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Kill la Kill (TV).


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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:36 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I'm curious as to what other people think. Would you say Kill la Kill is an action-comedy?

You know, it is strange but I might just have to look up what the description of comedy is.

Wikipedia wrote:
Satire and political satire use ironic comedy to portray persons or social institutions as ridiculous or corrupt, thus alienating their audience from the object of humor. Satire is a type of comedy. Parody subverts popular genres and forms, using certain ironic changes to critique those forms from within (though not necessarily in a condemning way). Screwball comedy derives its humor largely from bizarre, surprising (and improbable) situations or characters. Black comedy is defined by dark humor that makes light of so-called dark or evil elements in human nature. Similarly scatological humor, sexual humor, and race humor create comedy by violating social conventions or taboos in comic ways. A comedy of manners typically takes as its subject a particular part of society (usually upper class society) and uses humor to parody or satirize the behavior and mannerisms of its members. Romantic comedy is a popular genre that depicts burgeoning romance in humorous terms and focuses on the foibles of those who are falling in love.

Okay, how many of those can apply directly to Kill la Kill? Indeed the school was ridiculous and corrupt that it distanced the audience from it, so that is political satire, arguably the first thing in the series. Did subvert popular genres and forms using certain ironic changes? This was an action series where the main method of powers was through clothes, fashion and pulling off clothes was even mad a pretty big deal, you bet it is parody. I think Mako owned screwball comedy, and she was not alone in it either. Black humour, well there were a number rapey moments and other parts which were making light of dark or evil elements. I can't recall any scatological or race humour, but there was definitely some sexual humour, in fact I would say it was the defining part of Nudist Beach, violating the social conventions or taboos in comic ways was like its whole point, and was also in the Kamui.

It is almost like this series grabbed all types of comedy and hid them behind their action genre, so yes I consider it an action-comedy. Ironically I would say that making people laugh was not the whole point.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:46 pm Reply with quote
Making people laugh was absolutely not the whole point of Kill la Kill. Whetting our appetites for high-octane action, over-the-top visuals, stylish "cool" stuff, and excessive fan-service with lots of hot chicks doing stuff to each other (and overt yuri pairings)?? YES. That is what Kill la Kill is for. Comedy hour? No. Like I said, I do recognize that there have been many humorous moments in the show. This is just standard in this type of shounen action however.
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:08 am Reply with quote
Kill la Kill reminded me why I loved Project AKO. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it was a fun ride for me.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:22 am Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Making people laugh was absolutely not the whole point of Kill la Kill. Whetting our appetites for high-octane action, over-the-top visuals, stylish "cool" stuff, and excessive fan-service with lots of hot chicks doing stuff to each other (and overt yuri pairings)?? YES. That is what Kill la Kill is for. Comedy hour? No. Like I said, I do recognize that there have been many humorous moments in the show. This is just standard in this type of shounen action however.

And I kind of agree that making people laugh was not the point, but I can't but find there is something strange about its connection with "comedy". It is not just the fact it had comedic moments, but as I just quoted from the Wikipedia article on comedy, which is literally the second paragraph there, it practically odd that kill la kill fits so cleanly with its major themes.

In my opinion it exists in an almost half way point between being serious action, and a comedic subversion. From the beginning we see that the school is pretty much a laughably corrupt evil dictatorial institution, yet this somehow does not come across as just some joke, but as something quite serious. The same with Revoks, which despite the absurdity of being a clothing company bent on world domination, actually feels like a real threat rather than a joke. There is Mako who is pretty much a nonsensical screwball, but at the same time those times she acts like that are often her protecting Ryuko on something that makes total sense to her. And other people usually have a hard time trying to fight against her logic, a major point ended up being that the most crazy things can be what makes the most sense, kind of being screwball itself.

Mako was also known right out to deliver the Black Comedy evident by explaining her father has killed more people than he has saved, and worrying about her clothes or panties as she is about to get executed or dissected. Not to mention the whole thing with Senketsu getting onto Ryuko sounding like something quite dark when it is clothes, and I think Nui was also very Black Comedy too. And as I said about Nudist Beach really played into various sexual taboos, and did that whole light thing.

But as much as these themes were central the story, the point was rarely to make you laugh, no the point was strangely separate, much more action focussed. But was this a strait parody? No it felt strangely parody like, and mixed with them together, you can see some shout outs here. I think the series ended up being quite meta in what it was, a full action, turned comedic, but made full action.

I think also fits into the idea that Kill la Kill is actually a magical girl show, sounded ridiculous to me, but it actually has a huge amount of the elements. The link I did above about Shout outs mentions that a number of characters are expy's of Cutey Honey. There are some other things I mentioned in the thread I made about Magical Girls as a genre. But one realization is that we have one of the most important parts, transformation scenes and one of the key parts of the series, Sailor Uniforms, brings to mind the number one anime that showcased them, Sailor Moon, the centre of many modern Magical Girl anime.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:37 am Reply with quote
@ ChibiKangeroo - I don't think anybody would argue that comedy was the "whole point" of KlK, but it certainly was a major point. More so than a regular shonen show, I would say. In fact, I would say KlK was more of an affectionate parody of shonen shows than a straight-up version of one.

Again, there is no objective authority that a question like this can be put to, but of the two people who have responded so far to my question, both have agreed with my contention that comedy is one of the identifying genres of this show. That's obviously an incredibly small sampling, but I believe that would hold up in a larger sampling as well.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:52 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
@ ChibiKangeroo - I don't think anybody would argue that comedy was the "whole point" of KlK, but it certainly was a major point. More so than a regular shonen show, I would say. In fact, I would say KlK was more of an affectionate parody of shonen shows than a straight-up version of one.

Again, there is no objective authority that a question like this can be put to, but of the two people who have responded so far to my question, both have agreed with my contention that comedy is one of the identifying genres of this show. That's obviously an incredibly small sampling, but I believe that would hold up in a larger sampling as well.


Well, this is I think more the semantic argument rather than the main point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to argue about whether or not there are important comedic elements in KlK. As I mentioned before, there are important comedic elements in most current action shounen series - pretty much anything that's not all deadly serious like Attack on Titan. It might be better to take the semantics completely out and just get more to the point.

Group A: Bleach, FMA, Naruto, Soul Eater, One Piece, Gurren Lagan, etc...

Group B: Shin Chan, Sgt. Frog, Hetalia, Ouran High School Host Club

I think Kill la Kill is closer in general to Group A than it is to Group B. If you think it's closer to Group B, then fine. I personally think it is an obvious action shounen series similar to those in Group A.

Shows in Group A have well developed characters, a well developed over-arching plot, and general consistency in the plot. They of course execute that approach with different levels of proficiency over the course of the series, but that's the approach.

Shows in Group B don't really require development of character or plot. The episodes tend to be more self-contained, and focus on one specific theme for each episode. They focus on making you laugh about something, and then move on to the next subject/theme.

Again, the main point of my commentary is that I think Kill la Kill is clearly closer to Group A, but has done a particularly poor job in maintaining a consistent/well developed plot, and has not done well with developing most of its characters.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:44 am Reply with quote
Whereas for me, the question of whether KlK is "closer" to your Group A or Group B is irrelevant. To me, it's a hybrid: action-comedy. And because there was (in my view) a lot of emphasis on the comedy, I don't judge the action stuff to the same degree I would for a more serious show. For example, you cite Ryoko donning the Elite 4's Goku uniforms at the end as an "ass pull" that reflects negatively on the show. Because I put more primacy on the show's humour than the mechanics of the plot, I found that incident enjoyable and thematically fitting.

It all goes back to what I said a while back in this thread: this show is broadcasting on a frequency that you are not fully receiving. You are counting as negatives things that those of us who are more in tune with the show's intentions are seeing in a completely different light.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:25 am Reply with quote
Yeah I think you are looking a bit too shallowly at it ChibiKangaroo, there was more to this show than just being an over the top battle show. Although on the surface it had about the same amount of laughs as maybe Bleach, there is actually a huge difference between them. If I had to give an explanation, I would say it is intent, the intent that KlK was designed as very self aware and in many ways a parody (Parody subverts popular genres and forms, using certain ironic changes to critique those forms from within (though not necessarily in a condemning way).). At heart it is parodying shows like Bleach, yet does so in a way that is not actually condemning it, and thus almost hides itself that it is in fact one.

I do think that what Blood- is actually talking about might actually ask the question of what is comedy. Is comedy simply how much it makes the audience laugh? Or is Comedy the use of established story telling methods that we have established as common methods of comedy?
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:03 am Reply with quote
I wouldn't say that ChibiKangeroo is looking at KlK too "shallowly." Just the opposite, actually. I think she's given it some very considered thought and there are aspects I do agree with. Rather, I'd say she's looking at the show through a somewhat different prism than most, that's all.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:18 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Whereas for me, the question of whether KlK is "closer" to your Group A or Group B is irrelevant. To me, it's a hybrid: action-comedy. And because there was (in my view) a lot of emphasis on the comedy, I don't judge the action stuff to the same degree I would for a more serious show. For example, you cite Ryoko donning the Elite 4's Goku uniforms at the end as an "ass pull" that reflects negatively on the show. Because I put more primacy on the show's humour than the mechanics of the plot, I found that incident enjoyable and thematically fitting.

It all goes back to what I said a while back in this thread: this show is broadcasting on a frequency that you are not fully receiving. You are counting as negatives things that those of us who are more in tune with the show's intentions are seeing in a completely different light.


Well, if the frequency that Kill la Kill is broadcasting on is "nothing that happens or doesn't happen in Kill la Kill really matters, because Kill la Kill is on a whole different frequency than anything else and so can't be judged in any way, shape or form using norms that can be compared with anything before it," then yes, perhaps you are right. Perhaps, in that context, Kill la Kill is (as I said from the very outset) another FLCL type show that can never be seriously discussed in any kind of critical or intelligent fashion, because people will constantly assert that the show defies logic and explanation by design, and thus can never be adequately judged or criticized. All discussions about said show will end in circular logic type arguments of "well, it fails in those areas because it's SUPPOSED TO! Doesn't that blow your mind?" or "even though there is no real explanation for why X is good, X is good because it is good!"

If that's the case, maybe I should lower my rating for Kill la Kill. One FLCL is enough.

Oh yea, and in response to DuskyPredator, I would agree with Blood- that my outlook on KlK is more focused on seeking depth rather than looking for superficial elements. Maybe Blood- thinks I am seeking too much depth, but I think it is normal to look for some depth in a show like this when it comes to the issues I raised. For example, let's look at Ragyo. She was essentially Oberon from Sword Art Online, but with an actual plan for world domination. She shared his penchant for molesting girls, but where that seemed to be Oberon's only goal in life and the entirety of his evil plan, at least Ragyo had a plan for actual planetary domination. However, aside from that, she is essentially the same character as him - completely one dimensional. Is it so wrong for me to want a more deep villain than Oberon?

Same thing with Nui Harime. We know that she is an evil psycho who loves to cause violent mischief, but that's about it. We get a hint that she was created by Ragyo after the failures of her daughters, but that is never explored in any depth (and would have been an AWESOME side-plot). We also get a hint that she is somehow capable of a special type of fusion with the original life fiber, but again, not explored AT ALL. Instead, it is just used as an ass-pull at the end of the series. What a waste of a potentially amazing character. That's the type of stuff that I'm complaining of.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:43 am Reply with quote
But I'm not making that point either. My point is that there isn't much value in applying the norms of a serious action show to one that is an action-comedy hybrid. That doesn't mean "anything goes" but it also means you weight things differently, as I mentioned in my Ryouko - Elite 4 uniforms example.

It also means that, for example, there is less concern about the fact that Mako isn't a complex character with some amazing arc. She has a comedic function in KlK and fulfills it quite well. When you understand that KlK is an action-comedy, you don't go around, "geez, I really wish they'd developed Mako more" they way you might if comedy wasn't one of KlK's major genres.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:55 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
But I'm not making that point either. My point is that there isn't much value in applying the norms of a serious action show to one that is an action-comedy hybrid. That doesn't mean "anything goes" but it also means you weight things differently, as I mentioned in my Ryouko - Elite 4 uniforms example.

It also means that, for example, there is less concern about the fact that Mako isn't a complex character with some amazing arc. She has a comedic function in KlK and fulfills it quite well. When you understand that KlK is an action-comedy, you don't go around, "geez, I really wish they'd developed Mako more" they way you might if comedy wasn't one of KlK's major genres.


Well then perhaps you are really just confirming why I give Kill la Kill a "Very Good" rating rather than an "Excellent" or "Masterpiece." Because I am trying to figure out what the argument from your side is. Is your argument that I should give it Excellent or Masterpiece? My position has been that an action/adventure type show that doesn't properly develop the plot/characters can probably only get a Very Good rating from me, assuming everything else is high quality.

It seems you could then draw the conclusion that I don't believe such an "action-comedy" along the lines that you have defined it (i.e. somehow fundamentally different from the shounen shows I named above) can really ever get such a top rating from me. If that's the case, then I don't think we are really arguing over anything, particularly since you gave the show the same rating that I did. It seems like maybe you are more taking issue with my opinion about this "Kill la Kill" genre of shows that you have defined (again, a separate genre from the shows I identified in Group A), and really don't dispute my rating of this particular show.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:01 pm Reply with quote
I certainly don't take issue with your rating of the show. As you pointed out, we gave it the same one even though we were watching it through different prisms. Really, this entire conversation started from my surprise at your statement that you didn't consider KlK a comedy (and again, I understand that KlK isn't strictly a comedy). So yeah, that's really where our departure point is: I feel it is an action-comedy and a parody of shonen shows whereas, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe that KlK is basically a shonen show with neither more nor less comedy in it than any typical shonen show. This difference in our viewpoints accounts for some of the differences in how we judge specific events. It's no biggie.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:37 pm Reply with quote
What I was trying to communicate was about only seeing the events as shallowly being part of the story narrative rather than a creative narrative. For example, how can Gamagori be so large, but more alarming is the fact that his size seems to vary between scenes. A shallow look is seeing it that the writers have not even bothered to get a definite size and keep changing it because of that. While deeper means how it relates to everything else, in this you notice that how big we see him is not what defines him, it is his place that acts as either a wall to protect Satsuki, or as a presence that intimidates students and enforce his rules. It because of that that we see him seemingly defy gravity and such.

Shallowly looking at Nui's presence also sees based on her variable fighting skills and little look into motivations and some hint at origin. But it is when you actually look deeper at what part she had in conjunction to everyone else. Up to that point everyone has been rather serious, perhaps with the exception of Nonon, although Nonon place did have meaning as she was culture and she had the part of school. Nui against all of that, she was pink and frilly and seemed to do whatever she wanted with little motivation, she stood in contrast to Ryuko, you would notice Nui's eyepatch, while Senketsu's is on the right. And just thinking, we saw her introduced during the tournament and she kind of has all the traits of Elite 4; Gamagori's intimidation, Nonon somewhat cuteness, Sanageyama's swordplay, and Inumata's precision and analytical abilities. She was being displayed as the worst that she had seen to that point. And there is more that could probably said about her as she could do things like lean on her own text, like she defied the very logic of the action and serious tone.

You could even comment that those elements themselves are a type of comedy. Not the "ha ha, she is leaning on the letters", but that she is one of the main antagonists and completely defies the hot bloodness that the show is mean to be set on.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:47 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
What I was trying to communicate was about only seeing the events as shallowly being part of the story narrative rather than a creative narrative. For example, how can Gamagori be so large, but more alarming is the fact that his size seems to vary between scenes. A shallow look is seeing it that the writers have not even bothered to get a definite size and keep changing it because of that. While deeper means how it relates to everything else, in this you notice that how big we see him is not what defines him, it is his place that acts as either a wall to protect Satsuki, or as a presence that intimidates students and enforce his rules. It because of that that we see him seemingly defy gravity and such.


I definitely would not use Gamagoori's changing size as an example of what I was talking about. I do think it was pretty obvious that his changing size was being used throughout the show to indicate his "shield" position. That's why I didn't mention that in my examples. Also, this is more of a physical concern that you are speaking about in regard to Gamagoori. When I say character development, I am not really focused on the physical, but more on the emotional/mental/motivational. I am talking more about the experiences, ideas, and dreams/wishes that make a character who they are. That's the type of development I am looking for, and it is much more than the superficial things like the minutia of their appearance.

Quote:

Shallowly looking at Nui's presence also sees based on her variable fighting skills and little look into motivations and some hint at origin. But it is when you actually look deeper at what part she had in conjunction to everyone else. Up to that point everyone has been rather serious, perhaps with the exception of Nonon, although Nonon place did have meaning as she was culture and she had the part of school. Nui against all of that, she was pink and frilly and seemed to do whatever she wanted with little motivation, she stood in contrast to Ryuko, you would notice Nui's eyepatch, while Senketsu's is on the right. And just thinking, we saw her introduced during the tournament and she kind of has all the traits of Elite 4; Gamagori's intimidation, Nonon somewhat cuteness, Sanageyama's swordplay, and Inumata's precision and analytical abilities. She was being displayed as the worst that she had seen to that point. And there is more that could probably said about her as she could do things like lean on her own text, like she defied the very logic of the action and serious tone.

You could even comment that those elements themselves are a type of comedy. Not the "ha ha, she is leaning on the letters", but that she is one of the main antagonists and completely defies the hot bloodness that the show is mean to be set on.


My comment on Nui was the same. I am looking for insights into Nui the character, not Nui the plot device or symbolism. I think she was an effective plot device/symbol, but not a compelling character. It is the same way I look at your (and others) commentary on Mako. Very effective plot device/symbol, but sorely lacking in the character department.
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