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Kill la Kill (TV).


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:26 pm Reply with quote
Animeking1108 wrote:
People overreacted to 'Kill la Kill'- Why is it that people lambasted KLK for objectifying women and having rape imagery, but just loves "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" for doing the same thing?


It's shockingly simple. Which gender is Haruhi? Female. Now, which gender is Senketsu? Well, he's a piece of clothing, but both his voice and personality are male, so we'll go with that. And there's your answer.

Our entire culture and society - not to mention our antiquated laws - think that sexual assault can only be perpetrated by men against women. Even supposedly enlightened feminists rarely stop to consider that women are actually capable of sexual assault, and when they see it in their fiction they just pass it off as not being real rape because the perp wasn't a man. But such an attitude is shockingly out of date (if it was ever in touch to begin with), because woman-on-woman sexual assault is frighteningly common. According to the Santa Fe Rape Crisis and Trauma Treatment Center, one in three lesbians have been raped - at least once - by another woman. If true, it would mean that lesbians are twice as likely to be raped by a woman than straight women are of being sexually assaulted (whether it be groping or worse) by a man. And yet, even in Western Countries with relatively tolerant attitudes towards the LGBT community, lesbians who have endured rape have a near-impossible time trying to get the police and the judiciary to take them seriously. Even when that happens, sometimes the local laws only define rape as strictly man-on woman, which means lesbians (and gays, and also straight men who have been raped by women) cannot get proper justice because the law simply doesn't recognise that the crime of rape could've taken place.

We as a society simply don't take woman-on-woman assault anywhere near as seriously as we do man-on-woman assault. And think back to all the "crazy aggressive lesbian" characters we see in anime, such as Kuroko from A Certain Scientific Railgun. We're supposed to find such characters funny. We're supposed to get turned on by seeing a girl grab another's breasts when they're bathing together. And because of cultural conditioning, we usually do. We enjoy watching girl-on-girl behaviour that - if it was boy-on-girl instead - we would immediately denounce. That's incredibly sad and hypocritical.

Anyway, back to your question. I am strongly of the opinion that if Senketsu was female then viewers would have found that to be more okay, and if Haruhi had been male then more people would have taken a dim view of all the things she did to Mikuru.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:50 am Reply with quote
Wow this is an old thread. However, the comment about KLK was relevant so I won't knock you for reviving the thread.

That being said, the real unpopular opinion is not "SURPRISE!! People like Kill la Kill!" That's conventional thought right now. It's not a big no-no to praise Kill la Kill, whether by itself or in comparison to other shows like Haruhi.

The unpopular opinion would be to bash Kill la Kill. Personally, I enjoyed KLK. It was weird, crazy and fun. However, even though I enjoyed it, I recognize that the story made absolutely no sense and the show was rife with sexism and sexual assault. For whatever reason, we all collectively decided to let them get away with it because it's all so over the top that it is hard to criticize in a serious way. But the show is pretty crude.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:50 pm Reply with quote
^ ...why?

Really, all I can ask is "why". I'm glad you enjoyed the show, really, but you really need to answer the "why"s you brought up. Why is Kill la Kill sexist? Why is it unconventional to criticize it? WHY?

This is a problem I've seen from you before. I remember you distinctly commenting on a thread I started, saying my examples were bad and your examples were good without providing an explanation. Specifically, your examples were from shows that I had not seen (and still haven't seen in the case of Twelve Kingdoms). I'm not going to listen to you unless you start backing yourself up with evidence.

Here, let me start. Kill la Kill's female characters are people first and women second. Yes, they are dressed in skimpy clothes, but it is not portrayed as objectifying in the slightest. In fact, the show spends equal time looking upon the naked bodies of both the male and female members of the cast. I can remember two cases where the camera lingered upon Mikisugi's lovely chest. In addition, we get to see Sanageyama and Gamagori's naked bodies in almost-exquisite detail, including nipples, which were not drawn on the female characters.

Let's not get started on the varying female protagonists. Ryuko, Mako, Satsuki, Nonon, Ragyo, and Nui, among others, are given distinct personalities and motivations. Ryuko is a hot-blooded delinquent looking for answers to her past, Mako's the plucky sidekick who latches onto Ryuko as her only friend, Satsuki is the calm and calculating school princess who always seems to be ahead of the game, and so on and so on. All of them are just as interesting to follow and fun to watch as the male characters.

There. I explained myself to the best of my abilities. Keep in mind I'm only about halfway through the series, so some of the details I provided up there might be inaccurate.
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Ignatz





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:44 pm Reply with quote
Well, obviously Kill la Kill is sexist, since, as you noted, they didn't draw nipples on the female characters.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:21 pm Reply with quote
There are a whole lot of things I could use for evidence of sexism in Kill la Kill, but let's just start with this one: one of the core themes of the show is that women are at their highest level of existence when they are stripped down for a male audience to watch and leer at their bodies. Personally, I find the fact that a lot of people seem to claim that that is the ultimate form of feminism to be disturbing. It might be different if KlK was intended for a female audience, and was some kind of liberation story, but it's not. It's a male-targeted show focusing on young women being stripped down and put into compromised situations, or submitting to sexual predators.

And remember, this thread isn't called "Popular anime opinions that all the fans share!"
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:58 am Reply with quote
Animeking1108 wrote:
People overreacted to 'Kill la Kill'- Why is it that people lambasted KLK for objectifying women and having rape imagery, but just loves "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" for doing the same thing? The difference between the two is that: 1. KLK is equal opportunity with its fanservice. 2. While the scenes with Ryuko's uniform were unfortunately scripted and animated, the uniform didn't actually rape Ryuko. TMOHS, on the other hand, shows full on-screen girl-on-girl sexual assault.

I'm not trying to justify one anime sin while ripping on another. I'm just pointing out a major double-standard. I can see why the first episode of KLK put a few people off. I'm just pointing out another popular anime that gets less criticism for the same crime.


As a woman I found KLK much more objectifying than Haruhi. Granted there was stuff that bothered me about Haruhi too (mainly the characterization of Mikuru) but it didn't rub me the wrong way as people telling me this show was empowering me as a woman when all I saw was male gaze.

Don't know if that is popular or unpopular opinion. I have friends who love KLK including women but hey everyone is different and for me there were things that definitely skeeved me out about KLK. Nudity itself is not the problem.

That being said I didn't drop KLK because of that I dropped it after the first 13 episodes because I realized I wasn't going to miss it and at the time I was already following a lot of other stuff I liked more. I did hear the 2nd half is even stronger than the first so I may pick it up again one day but it being Aniplex also deters me because why watch something that if I am going to end up wanting to buy it will cost me a fortune.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:57 am Reply with quote
I did feel that there were some major sexism issues with Kill la Kill that made me feel very uncomfortable early on. But there was something around half way that had a change in my opinion and has had me look at it differently. It was something about the show saying that such leering view and exploitation connected to embarrassment, could have its power taken away. By pretty much ignoring the standards that others held over attire they got stronger and not controlled by others.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4070
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:00 am Reply with quote
Animeking1108 wrote:
People overreacted to 'Kill la Kill'- Why is it that people lambasted KLK for objectifying women and having rape imagery, but just loves "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" for doing the same thing? The difference between the two is that: 1. KLK is equal opportunity with its fanservice. 2. While the scenes with Ryuko's uniform were unfortunately scripted and animated, the uniform didn't actually rape Ryuko. TMOHS, on the other hand, shows full on-screen girl-on-girl sexual assault.


Ragyo spoiler[rapes her daughter!]
"Shows full on-screen girl-on-girl sexual assualt."
Yes!!... but it's the other show!

Oh, I'm sorry, you said "rape imagery". The spoiler[actual thing doesn't count] or didn't happen. On screen, explicit as they could do it... "No, she was just massaging her chakras, there's nothing.."

Wrong! It's entirely about spoiler[]rape].

The damn fandom and this show; Is there a blindness involved with Kill la Kill? I noticed the same thing with Hope Chapman's reviews, it's being revised as people rewatch somehow. "It's not fascist here or sexist here because later in the show..."

Look, if you like it, fine, just admit to yourself what it is, don't just take the stuff you like, find a show that had plot elements you don't like but are also in Kill la Kill and then say "See, Kill la Kill isn't" whatever "but " whatever" is so I'm right. The show's ok, I'm ok!"

In regards to Mikuru and her abuse by Haruhi, it was Mikuru's spoiler[job and her boss was herself.] It can't be rape if you get paid...

Ok, that came out wrong. {There's nothing funny about rape... except this isn't rape but still, there's nothing funny about it}

It can't be rape if it's consensual and spoiler[the adult Mikuru herself has no problem with it and she's the same as the younger Mikuru in a stable time loop.] They both also know nothing happens because... well, see spoiler. Let's face it, if a little heavy petting saves the world, what would you do?

Nowhere near the same level as Kill la Kill. What's next?
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:03 am Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
There are a whole lot of things I could use for evidence of sexism in Kill la Kill, but let's just start with this one: one of the core themes of the show is that women are at their highest level of existence when they are stripped down for a male audience to watch and leer at their bodies. Personally, I find the fact that a lot of people seem to claim that that is the ultimate form of feminism to be disturbing. It might be different if KlK was intended for a female audience, and was some kind of liberation story, but it's not. It's a male-targeted show focusing on young women being stripped down and put into compromised situations, or submitting to sexual predators.

And remember, this thread isn't called "Popular anime opinions that all the fans share!"


You...you did it again. You didn't actually provide any concrete evidence of your argument, other than saying "this happened"! You didn't pull out major scenes or quotes or pictures or anything! Once again, I'm not going to take your POV seriously until you've done that.

Okay, I'm going to argue my side again. I'll start with a question: outside of the battle scenes, how much fan-service is there? Are there gratuitous views of Ryuko's breasts or bottoms? Are there random panty shots of Mako? Has Satsuki gotten any pointless nude scenes? I recall Ryuko having a few scenes in the bath so far, but they weren't very leery. There was that scene of Mako's execution in the very first episode, but the whole thing was played for laughs because she was more concerned about perverts then being killed. And Satsuki? Out of all eleven episodes I've seen, only Episode Three has her naked, and it was part of a very important scene involving her bonding with Junketsu.

The thing is, Kill la Kill honestly doesn't have as much fanservice as one would think. The reason people remember it so much is because of the designs of Ryuko and Satsuki's outfits, but even then, the focus remains on the action. When people do discuss whether it's feminist or not, it all goes back to the use of fanservice, which...

...really, comes off as a bit like slut-shaming. "Oh, look, her outfit is showing off her body! Misogyny!" Yes, more often than not, fanservice is often used as pandering to the male audience. Yes, there are some scenes in Kill la Kill that can come off as uncomfortable to watch. (I honestly don't think the infamous "bonding" scene from Episode One was meant to be seen as rape-like, but I also don't think the storyboard directors saw what it looked like.) However, the show doesn't go over the top and prefers to save the nudity for select moments. Even then, it isn't just the girls who are getting naked. Remember Mikisugi the stripper?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/e20720e1f9d5577dbd25056c98279b2a/tumblr_muliy6ftVC1snlmd2o1_400.png

FEMUUUUUUUULLLLL GAAAAAAAAZE.


Okay, but seriously, I almost never see people see people talk about feminism as it relates to Kill la Kill outside of the fanservice. You guys all ignored my arguments about the characters. Most of them stand on their own, rather than being defined by a man. Compare to it's older cousin Gurren Lagann, whose female cast is either defined by being siblings of a man (The Black Sisters) or love interests (Nia), or has no role in the plot outside of fanservice (Yoko). Sorry, Gurren Lagann, but as much as I enjoyed watching you, your attitudes towards women are insulting.

And just for the record? To those who say it's not popular to criticize the show? Clearly, you've never been to the deepest and darkest parts of Tumblr. Hell, I'm not going to pretend the show is the best thing since sliced bread. (The humor in particular takes a lot getting used to.) Still, I don't think it's as sexist as you say it is. Believe me, I will argue this until the day I die.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:43 am Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:

You...you did it again. You didn't actually provide any concrete evidence of your argument, other than saying "this happened"! You didn't pull out major scenes or quotes or pictures or anything!...

...The thing is, Kill la Kill honestly doesn't have as much fanservice as one would think.


Oh yea... Kill la Kill is not about fanservice at all! There's like, practically no fanservice in KlK guys. Why would you even think there was any fanservice in KlK??? That's just crazy talk, hahahaha...

https://otakuorbit.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/kill-19-1.png

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/107634/634/96/vlcsnap2013100512h25m58s7.png

http://i5.minus.com/i10z88eGkWysY.jpg

https://38.media.tumblr.com/a7c7e67e8af94abef444927cc66d757e/tumblr_mx19d40zQO1rkeknyo2_500.gif

http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2014/3/30/klk2.jpg

https://31.media.tumblr.com/a03db9b158adc105fd6d0b81b731130f/tumblr_inline_n3bg37q3wR1sc44e4.gif

https://compulsiveozblogger.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/the-fanservice.gif

http://www.entravity.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/kill-18-29-kiryuuin-satsuki-and-ryuuko.jpg

Oh, by the way, do NOT type in "Kill la kill satsuki fanservice" in Google, unless you want to enter a whole new world of pornography.

Quote:
...really, comes off as a bit like slut-shaming. "Oh, look, her outfit is showing off her body! Misogyny!" Yes, more often than not, fanservice is often used as pandering to the male audience.


Yea, see that's exactly my point. The message of the show is "Girls who strip down and show their bodies in sexy positions for men are the true feminists! They are the true heroes! Girls who won't do that? There's something wrong with them. They are just embarrassed or ashamed or something. That's messed up! Look, if they want to be real women, they need to strip down and show some skin like Ryuko!"

Like I said, I think people who can watch Kill la Kill for just the crazy, weird romp that it is, I have no issue with that. If you don't take the show seriously at all, and treat it like the guilty pleasure it is, then it's mostly harmless fun. But people who get all serious and defensive about the show, claiming that it is somehow enlightening us all about feminism or the way women should think, I think that is very strange. It's like saying Hugh Hefner is the greatest teacher for young girls to show them how to be proper women.


{Edit: There is no need to post 8 large images and gifs. Especially when they are NSFW. Next time please just post them as links. ~ Psycho 101}
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:25 am Reply with quote
^ Aaaaaaand ninety-five percent of the pictures you provided were from battle scenes. Proving that you did not listen to me when I asked how much fanservice there was outside of battle scenes. Only two of them counted, and I'm pretty sure that one was framed in a creepy and not-okay-in-universe way, and the other I LITERALLY ADDRESSED IN MY LAST POST.

As for the message...I'm not really getting that vibe at all. Once again, I haven't completed the series yet, but nudity is everywhere in Kill la Kill. It looks like you're working off the belief that fanservice is always objectifying. No, it isn't always objectifying. If, say, these female characters had little to no personality (which is not the case) and had the camera focused on their chest and butt ninety percent of the time (which, contrary to what you've been saying, is not the case), THEN I'd agree with you. But so far, I stand by my opinion. (As an aside, I don't recall Mako's Goku Uniform as being especially stripperiffic, and she still kicked plenty of ass.)

And once again, you've been ignoring everything else I've said about why I don't think this show is sexist (or at least, not as sexist as people say it is). You haven't discussed the character writing. You haven't mentioned Mikisugi or any of the transformations sequences involving the guys. You've been regurgitating the same arguments over and over again without really backing anything up. I'll give you credit that you did provide photos, but I'm not giving you brownie points because you explicitly ignored my instructions.

At this point, we're not going to get anywhere. Let's just agree to end this until I've finished the series.
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nobahn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Attention all--
Please be advised that the posts starting from here to the above post were moved by me from this thread.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:54 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
^ Aaaaaaand ninety-five percent of the pictures you provided were from battle scenes. Proving that you did not listen to me when I asked how much fanservice there was outside of battle scenes. Only two of them counted, and I'm pretty sure that one was framed in a creepy and not-okay-in-universe way, and the other I LITERALLY ADDRESSED IN MY LAST POST.


I'm sorry but your reasoning is BS. Kill la Kill is like Cross Ange. A fighting anime. It's obvious that most fanservice shots will be in those scenes. You cannot disregard them to make your point.

People criticised Cross Ange for the character's pilot suits. Suits that are used in combat mecha. Why would this kind of fanservice be revilled in Cross Ange and yet admired in Kill la Kill ? Hypocrisy at its best.

Kill la Kill is every bit as crass, and fanservice heavy as Cross Ange. Just because most editors here like it and considered it some kind of artistic statement doesn't change the reality.
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getchman
Space Cowboy



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:56 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:


Oh, by the way, do NOT type in "Kill la kill satsuki fanservice" in Google, unless you want to enter a whole new world of pornography.


that was far too tempting. I regret nothing
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:48 pm Reply with quote
Cptn_Taylor wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
^ Aaaaaaand ninety-five percent of the pictures you provided were from battle scenes. Proving that you did not listen to me when I asked how much fanservice there was outside of battle scenes. Only two of them counted, and I'm pretty sure that one was framed in a creepy and not-okay-in-universe way, and the other I LITERALLY ADDRESSED IN MY LAST POST.


I'm sorry but your reasoning is BS. Kill la Kill is like Cross Ange. A fighting anime. It's obvious that most fanservice shots will be in those scenes. You cannot disregard them to make your point.

People criticised Cross Ange for the character's pilot suits. Suits that are used in combat mecha. Why would this kind of fanservice be revilled in Cross Ange and yet admired in Kill la Kill ? Hypocrisy at its best.

Kill la Kill is every bit as crass, and fanservice heavy as Cross Ange. Just because most editors here like it and considered it some kind of artistic statement doesn't change the reality.



I...I can't even. I haven't even seen Cross Ange, so don't use that example against me. I don't think you've even read anything I've stated as to why I personally don't think the show was THAT sexist. You just pulled something I said out of context and called it bull without bothering to explain it.

Let me just boil down why I don't think Kill la Kill is sexist with this; the characters have personalities and motivations beyond "sex doll". I'm going home. Good day.


{For starters no need for the gif to make your point. Secondly, and more importantly, saying "screw you guys" only makes you look rude and the one at fault. ~ Psycho 101
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