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DKL
 Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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Awesome, discussion... uhh... I came up with a really really really long analysis of the series a while back (it was 70 pages long) and posted it around here... but I can actually simplify it! (hopefully)
First, the original thread (No spoiler tags): CLICK! THOUGH, I changed my mind about stuff here and there (because I was actually figuring it out as I typed), so it's just better if I explain it here (using new content) Uh... okay. Oops... better post this first though because the thread might get locked (it's best that we don't use the other one for discussion given that it's too... uhh... has a lot of stuff in it... you can use it as reference though). Gimme an hour and I'll have a summary lined up. |
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DKL
Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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Okey-dokey… doing this from memory, but I don’t think it’ll turn out too bad.
First of all, I think the thing in the ending is the point of focus here… What Johan was doing was essentially showing Tenma something and Johan also asked him a question… it went something along the lines of: “Did my mother try to save me or was it that she mistook me for my sister?” The thing is… took me forever to realize this… it’s actually a rhetorical question. Simply put: Anna (which is actually the name of the mother of the twins) wanted to use Johan to kill that Bonaparta dude. What happened here is that Johan didn’t want to believe that he was the one his mother wanted to let go of (which he probably predicted using simple deduction… this is a person who predicted how the world would end, so of course he knows the answer to the above question), so Johan essentially went on a long journey and took some measures to convince himself that he wasn’t the one who his mother wanted to let go of during that moment back at three frogs… The problem is… no matter how Johan looked at it, it would seem that it only lead to one answer (that Anna wanted to totally let go of him)… so, how to erase the truth? Simple… convince yourself that you don’t have a name. Back at three frogs, the reason why Anna had the twins dress up the same was to evade detection by convincing people that she only had one kid (Bonaparta’s crew was looking for a lady with TWO kids, so this makes sense). When Bonaparta finally found them, he was actually planning to set the family free, but he had to eliminate everyone connected to the experiment (although, he did let Capek go before the mansion incident… maybe because they were close?), so Bonaparta came up with a plan (the rose mansion massacre). When he showed up at three frogs that day, he told Anna that he was going to take one of the twins for some kind of “experiment.” Here’s the thing… if you pay attention, notice that Anna initially didn’t want to let EITHER of the twins go (she told Capek to get lost), but when she saw Bonaparta’s face again, something took a hold of her and she just HAD to kill that man. What better way to kill a monster than to use a monster? The problem here is that Anna didn’t want Johan to catch onto her intentions. So, instead of calling out the name of the twin she wanted to send (Johan), she would just play the odds… problem though is if she makes a mistake and sends Nina. In the end, she sort of dropped the ball when she hesitated, which in itself asserted the fact that she wanted to send a SPECIFIC twin... now… given all that has happened in the series… who do you think that is? This essentially works under the assumption that Johan has always been a Monster; he’s a Monster that should’ve never been born (like in those old stories… err… that I don’t know about). Going back… Johan didn’t want to acknowledge the fact that during that one moment of desperation, his own mother saw him as a monster that could be used to vanquish another monster (Bonaparta). So, Johan started modifying the truth and convinced himself that he was “created;” this was done by having Nina tell him about the rose mansion experience and taking it in as his own. If he was “created” and if he didn’t have a name, then the answer that Johan was running away from essentially didn’t exist. (Think that… uh… if the twins didn’t have a name, then the only reason why Anna didn’t call out someone’s name back then was because she COULDN’T call out someone’s name, thus making the choice completely ambiguous… but… if the twins have a name *which they do*, then the only reason why Anna didn’t use those names was because she was hiding something… that said, who do you think she was hiding from?) The problem here though is that Kinderheim sort of screwed Johan up and eventually lead back to the answer that he was evading all these years… Ironically, Tenma, the person who saved his life, was essentially the person who made Johan’s worse nightmare come true when he told Johan that he had a real name (that nightmare being that he was a true monster *which, at this point, Johan was already aware of* and that the one Anna was going to let go of was indeed Johan). Tenma must’ve also known the answer to Johan’s question, which is why he left without telling Johan his real name even though he came all the way back from France to do so. Yeah… that’s a little abstract, but that’s kinda what I got right now… it might change someday, but for now, it’s what I essentially came out with after 2 months of detective work. Okay… totally… yeah… uhh… feel free to ask questions or poke holes though, given that this is the only way we move to better conclusions. |
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Falco135 1/2
Posts: 4 |
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Yeesh! You've spent some time on this!
Thanks for the in depth thread you first posted and thank you very much for the condensed version you just posted. Things finally make sense. Originally, I thought that the ending showed Johan (which is actually catching on as a popular baby name these days) to be a girl originally and the "experiment" was a sex change operation. Yeah, thanks for saving me from that conclusion. My impressions on the show is basically that it started out very promising and at one point the author/director/main person in charge had Tenma do something that was completely out of character for someone in his situation. Around Ep. 20 Tenma finds Johan at a library or something and is about to shoot him with a sniper's rifle. Despite having his life wrecked by Johan and having thrown everything away in pursuit of him, and having realized that Johan must be killed in order to be stopped, Tenma hesitates. Bad writing. No way that character would do that. What should have happened is that Tenma should have killed Johan then and there. THEN the story could have really opened up with a kind of "monster awakening" - all the kids that were experimented upon (now that they're grown) could then suddenly snap and become monsters themselves - something the experimenters could have 'programmed' into them through hypnosis or something. Johan could have been the leader and there could be another 19 kids in the experiment or class or whatever you want to call it. It could be such that once one of them is offed, another becomes the 'monster' and continues on carrying out the latent will of the political party that experimented/programmed them. That would have made a good series (and now that I think about it, it sounds strikingly similar to the "Stand-Alone Complex" series of Production I.G.'s Ghost in the Shell franchise that was recently aired on Cartoon Network). Instead I was dismayed to see the series take a dull turn and last a grueling 74 episodes. It eventually got better towards the end. I decided to follow it through due to the availability of torrents (of which I'm thankful for - how else can I preview if an Anime is worth buying on DVD?). Incidently, anyone know why 74 episodes? Doesn't really fit any kind of TV scheduling skeem. It usually works in 13-26-52 episode increments. Then again, I see that Eureka 7 is 50 episodes instead of 52 (must resist watching fan subs of future episodes and stick to what's aired on the tube  ).
At any rate, thanks again for explaining things so well and showing someone like myself that there's more to Monster than meets the eye. Even if it took an unrealistic turn (IMO) 
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Deltakiral
 Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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I disagree. That scene (And the entire series) makes perfect sense. Even in our own lives we make decision that we know are wrong, we question what the correct path is. Tenma is a person who values life, and that is why he could never pull the trigger to murder. Note there is a difference between killing someone and saving someone, such as when Tenma has to use his gun to save Eva. Such even thought Tenma knows that the world will be better off if he kills Johan in the Library he's unable to do it, life has more value to Tenma then any of Johan's evils. Look at the time when Tenma could of killed Johan in the park he makes excuses as to why he can't kill Johan now, it's simple Tenma doesn't have it in him. In the end after everything that Tenma lost because of Johan he still agrees to save his life. The story is about life and how precious it is, and of course at what point do we reach that darkest moment in our life, and can we become Monster's........
What!!!! Naoki Urasawa story is by far one of the most amazing stories ever told. Everything in story is well thought out and makes senses when you think about it.
Yes I realize that the number of episodes doesn't make any sense. But here the deal the anime is faithful to the manga to the last I and T. So that is the reason as to why the Anime goes on for that many episodes, the manga is 18 volumes and to quote encyclopedia.
God I love this series so much...... Till next time, Delta Kiral P.S. SOMEONE LICENSE THIS SHOW PLEASE! |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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I really loved this series personally, everything is top notch, story, animation, characters, music, etc. Monster is probabally the only series I'd go 'round recomending to anybody even if they weren't into anime.
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DKL
Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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Delta:
Well... Tenma DID shoot Roberto... so that's not the most effective stance to take (but I'll go over it in a minute)
No... didn't seem very out of character to me. There’s a lot of factors. For starters, tons of people are just terrified of Johan, but not always for the most obvious reasons (for example… a big scary fire didn’t scare Schuwald *the old guy*, but looking into Johan’s eyes and listening to his words did… that’s pretty much how it went with Tenma). The thing that was surprising about Johan (unlike Roberto) was that he (Johan) willfully asked Tenma to shoot him (to Johan, this was just a game… that game that he taught those kids, actually). Tenma was probably contemplating all this crap in his head while it went on. Confused (and completely floored by Johan’s dominating presence), Tenma hesitated to make a decision only to be interrupted when Nina jumps in and stops him (since she thinks that she should be the one to kill Johan). Uh… kinda like how a cobra can freeze its prey when they look into each other’s eyes… like, you’re scared, or something. Talking about the eyes… this is actually the thing in the end! It was pretty cool: through Johan’s eyes, Tenma was taken to another world (symbolically). It might seem simple, but it isn’t. You can talk about killing the monster, but when he’s right in front of you, you become overwhelmed after contemplating the fact that you’re about to remove something from this world that did all these god-forsaken things. Kinda like… you get excited when you’re about to win something, but you kinda drop the ball when you contemplate it too far in advanced (it’s SOMETHING like that). If this has never happened to you… then, yeah, you could pretty much find the above unbelievable. Uhh… basic “human nature” crap. (Though, I really have to say… when Johan works his magic, it comes off as far more believable than most other stuff I’ve seen… not only that, it’s really cool and polished) ========== The interesting thing about Tenma is that Johan technically didn't screw his life up; because the 3 people at the hospital were killed back then, Tenma was able to move up in the world and follow his principles... only to learn that those principles were built on a lie (Johan killed them because Tenma said that people like them should be dead). Johan just granted Tenma's wish, so, in a way, it’s not really all on Johan. ============== As for why 74 episodes? Probably because Masao Maruyama or whoever wanted to completely adapt all 18 volumes of the manga... can't really think of any other shows that have done something like this (but, I really think that the anime is better than the manga… Urasawa is great, but damn). The ratio is something like: 4 episodes = 1 volume of the manga. Or something. ============
I’m not exactly sure how this could work given that Johan got everyone at Kinderheim to kill each other (with the exception of 2 people). And that most of the people that were released from the place before Johan came in, at best, couldn’t adjust to a regular kind of life (the people that were worse off turned into psychos that no one, but Johan, could take control of). In fact, no one ever really got “control” of Johan; he was the one who was always in control. As for the experimenters… well, they’re pretty much all over the place since the Berlin Wall collapsed… history didn’t exactly work in their favor (now that the wall came down, all that crap they were doing is out in the open). If people did start “awakening,” they’d essentially be working towards nothing (just… well, random killing and chaos or something that wouldn’t benefit anyone) … or, to the very least, the kids would get revenge on the people that screwed around with them (like what Grimmer was talking about). EDIT: ANYWAY... if there was some kinda plot, Johan would've broken away from it (well, that and History took place). BUT... actually... How different is what you described from what he was already doing? (No… really? Other than the power structure *where Johan is a pawn... wait, you were moving towards this, right?*... fact is, Johan manipulated a ton of people to do nefarious things… sure, not ALL of them were Kinderheim “graduates,” but your description is essentially what he’s been doing for a decade in the series) What I mean is: Getting a ton of people to work towards your own goal. The coolest thing about all this is that it WASN'T done on hypnosis... it was all manipulation (which is infinitely more impressive, if you ask me)[/spoiler] ========= As for the Ghost in the Shell thing… which one are we talking about? The first season or the second season? |
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Deltakiral
Posts: 3338 Location: Glendora, CA (Avatar Hei from Darker than BLACK) |
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Ahh DKL your ability to find even the smallest of detail is amazing...that said lets get into it
My folks have a saying for this, it's easy to say you want to make a deal with devil it's another thing to sign the contract in your blood.
spoiler[I always felt that Johan was giving himself to Tenma, such Tenma saved Johan so therefore his (Johan) life is forever in Tenma hand. As such only Tenma can really kill him and only Tenma can save him from his fate. ]
spoiler[I know what you are saying that final scene with Tenma and Johan in the hospital bed, has always struck me as being so powerful. The eyes are the windows to the soul.....and much like Schuwald (whom I believe saw landscape at the end) who had the chance to peer throught Johan eyes Tenma got the chance to see Johan greatest fear/nightmare. ]
spoiler[Understandly (I guess in a strange way) Johan idolized Tenma as is hero. So when Tenma sat next to the boy and vented his anger the small child was only hoping to help Tenma. But still do you think that Johan knew what he was doing? Did he know that the death of the three doctors and the escape with his sister with his sister would lead down this path. Also DKL something that has bother me over the pass couple of month since the end of monster. Tenma only seems to be able to shoot only when he is danger, or someone else is in danger. But that final standoff between Johan and Tenma at the end there is a moment where it appears that Tenma was going to shoot Johan, and yet he couldn't. I always thought that the Drunk beat him to it, but Tenma has always pull the trigger to protect people. Hell Tenma shoot Roberto to save Schuwald, but yet I always wonder if Tenma could kill Johan? I thought that Tenma mindset was focus as he came to Johan for a final battle, but perhaps the Landscape was something that was too much for Tenma. ] You know what really sucks, even with all the studying and thinking about the Monster mentality.....we still don't have the complete story....I really want to read Another Monster, since it's suppose to dive into what makes a monster. Till next time, Delta Kiral |
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DKL
Posts: 1945 Location: California, USA |
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Woah… need to speed up my response time (in fact, my Kon thread hasn’t moved in like… forever).
Okay… responses… to Delta’s stuff.
spoiler[Yeah… that’s a neat way of looking at it, but I’m pretty sure the intention isn’t really to have Tenma KILL Johan (at first, anyway). He (Johan) always had this kinda arrogance to him as if he knew that Tenma would never have it in him to actually shoot (which is why Johan had to resort hostage tactics in the end… err… the part where he’s literally pushing Tenma over the edge by having him choose between shooting Johan or watching Wim get killed). The principle (of life-saving) also applied to general Wolfe, who was pretty much left alive just for the sake of seeing what Johan has seen (like… a “reward” for resurrecting the monster). The interesting thing about the landscape of the end is that it was associated with the Czech border, but it was actually a more physical manifestation of what Johan had SUPPOSEDLY seen when he was still living at three frogs (a world without names), but… uhh… going with my theories, he just made that crap up in his head (again, to convince himself that there was a possibility that he wasn’t the one Anna was going to let go of). That said, it was interesting to see how Johan made the choice of who was going to carry on this “reality” that he made up for himself. If anything, it made sense (if it’s some kind of “privilege” that only select people can see, then it must indeed exist… or something like that). THOUGH, Schuwald was an exception (Johan recently remembered it, so why not? It’ll be “fun”).]
spoiler[Actually, to some extent, Johan probably did know what he was doing (part of his manipulation crap). But I like to think that Johan does have a point (hence the “technically”)… I mean, the fact is, Tenma HAD those thoughts and Johan, at the time, probably understood the notion (kinda like how Johan understood that Taxi Driver guy when him and Nina lived with that guy for a while). How’d that go again? “People like that aren’t needed” and Johan agreed. I guess the ultimate point here is that Tenma fell into the trap of assuming that his principles were under the most rock-solid of circumstances only to realize later how frail they were later on (unlike Taxi dude who still thinks that Johan is right no matter how wrong he is, which was another kind of trap altogether). That said, I’m working under the assumption that Johan really intended to pay Tenma back for saving his life back then, but in a kind of twisted way (really twisted). Now that you mention it, getting Tenma riled up was probably part of a plan that was set in motion. This plan being to get him (Tenma) involved in all this so that he would eventually be able to see “the end of the world” (which Johan predicted after the Kinderheim massacre thing… yeah… Christoph *Johan’s apprentice* seems to know the story really well and even tells Martin about it). Yeah… thinking far far in advance is how to do things. Oh… notice how consistent the theme is even though the “landscape of the end” always comes up in different forms (after the kinderheim massacre… at the border… after rose mansion massacre… etc.).] That’s pretty good.
spoiler[Yeah… here's one way to think of it: “If I kill the monster, then what does that make me?” There are really a lot of factors here though. I actually thought that it was a good idea to set up Wim’s dad as the person who eventually shoots Johan in the end given that he probably doesn’t have the same familiarity that Nina or Tenma has (hence their constant hesitation). Wim’s dad saw a monster (a nine-headed dragon, was it?), so he shot at it. The difference between him and everyone else was that he DIDN’T have all that crap going on in his head, which made sense. It was simply: this is the thing that ravaged this town, so it has to disappear; it’s not like he actually talked to Johan or anything, so how can Johan’s “magic” actually work? (Though, it’s still neat that Wim’s dad saw that monster thingy… this image was probably a combination between the fact that Johan was holding his kid at gun-point and the fact that Johan was vaguely smiling at the experience *at least… I think that’s how it went*… anywho, it’s something really subtle like that) Yeah… it’s abstract (as always), but really makes sense when you put the stuff together. THOUGH, I really do think that Tenma really was about to shoot, but like you said, Wim’s dad beat him to it… man… it was really close, if you ask me. He was totally gonna shoot. I mean… he didn’t really have a choice here.] ===== Okay, I'm off, WHOOOSH! |
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manifestation
Posts: 4 |
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Does anyone know if Johan has any supernatural powers? Major spoilers ahead.
spoiler[I find it strange how everyone Dr. Tenma encounters during his adventure is somehow related to Johan, as if Johan set things up so that they would meet. And Johan is able to find out the whereabouts of everyone related to him. For example, the guy who saves Dr. Tenma from the police turns out to be a guy attempting to assassinate Peter Capek. Or the cop who killed the teenager that was actually one of the 511 Kinderheim kids. Pretty much everyone in the story had something to do with Johan in the past, either directly or indirectly. There are MANY more examples that I cant think of right now. Second, Johan is able to manipulate random people he's never met like that one serial killer who was being interrogated. He even gets the serial killer to kill by writing the persons name in sand. he's able to determine two cops are corrupt and get them to kill Annas foster parents. And again, there are many more examples. Thirdly, he's able to get Roberto into any position he needs him to be in. For example, at one point, Roberto is Evas bar friend. Then he becomes a body guard for the corrupt cop who was somehow related to Johan. Then he becomes a lawyer for Tenma. he's just constantly popping up as random people and youre left wondering what Roberto might end up being next. And lastly, Johan survives two shots to the head. One when he's a kid and the second at the end. No normal human being would be able to survive twice and not suffer brain damage. In fact, Johan turns out to be a genius. People refer to him as the devil and seem to be terrified of his very existence.] I refuse to accept this as typical anime/fiction madness since the series tries to be so serious. Is there any explanation for all this randomness? And we have no idea what happened at 511 Kinderheim. |
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wm4
Posts: 42 |
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I think you have only one mis-understanding. Naoki Urasawa is not a great story writer like Ichirō Ōkouchi; Urasawa has been making craps like those for most of the times. You can't be serious when a typical sport lady like Miyuki Umino spoiler[winning Wimbledon], and Kenchi spoiler[finally getting a real robot to climb onto.] Urasawa has been doing serious researches on the character's careers, for which he should receive praises. For Johan, I think he has enough intelligence so he deserve the luck for his accomplishments (he did need some luck, didn't he?) He is not as clever as people used to think at the first glance. Despite, spoiler[the mother and Lina's epic failure to express their love does help a bit.] |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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First: Why is it so strange that people trying to track down individuals related to Kinderheim 511 would run into each other while doing so? Also, "everyone" in the story is connected to Johan because the story is about Johan. Plus, there are people that aren't connected to Johan, like the British couple on vacation, or the foreign doctor with the illegal practice, or the guy who trained Tenma how to shoot.
Second: Charisma. It's also part of why Johan is so terrifying: he's charming, suave, and likable. The Devil doesn't go around looking like some bright-red, horned, goat-hoofed monstrosity; he appears as a beautiful young man and tricks people into doing wicked things. Third: Again, Roberto's purpose was to harass Tenma and advance Johan's goals, and so he does that by intentionally insinuating himself into the lives of the people connected to them. Roberto has connections himself, so tracking down people who are making no effort to hide themselves is no difficult task. Lastly, Johan survives being shot in the head only because Tenma, who is perhaps the greatest neurosurgeon in the world, operates on him. As for no one in real-life surviving such a wound, haven't you ever of Phineas Gage? |
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manifestation
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1. Ok those are the only two examples I could think of who had nothing to do with Johan. It was much more than just everyone doing something related to Johan that made them all meet up with each other and Tenma. It was more like random people who either had very little or a lot to do with Johan in the past or present, who were doing completely irrelevant things at the time and were forced by some crazy incident with Roberto/Johan/Johans accomplice to go on a crazy out of the ordinary adventure to help Johan in fulfilling his plan. It was like a jigsaw puzzle that just pieced itself together at Johans will. 2. I knew that but it doesnt make sense how people were so terrified of him. The serial killers. The blind rich guy. The guy at the hospital. Some other people I cant think of. They were all terrified of him and fell under a spell. And what made the secret Czech police guys want Johan so badly? Why was he the perfect leader? They made Johan seem like the perfect tool to rule the world but were never told why and how became that perfect being. 3. Interesting. But he didn't get shot point blank in the forehead at like age 7 and again as an adult. I know some things can just pass as typical anime/fiction events. |
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manifestation
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Ok, how about this. How did Ana just happen to meet her two schoolmates Karl and Lotte who were related to Johan. Karls dad, Schuwald was the husband of a hooker who was a friend of Johans mom. Johan finds his way into the family as their advisor. Tenma somehow ends up at the library fire saving Schuwald from Johan. And how did Johan at such a young age even know/remember his moms hooker friend who moved across the wall never to be seen again. Its just all so coincidental. Like a jigsaw puzzle. Like Johan has a sixth sense allowing him to find anyone he wants. Or how Grimmer, a 511 kid coincidentally meets Tenma on a train and helps him escape and aids him in the Johan hunt. |
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ZenErik
 Posts: 392 Location: Boston |
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How many stories, especially ones this long, don't have any sort of coincidence?
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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The serial killers weren't afraid of him, they admired and revered him. Schuwald was terrified of Johan only after he reconnected with his son (and thus had a considerable change of heart) and then learned what exactly Johan's spontaneous change of plan involved. Prior to that he knew what Johan doing and didn't really care. The guy at the hospital, well he was terrified because he knew Johan was coming to kill him. The Czech police guys? spoiler[Were they the Neo-Nazis?] They complete misunderstood Johan's objectives, so using their rationale isn't completely accurate. That said, they wanted him as a leader because he would have been the perfect public face: attractive, intelligent, and eloquent.
So, because he only had one massive head injury, it's believable, but because Johan had two considerably smaller injuries (that bullet wasn't an inch and a quarter in diameter and nowhere near three and a half feet long), that's just too much? Also, wasn't Johan 10 the first time?
Didn't Lotte notice the striking resemblance between Johan and Anna, thus prompting her to bring it up? Tenma ends up at the library saving Schuwald because he tracked Johan there and was going to kill him. That's not a coincidence, that's a natural result of the plot. Regarding the hooker friend IIRC, spoiler[she was actually dead and it was another woman who rather conspicuously pretended to be her, connected to a wealthy, powerful man.] Again, it's easy to find people who aren't hiding, and Johan's goal was originally obtaining Schuwald's power, influence, and finances, making the coincidence more a genuine coincidence than a plot motivating one.
Because Grimmer is also looking for answers about 511, it's rather reasonable that he'd be looking in some of the same places as Tenma. That he bumps into Tenma once on the train before really joining up with him is a way to introduce the character briefly before fully integrating him into the story. |
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