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ANNCast - Viewers Like You: We Love the 90s


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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:20 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:


I really disagree; Unicorn is an ideal introduction to Gundam and to mecha in general. All of this stuff you are mentioning doesn't actually matter. Yes, that earlier content offers some context. But it's enough for the viewer to know what he or she needs to know for the present story to work, and that's what happens with Unicorn. The first episode supplies everything necessary about the big issues and the context of the setting. One does not need that earlier content to understand and appreciate what is happening in the present and how these returning characters relate to the hero, Banagher. It matters about as much as Star Trek does to Star Trek: TNG where hardcore fans get extra mileage out of some episodes, but anyone can be entertained. The fact that there's extra treats for fandom in a show doesn't render material "inaccessible" by any stretch of the imagination.


But here's the thing can you honestly claim that Gundam Unicorn is as popular as Gundam Seed on the internet? Looking around outside of Zac the people who are singing it's praises are people who where already fans of U.C Gundam. I just don't see all these new gundam fans trying to debate about how Zeon totally would have won the One Year War if certain things had changed,

I am just skeptical because I have heard this narrative for 10 years, that U.C Gundam is going to return and all of a sudden Gundam is going to be as huge as it was during Gundam Wing. I just don't see it as being as huge as Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood let alone the original FMA.


Last edited by Charred Knight on Fri May 27, 2011 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Botan24



Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 684
Location: Northern Michigan
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:28 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, Justin was back on this one (twice)! Am I the only one who misses him and Zac discussing anime at the beginning of each podcast? I know they don't do it so much now. Zac seems to be bringing on guests that he can do the same thing with (the guys from Colony Drop for example). But, I miss their (fairly) intelligent exchange of opinions. I like listening to people discuss, even if all I do is scoff at their opinions. It makes for good times, which is why I really enjoyed this one. Zac, Justin, and Mike all shooting the shit about "anime that time forgot" made for fun listening. And, I guess I enjoyed everyone else too. Wink

One side note, I am totally stalling on watching FMA: Brotherhood. I have the series saved on my queue on Netflix, but...sigh, I just can't bring myself to watch it. I'm not sure if it's because I loved the "original" so much, that I'm afraid of how different this story is going to be? Can't say, so I keep stalling.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:00 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:


But here's the thing can you honestly claim that Gundam Unicorn is having as big effect as Gundam Seed on the internet?

Quote:
Looking around outside of Zac the people who are singing it's praises are people who where already fans of U.C Gundam.


1. I neither know nor care whether this is the case.
2. Not so for assorted forum posters here and there and not for Erin Finnegan when she talked about it on Shelf Life on this website. Not to mention that Unicorn is still being made and is not even on DVD yet while Seed is years old. It's a fool's game to compare sales and fan reception to them at this stage.

Quote:
I just don't see it as being as huge as Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood let alone the original FMA.


Okay. It doesn't need to be to qualify as something more than a Gundam fan-only anime.

Quote:

I am just skeptical because I have heard this narrative for 10 years, that U.C Gundam is going to return and all of a sudden Gundam is going to be as huge as it was during Gundam Wing.


Well, okay. I haven't said that. Unicorn will undoubtedly generate some interest but it's certainly not going to elevate the old shows to such heights. The way forward continues to be titles that can stand on their own and execute a well-told, great story for today's audience. Unicorn does.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:40 pm Reply with quote
I apologize if it seemed like I was saying everything was about things you said. In fact I was mostly responding to what Brian Hanson was talking about and took it out on you.

No you have never stated that Gundam Unicorn is the second coming, and I never meant to imply that. It's just that for the past decade Gundam has been fan-only anime (at least in America), and hasn't had a breakout hit.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:57 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
In fact I was mostly responding to what Brian Hanson was talking about and took it out on you.


I don't think there's much daylight between his opinion of Unicorn and mine. The podcast even touched on what a mistake it was to drop the original Gundam on America immediately after the success of Wing.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:22 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:
In fact I was mostly responding to what Brian Hanson was talking about and took it out on you.


I don't think there's much daylight between his opinion of Unicorn and mine. The podcast even touched on what a mistake it was to drop the original Gundam on America immediately after the success of Wing.


Brian Hanson also condemned the releasing of Gundam Seed accusing it of being depressing compared to Universal Century. I have a suspicion that Brian Hanson would condemn the releasing of any of the A.U series.

My view is that in 2001 there really wasn't much that Bandai could do. Out of the Gundam series released around Wing's time, V Gundam preformed poorly in Japan and wasn't appropriate for Toonami, G Gundam and Turn A Gundam are completely different from other Gundam series, and Gundam X was cancelled in Japan. I can't imagine the Gundam series made in the 80's would be much more successful than MSG. That leaves releasing the 08th MS team which is a sidestory to MSG.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:36 am Reply with quote
That question about anime fans who were introduced in the mid-late 90's was really interesting to me. I think it may have a bigger impact on geek culture than Zac realizes. I wouldn't be surprised if the greater "geek" or "nerd" culture isn't effected by this in some way. This may not speak for everyone, but at my local college the geeks sort-of all hang out together, and while some of them are anime fans, even the ones that aren't have fond memories of shows like Outlaw Star and Dragon Ball Z. If there are others within the community of nerdom with similar experiences it could lead to a whole generation of people who are, not only, more open to things like anime, but creatively influenced by it. It would be real interesting to see where this goes 10-15 years from now.
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:20 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:

My view is that in 2001 there really wasn't much that Bandai could do. Out of the Gundam series released around Wing's time, V Gundam preformed poorly in Japan and wasn't appropriate for Toonami, G Gundam and Turn A Gundam are completely different from other Gundam series, and Gundam X was cancelled in Japan. I can't imagine the Gundam series made in the 80's would be much more successful than MSG. That leaves releasing the 08th MS team which is a sidestory to MSG.


The major problem as to why Bandai fumbled the ball so much when it came to Gundam is OPINIONS AHOY:

When it comes to Gundam in Japan, all Bandai has to do is announce a new show or product line, and before the show is even shown, fanboys are ready and willing to throw down their money for model kits and action figures. So they really don't have to really advertise or promote Gundam, its had a 30 year history as a merchandising powerhouse there. Now, when Wing becomes super hot in America they just decided that, like in Japan, EVERYTHING Gundam is popular, so they go for the old 1979 Gundam TV show for airing. Not that First is a bad show by any stretch, but for the kids that are watching Goku and Heero beamspam everybody in existance and loving it, having an almost 20 year old show at the time focusing on a teenagers angst while piloting a robot death machine isn't really going to cut it.

Now, as to what Bandai should have done, I can only armchair quarterback so much, but G Gundam should have been prepped and ready to go first so it could latch onto Dragonball popularity. If nothing else, this would have spared the young fans First Gundam, and probably not have kiled the franchise. Meanwhile, prep 0083 and 08th MS Team for release to the older fans, that might have gone beyond the "beamspam is cool!" crowd, and release the older stuff on the market without a TV deal. Unlike the AU shows, Gundam does deal with war, which would probably be a hard sell in the US anyways.

Now, when SEED arrives, it could comfortably be dropped in the Toonami timeslot and would actually be given a chance to succeed without the stigma of First on its back. Maybe it would succeed, maybe not. But I firmly think that SEED, SEED D and even 00 could have gone on to great things on TV at a decent timeslot if First Gundam had been kindly left behind during the boom. But then again, its just my opinion.[/i]
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:00 pm Reply with quote
FaytLein wrote:
Charred Knight wrote:

My view is that in 2001 there really wasn't much that Bandai could do. Out of the Gundam series released around Wing's time, V Gundam preformed poorly in Japan and wasn't appropriate for Toonami, G Gundam and Turn A Gundam are completely different from other Gundam series, and Gundam X was cancelled in Japan. I can't imagine the Gundam series made in the 80's would be much more successful than MSG. That leaves releasing the 08th MS team which is a sidestory to MSG.


The major problem as to why Bandai fumbled the ball so much when it came to Gundam is OPINIONS AHOY:

When it comes to Gundam in Japan, all Bandai has to do is announce a new show or product line, and before the show is even shown, fanboys are ready and willing to throw down their money for model kits and action figures. So they really don't have to really advertise or promote Gundam, its had a 30 year history as a merchandising powerhouse there. Now, when Wing becomes super hot in America they just decided that, like in Japan, EVERYTHING Gundam is popular, so they go for the old 1979 Gundam TV show for airing. Not that First is a bad show by any stretch, but for the kids that are watching Goku and Heero beamspam everybody in existance and loving it, having an almost 20 year old show at the time focusing on a teenagers angst while piloting a robot death machine isn't really going to cut it.

Now, as to what Bandai should have done, I can only armchair quarterback so much, but G Gundam should have been prepped and ready to go first so it could latch onto Dragonball popularity. If nothing else, this would have spared the young fans First Gundam, and probably not have kiled the franchise. Meanwhile, prep 0083 and 08th MS Team for release to the older fans, that might have gone beyond the "beamspam is cool!" crowd, and release the older stuff on the market without a TV deal. Unlike the AU shows, Gundam does deal with war, which would probably be a hard sell in the US anyways.

Now, when SEED arrives, it could comfortably be dropped in the Toonami timeslot and would actually be given a chance to succeed without the stigma of First on its back. Maybe it would succeed, maybe not. But I firmly think that SEED, SEED D and even 00 could have gone on to great things on TV at a decent timeslot if First Gundam had been kindly left behind during the boom. But then again, its just my opinion.[/i]


but here's the thing the stigma of Mobile Suit Gundam should be gone, it aired 8 years ago. The average person who watched anime in 2002 have gone off to other thing. The only people left from that era are the U.C fans and a small number of Gundam fans. That means that each new Gundam is on its own to find new fans, and it simply isn't happening, or at least they're not buying in large numbers.

G Gundam is not only my favorite Gundam but one of my favorite anime period. Yasuhiro Imagawa is by far my favorite director, but it's just so weird that I don't see it succeeding even if you aired it right after Gundam Wing. It's a super robot show, and outside of Gurren Lagann, Super Robot shows have failed miserably in the past 10 years.

I think Seed was a victim of being in a transition period where anime censorship on Toonami was increasing, and it would have been much more well received uncensored on Adult Swim.

I don't buy the idea that U.C Gundam is anymore mature than the A.U series. It's certainly more cynical but that doesn't make it anymore mature.


Last edited by Charred Knight on Sat May 28, 2011 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:29 pm Reply with quote
SEED also aired after Toonami switched to Saturday nights. You aren't going to get as many kids watching at 10:30pm as you are right after school gets out, and there's the matter of weekly vs. daily airings.
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:

but here's the thing the stigma of Mobile Suit Gundam should be gone, it aired 8 years ago. The average person who watched anime in 2002 have gone off to other thing. The only people left from that era are the U.C fans and a small number of Gundam fans. That means that Gundam is on its own to find new fans, and it simply isn't happening, or at least they're not buying in large numbers.


But thats kind of my point. Gundam Wing was, in its heyday, a VERY important anime show for the growing anime fanbase. Wing showing on Midnight Run directly led to anime being shown at late hours, which ultimately gave birth to Adult Swim. So they had a huge fanbase for Gundam, and dropped the ball with First. That drove fans away, and probably drove them to DBZ and Dragonball. If only Gundam had been treated a little better, it wouldn't be just us few UC nutcases and the odd fan, it could still have been relevant. I don't believe G Gundam was quite as popular as Wing, but Toonami did do about three complete airings of the show, so it had to have had some fans. So if we could have not even bothered with First, the fans that left might still have stuck around.

Quote:
G Gundam is not only my favorite Gundam but one of my favorite anime period. Yasuhiro Imagawa is by far my favorite director, but it's just so weird that I don't see it succeeding even if you aired it right after Gundam Wing. It's a super robot show, and outside of Gurren Lagann, Super Robot shows have failed miserably in the past 10 years.


The problem Super Robots have in America is a timing issue I think. Supers were pretty popular in the seventies, were replaced in the 80s with Real robots, and began a slow resurgance in the 90s and onward. Its not so much that super robot shows haven't caught on, but its that for a period of time, there wasn't a show that could be shown on TV without it being terribly dated (or being just plain awful). You either had stuff like Mazinger Z, Gaiking and Combattler to show, or you had the Brave Series or Eldoran Trilogy. And the 80s were the Supers time to shine in the US, but besides Voltron I'm not sure in Tranzor Z or Force Five did ganbusters or not.

Quote:
I think Seed was a victim of being in a transition period where anime censorship on Toonami was increasing, and it would have been much more well received uncensored on Adult Swim.

I don't buy the idea that U.C Gundam is anymore mature than the A.U series. It's certainly more cynical but that doesn't make it anymore mature.


Which might have happened if First hadn't caused a mass migration from the fanbase. When SEED came out yes it was edited. But it was also stuck at a timeslot that couldn't bring new fans in. Wing was edited as well (without disco guns I admit) but still was able to draw a crowd. But CN knew the last Gundam show that went down this road was a bust, and didn't show it any kind of affection. So Gundam kind of disappeared off everyone's radar, when it could have still been viable (disco guns and all!) if Bandai wasn't insistent on cramming a 20 year old show down our throats for the sake of merchandising.

Oh, I didn't mean to say somehow that UC = mature and AU = immature. But when you are trying to market a show to kids and young teens, having episode after episode devoted to having Amuro/Kamille/Judau angsting over girl troubles and tons of melodrama and political discourse tends to be a turnoff. Especially when you can have a more faster moving plot and tons of flashy lasers to keep you glued to the seat!
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:11 pm Reply with quote
Did Mobile Suit Gundam kill Gundam's momentum? Yes, but it's not killing Gundam's momentum now. The thing that's killing Gundam's momentum now is that no one is trying to create a new fanbase unless it's on their terms. If you watched Gundam 00 or Gundam Unicron and liked it, and you want to find more, you end up with a fanbase that is so obsessed with infighting that they can't give a person suggestions. Take what Brian Hanson did earlier, instead of explaining why he thought Gundam Seed sucked, he just said that it sucked so if your new to Gundam and listened to this podcast are you ever going to give Gundam Seed a chance? No, so a person who might have watched it and liked it and wanted to watch more isn't going to give it a chance, and your'e left with anime that's over a decade and a half old. You can't tell a person that liked Gundam Unicorn to watch a bunch of anime from the 80's and expect to get a vibrant fanbase.

A couple of Super Robot shows that where made in the last decade where released like Gravion, Godannar, Heroic Age, and Aquarion and none of them caught on.
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Nayu



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:45 pm Reply with quote
Gravion was fun tho. Very Happy

Seriously, how can you not love a super robot pilotted by maids? Very Happy
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:46 pm Reply with quote
Nothin' drives a thread like Gundam chat.

Charred Knight wrote:
Gundam Unicron


Now that would be an interesting show.
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FaytLein



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:46 pm Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:
Did Mobile Suit Gundam kill Gundam's momentum? Yes, but it's not killing Gundam's momentum now. The thing that's killing Gundam's momentum now is that no one is trying to create a new fanbase unless it's on their terms. If you watched Gundam 00 or Gundam Unicron and liked it, and you want to find more, you end up with a fanbase that is so obsessed with infighting that they can't give a person suggestions. Take what Brian Hanson did earlier, instead of explaining why he thought Gundam Seed sucked, he just said that it sucked so if your new to Gundam and listened to this podcast are you ever going to give Gundam Seed a chance? No, so a person who might have watched it and liked it and wanted to watch more isn't going to give it a chance, and your'e left with anime that's over a decade and a half old. You can't tell a person that liked Gundam Unicorn to watch a bunch of anime from the 80's and expect to get a vibrant fanbase.

A couple of Super Robot shows that where made in the last decade where released like Gravion, Godannar, Heroic Age, and Aquarion and none of them caught on.


But you could build on a fanbase that still exists. First Gundam was a show that, for all its faults, failed to help keep Gundam alive in the eyes of the fans. The newer shows don't have a guarantee to succeed, but since a lot of fans dropped Gundam after being bored with First, there was no momentum to treat any shows after the fact as a possible success.

Ah, the eternal rivalry between AU and UC. Sadly, since mecha fandom at the point around Wing's release was mainly old school fans, that sat through tons and tons of 70s-80s anime, fandom being what it is, lead to inevitable battles. It still goes on today, and isn't even limited to Gundam. TTGL has many similar attractors and detractors arguing over it, with newer fans intrigued by a show, and die hard old schoolers have resort to acting like jerks in order to keep their precious mecha "pure".

Gundam is perhaps one of the most impossible franchises to enjoy, you either have aged product that isn't a draw to modern crowds, or a very unwelcoming fanbase that ostracizes you for liking newer stuff. Its a lot of work to just enjoy some of the best things in life: watching robots blow things up with lasers.

While I agree that Gravion et al. probably aren't massive draws, they apparently were good enough sellers, just not moe and fanservice show levels. I recall Lance from Funi saying that robot stuff does sell for Funi, it might not just be blazingly fast sellers. I'd be pretty surprised if Godannar and Gravion weren't at least good sellers, maids and boobs everywhere seem to be a pretty popular formula for the US.
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