animators have always been paid in peanuts, so that's irrelevant to the content they produce.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3717
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:20 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:

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They have always had interest by foreign investors


You mean the same foreign investors who complained about their awful trade laws and tariffs?

You think the US doesn't have restrictive trade laws and tariffs either? Do you know why the US primarily relies on HFCS while the rest of the world uses real sugar? However, I was referring to monetary investments. As in I personally, or some other institution can go in with my money and invest in the Japanese economy, own stocks, open up bank accounts, and save in yen, etc.

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Prior to the BOJ's inflation of the yen (pressured by Abe), Japan was where foreign investors wanted to park their money it. Now a lot of foreign capital has fled Japan.


They probably were planning to leave Japan, anyway, so they can opt for an Asian country with sweatshops and horrible building codes.

You need to look up Marginal Utility. The economic activity from hiring that "cheap labor" is exactly what will get them out of poverty.

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They are inflating the yen (and buying up assets and trying to pump up Japanese stocks) in order to artificially boost the domestic industry by devaluing the yen (inflating the money) to make their exports cheaper! Many think it's good, but it's not.


So it's better to stick with prices so high that even the Japanese can't afford a decent standard of living there?

You seem to have no understanding about what I'm talking about. I'm saying everything that they are doing now for the last two years is causing prices to increase. I am saying: government stimulation = inflation = bad. Inflation = increase money supply into circulation --> higher prices. Inflation = devaluing the currency. Inflation = lowers the exchange rate of yen to dollar. Makes exports cheaper at the expense of domestic products being more expensive. Kill savings and retirement accounts. What they should have done is NOT interfere. Let capital investment flow into Japan. Let savers be rewarded. Let the yen appreciate (and ignore the cries about "deflation", because if anything that's a good thing), and let domestic prices drop or at least be stable. (export and trade gets too involved to get into here, but that is also easily addressable without inflation, or even with deflation)

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No welfare. But the government could have had a private savings and investment mechanism long ago (perhaps incentivized).


Yeah, that really worked out for us over here, where no one can effing retire, because Wall Street bet our savings on derivatives.

Again, this was because of inteference and monetary policy. Banks needed to fail and certain people and certain investment needed to be wiped out. There HAS to be regular failure in a healthy market, but there weren't any because of government propping up many sectors.

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And who you think is paying for the Olympics? They are almost all money loosing propositions. And any hiring will be temporary.


I don't know any sporting event which loses money.

Then you are woefully ignorant. If a sporting event does not loose money, then why would they need government financing or subsidies? Those sports stadiums are actually money loosers -- again an example of government interference. Paid for by taxes, whose gains go to sports teams.

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As far as the closure of the decades old strip club, first, as I said: you've got no principles. Why is it ok to close this particular business down in that area, just to try to save face or prevent offending IOC sensibilities? Pure popularism or utilitarianism whether domestic or foreign is unethical.


It's probably ok, if the only people visiting those places are likely to be junkies and gang-members.

Rolling Eyes sigh.. just pathetic

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Contrast that with how Brazil is handling the world cup, or allowing various businesses to handle it:


Brazil's a gentrified ghetto, dude. No one should be using them as an economic model.

See BRICS. They've got problems, but the populace is surprisingly more concerned about spending and less so about social issues than the US, and are willing to do something about it. Considering they've protested en masse over Pope's visit spending and even soccer spending.

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This is actually a large organization representing the sex workers organizing this, and Brazil isn't panicing to shut them down


So Brazil's just basically saying,"Who cares if any of the soccer players get the clap or AIDS? All that matters is our hookers are bilingual."

Rolling Eyes Another pathetic response. I'll just refer you to FenixFiesta

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That seems to be changing, given the population decline and the fact that the otaku once again prevent animation studios from actually making a living off of original or mainstream works.

Once again, you're being mendacious here. How exactly is someone voluntarily buying someone something they want "force" or prevent other people? Anime is NOT a fixed size pie. (Unfortunately I see this attitude often, not just with anime) Again, refer to the new 140+ shows a year. And you're dishonestly trying to make reality fit your narrative. Just because a few shows you hate sell well does not mean that all of its kind would sell well--and they most certainly do not--nor does it mean others not of its kind wouldn't do well either, because many others do.

Guile already responded with some examples, and in fact, they are constantly produced. How do you explain the huge popularity of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure in Japan or Attack on Titan or funding of sports shows? This is just a handful of titles out of many that are again, constantly produced.

In fact, the great irony is that you're missing where REAL, substantial force is used: that by the Japanese government, which you seem to agree with, not just in the economy in general, but in social matters for Olympic sensibilities, as I cited. It's probably due to your agreement with them on the actions taken that you've missed the fact that it is an abuse of power.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:18 am Reply with quote
Don't you get it congifspace? The constant production of shows that aren't moe is only due to constant luck, and certainly not related to the idea that there could possibly be other markets and fanbases who also buy what they want and thus get similar shows produced. Nope, no pattern that's reinforced and duplicated every single season, just pure luck. I sure am so glad someone as intelligent and thoughtful as GATSU is around to set the record straight, or I may have had to believe findings that were supported and able to be replicated.

Yessir, all of those non-moe shows that are constantly produced? Just flukes, every last one of them. It is heresy to believe that markets can coexist, and that anime is not a zero sum game.
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Rederoin



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 1427
Location: Europa
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:19 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:


Here you go. NSFW.

That did not explain anything.

So you know what? fudge it, you're impossible to argue with. You even refuse to explain what you mean with those so called 'moe shows'. Stop speaking in code-words only you understand.
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kanechin



Joined: 21 Jan 2012
Posts: 447
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:20 am Reply with quote
even if the LDP get their way that would only destroy anime/manga/VNs/doujins (but not novels...which ishihara needs to sell) with young characters being sexualized.
Moe probably will still do well.
I hate most moe anime but censorship or bans is not the way.
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 1074
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:56 am Reply with quote
rederoin wrote:
GATSU wrote:


Here you go. NSFW.

That did not explain anything.

So you know what? fudge it, you're impossible to argue with. You even refuse to explain what you mean with those so called 'moe shows'. Stop speaking in code-words only you understand.


Indeed. Their world view does not run on logic, facts and well thought out and sensible arguments, but on emotions, assumptions and baseless, generalized opinions that are touted as facts. Best leave them be and not waste your time arguing with them.

Closer to the main topic though, I honestly can't understand why people can't be a little more accepting and understanding.

Yes, there are things out there that you might not agree with or find disagreeable, but as long as no one is getting hurt of you aren't forced to partake in it what you dislike, why not just leave them be?

There's hardly any link between 2D sexualized loli and real-life sex crimes, no one is getting hurt in the production and consumption process... What's the issue here? Why go about forcing your own morals and beliefs on others and dictating what others can or cannot indulge in?

Of course, this is not only limited to loli. Violent video games, homosexuality, etc... I just can't understand it.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:47 pm Reply with quote
config:
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As in I personally, or some other institution can go in with my money and invest in the Japanese economy, own stocks, open up bank accounts, and save in yen, etc.


What good is it owning stocks in a company which needs to be overhauled, anyway?

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You need to look up Marginal Utility. The economic activity from hiring that "cheap labor" is exactly what will get them out of poverty.


Apparently, you've been ignoring the whole gap between the rich and poor being the highest since the 20s thing.

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What they should have done is NOT interfere.


So it's better for them to be stuck with a 20+ year old recession?

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Banks needed to fail and certain people and certain investment needed to be wiped out. There HAS to be regular failure in a healthy market, but there weren't any because of government propping up many sectors.


I actually agree with you there, except that innocent people still lost their shirts, either way. So they still get screwed.

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If a sporting event does not loose money, then why would they need government financing or subsidies? Those sports stadiums are actually money loosers -- again an example of government interference. Paid for by taxes, whose gains go to sports teams.


Right, they're such money losers that HBO is willing to black out television signals over them.

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How exactly is someone voluntarily buying someone something they want "force" or prevent other people?


If that's the only thing they're buying, and they're buying it more than other genres, who do you think gets priority?

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Just because a few shows you hate sell well does not mean that all of its kind would sell well--


Again, they do not have to sell "well". They only have to sell above a fixed quota for them to spin it as a "hit".

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How do you explain the huge popularity of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure in Japan


The manga's just been there forever, long before the otaku got in.

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or Attack on Titan or funding of sports shows?


The Japanese like sports in general. So there's a market for sports series, too. That's another trend which predated the otaku which is not going to change. As for Attack on Titan, I think the fans over there needed a series to vent over all the post-Fukushima fears and tensions and losses, so it just came at the right time.

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In fact, the great irony is that you're missing where REAL, substantial force is used: that by the Japanese government, which you seem to agree with, not just in the economy in general, but in social matters for Olympic sensibilities, as I cited.


Probably 'cus they're at least trying to do something for their society, unlike otaku who stab people in the street and/or kidnap children. Rolling Eyes

walw:
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and certainly not related to the idea that there could possibly be other markets and fanbases who also buy what they want


There aren't other demos who go for that crap, but it's a buyer's niche market, so it has the advantage.

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Yessir, all of those non-moe shows that are constantly produced? Just flukes, every last one of them.


Exactly.

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It is heresy to believe that markets can coexist, and that anime is not a zero sum game.


They can coexist, but one's currently flatlining the other.

Actar:
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Yes, there are things out there that you might not agree with or find disagreeable, but as long as no one is getting hurt of you aren't forced to partake in it what you dislike, why not just leave them be


Again, creators with original and/or more mainstream ideas are being hurt.

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Violent video games, homosexuality, etc... I just can't understand it.


Uh, violent video games have also caused a similar problem among game developers here. They cannot get anything which isn't a cut-and-paste FPS funded.
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Parse Error



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 592
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:56 pm Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
They can coexist, but one's currently flatlining the other.

No, that's not what's been happening. The segment of the anime industry that caters to otaku is the late night market, where the series function as advertisements not only for the home video releases, but also the source material, music and drama CDs, and other merchandise. In other words, its business model was always heavily dependent on otaku. They didn't take over that market, it was designed specifically with them in mind from the outset.

As it happens, they've supported this system so well that it's grown exponentially while the more mainstream daytime anime has not. Otaku haven't done anything except for purchasing the products that were made for their sake. It's people like you who are the envious outsiders longing to forcibly take over what others built if you could. If there truly were this massive, lucrative market for more of the things you like, then it would be insane for these companies to keep making quite a few otaku-oriented shows that sell less than or just barely 3,000 copies per volume, instead of ones that could easily sell tens of thousands of discs per volume. Surely the difference in profits would pay for enough personal security that those responsible would not have to live in fear of being smothered by some disenfranchised otaku's hug pillow in the middle of the night!

The reason why original projects have such a hard time being greenlit isn't fear of inciting some sort of otaku jihad, it's simply because most of them have nothing to promote in order to generate revenue. The party pitching such a project either has to be someone like a superstar director whose track record indicates a very good chance they could launch a hit multimedia franchise, something like a business or government that is willing and able provide much of the funding itself, or similarly, somebody who's already secured enough crowdfunding to pay for it outright.

Adaptations are easy because they already have a well-established publisher who wants to advertise their manga or light novels, they know the approximate size of the existing audience and whether it can at least offset the production costs by buying discs, and they already have longstanding business relationships with potential additional investors, such as record companies who can use it to promote their music. If some nobody comes around who can't promise anything more than "we might sell some discs with this," of course companies aren't just going to hand them money. You might want to believe otherwise, but you probably would not risk that amount of money under those circumstances if you had it.

There is, however, something you can do with no money at all that would be infinitely more constructive than fretting over other people liking things you don't like. Have you ever heard of Straight Title Robot Anime? It was made using MikuMikuDance, which is free software. If you put together a team of like-minded people, you all could sacrifice a portion of the time otherwise spent on posting rants in order to produce more of the kind of content you'd like to see made. It certainly won't rival Studio Ghibli when it comes to aesthetics, but that's what otaku were doing except using much more labor-intensive hand-painted cells back in the early eighties, and just look at all the content they have now.

Your turn might be next, but it's ultimately up to you and those who share your interests to make it so, the same as otaku have already done. Just as you have no obligation to support ecchi harem comedies or other shows you don't like, you can't expect other people with different preferences to produce or support the shows you like on your behalf.
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bhl88



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 255
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:58 pm Reply with quote
Akira was right. Except it's the 30th Olympics, not the 32nd.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6248
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:43 pm Reply with quote
OK from reading the article and several pages of comments on this thread, I can agree on this:

-Censorship: unacceptable!!! The LDP should be using and globalizing anime and manga to help give Japan attention, it can increase hype for the olympic and Japan itself. They shouldn't be censoring little kids in anime, I might not like the moe and ecchi trend because they're getting oversaturated and not a lot of innovation, but censoring is not the answer to that.

-Cool Japan: OK, I don't like how Configspace said that Japan should not get involved with this yet Cool Japan can help the country and it's economy. Local market is not enough to help anime and manga, and other pop content. An interesting article I read has said that Japan has lost it's cool factor. Look what happen when Japan didn't take the Cool Japan seriously, South Korea took over the Asian pop culture highlight with K-pop and K-dramas. Now some of you are probably wondering why are more people are going to South Korea then Japan. Japan can do more then just exporting and globalzing anime and manga, I don't see a lot of J-dramas being export outside of Japan and Asia. After K-dramas got popular outside of Asia; Taiwan, Mainland China, and Singapore have already subtitled and exported their dramas outside of Asia. I don't see Japan doing this on the same level as other Asian dramas are getting. On Crunchyroll, Viki, and Dramafever, I can find less then 20 J-dramas total (2 on Dramafever, 9 on Crunchyroll, and maybe 6 or 7 on Viki). So Japan and LDP should be asking J-dramas companies to start subtitling and exporting J-dramas outside of Asia. Hopefully, Rakuten acquistion of Viki could lead to more J-dramas appearing on streaming sites for global audiences because anime and manga are not enough, J-dramas can also show real Japanese culture. I think J-dramas are better at showing J-culture then anime and manga. I mean how do you think people got to know Korean culture and history (before K-dramas, a lot of people didn't study Korean history), K-dramas, of course!!! How do you think people are going to learn about Chinese traditional culture, Taiwanese and Chinese dramas. Now if we can get more J-dramas on streaming sites, that would be great and people can learn more about Japan from watching not only anime and manga, but also J-dramas. I do see Toei is planning to stream Tokusatsu outside of Japan, so that is a step in the right direction.


Overall, I notice for the last few years Japan has been catering anime (usually moe and ecchi) for the local audiences, and not for global audiences. So I think Japan should make use of their winning olympic bid to maybe plan and make anime for global audiences. That would be not only beneficial for Japan and it's economy but also to help bring re-new global interest on anime and manga.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15279
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:55 pm Reply with quote
Parse:
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They didn't take over that market, it was designed specifically with them in mind from the outset.


So you're saying the moetaku didn't take over the market, even though that's generally what is being produced and sold nowadays.

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As it happens, they've supported this system so well that it's grown exponentially while the more mainstream daytime anime has not.


They supported the system, because they're the essential element of the corporate circle jerk.

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It's people like you who are the envious outsiders longing to forcibly take over what others built if you could.


No, casual anime fans just want to watch something which actually has something to do with anime again, instead of just being about otaku wish-fulfillment fantasies.

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If there truly were this massive, lucrative market for more of the things you like, then it would be insane for these companies to keep making quite a few otaku-oriented shows that sell less than or just barely 3,000 copies per volume,


It is insane, but the middle-men don't care. Why? Because they can make a quick buck marking up mediocre concepts which they whipped up in a day, and which don't take a lot of effort to animate, so they get all the profit, and screw the artists. It's basically the anime answer to a NIKE sweatshop.

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instead of ones that could easily sell tens of thousands of discs per volume.


Yes, but that would require long-term planning, and they don't care about that.

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The reason why original projects have such a hard time being greenlit isn't fear of inciting some sort of otaku jihad, it's simply because most of them have nothing to promote in order to generate revenue. The party pitching such a project either has to be someone like a superstar director whose track record indicates a very good chance they could launch a hit multimedia franchise, something like a business or government that is willing and able provide much of the funding itself, or similarly, somebody who's already secured enough crowdfunding to pay for it outright.


Ok, so if it's about profitability, then Kaze Tachinu is probably more successful than any of the recent otaku wank-fests produced in the last five years. Yes, it has the Miyazaki and Ghibli brand as selling points, but as an original-non-kiddie-concept, it was a still a risk. So, obviously, there's a disconnect between what the general anime public wants, and what it's forced to deal with, because the otaku are calling the shots.

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Adaptations are easy because they already have a well-established publisher who wants to advertise their manga or light novels, they know the approximate size of the existing audience and whether it can at least offset the production costs by buying discs, and they already have longstanding business relationships with potential additional investors, such as record companies who can use it to promote their music.


You're basically supporting my argument that the industry has intentionally colluded to shut out original content.

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If some nobody comes around who can't promise anything more than "we might sell some discs with this," of course companies aren't just going to hand them money. You might want to believe otherwise, but you probably would not risk that amount of money under those circumstances if you had it.


But they'll hand their money to an anime about dog abuse which is ok, because it's a comedy.

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Have you ever heard of Straight Title Robot Anime? It was made using MikuMikuDance, which is free software. If you put together a team of like-minded people, you all could sacrifice a portion of the time otherwise spent on posting rants in order to produce more of the kind of content you'd like to see made.


You're basically advocating the perpetuation of the whole cut-and-paste thing. Except that now, you don't even have to have any animation experience or drive, you just let software come up with your "ideas" for you.

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Just as you have no obligation to support ecchi harem comedies or other shows you don't like, you can't expect other people with different preferences to produce or support the shows you like on your behalf.


That's true, but then the otaku don't have any right to complain about someone else forcing his/her taste on the market, either.
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