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marie-antoinette
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:48 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
Not "world", "series".


I'd argue that it's true of both. There are definitely lots of twists that are completely independent of the setting but that doesn't negate the fact that Madoka's world does have a set of rules that it follows and the gradual reveal of this rules - aka the worldbuilding - drives the plot just as much as the characters' actions.
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Ghost_Wheel



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:48 pm Reply with quote
@Animegomainic.

I agree with you on a lot of your points actually. You bring up a few of my aforementioned gripes with Madoka's plot. But I voted for it because I believe the setting distinguishes itself as a concept, especially over Bath House. At the very least, I don't think the setting is a backdrop for the whole thing; the show relies on its world rather heavily. And yeah, if I wrote the guide entry I'd have done it a little differently, but I don't put nearly enough stock into the world to nominate it myself.

And I'm sorry if you got the wrong idea. I wasn't bashing you earlier, I just thought it was funny that what one person dislikes about a show is something another could find cool.
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One-Eye
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:11 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin
vs.
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
Hmmm...I'm going with New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit, because based on what I saw of BPE Moribito seemed to be the more polished show.

Group B-18
World of Madoka Magica, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
vs.
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away
Madoka's worldbuilding isn't so much about geography, cityscapes or cultures. However, it is about mechanics and how everything works in this particular world of magical girls. All the mechanics aren't revealed at the beginning either, but slowly over the course of the show and it all has significance in the story. Faustian bargains as part of the world building? That's pretty cool. On the other hand, I love Spirited Away. It like Princess Mononoke and to a lesser extent Nausicaa has some strange almost alien type qualities that draw me in (for some it might actually repel). The environment is very visually detailed and probably is in part what creates this other world feeling. This vote is a toss up for me and I'm ok with either one advancing. Spirited Away's immersive qualities versus PMMM world mechanics. I think I'm going to give it to the World of Madoka Magica because it develops and presents its world over the length of an entire show.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
vs.
World of One Piece, One Piece
Unlike the other big shounen shows One Piece never grabbed me. Also Animegomaniac made an interesting argument against it. I don't think Nausicaa is as strong as PM or SA, because the world sometimes feels a little dated to a particular time in SciFi storytelling. In part because of what feels like a 70s sensibilities its not as immersive for me. However, it is still an engaging world with some beautiful designs and creatures that work strongly together to create its vision of a post-apocalyptic earth. Voting for Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.

Group B-20
Victorian England, Victorian Romance Emma
vs.
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
I haven't seen Emma, but I've gotten the impression that its a little dry at times. Meanwhile, every time I start FMA:B I never seem to be able to finish it. Never finished the original FMA either. Based on this I'm not feeling especially passionate about either show. I think I'll go with Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood because the alchemy at least makes it entertaining for me.
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Furudanuki



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:05 pm Reply with quote
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Furudanuki



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1874

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:33 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
This match-up is heartbreaking because I would happily vote for either one of these if paired against any of the other six contestants in this grouping. Both present interesting and detailed settings for their "home" locale, depict how other cultures and races can effect that locale, provide a very plausible rationale for political intrigues and social conflicts, and so on and so forth. I'm going to vote for New Yogo Empire simply because it was a bit more polished, but Beast Player Erin deserves to advance as well.

Group B-18
Bath House of the Gods
This one is pretty much a toss-up, but I'm going to give it to Bath House of the Gods for its attention to detail.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
I don't consider it to be very strong compared to some of the other remaining competitors, but I'll still vote for Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth. My exposure to One Piece is somewhat limited since that type of show isn't exactly my cup of tea, and I've yet to see any reasons why I ought to take its setting very seriously.

Group B-20
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
I found Emma's depiction of Victorian England to be perfectly adequate, but nothing about it compels me to rank it ahead of a series with a well crafted original world like Amestris.
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Unicorn_Blade



Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 961
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:20 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin
Erin's world is one of the most compelling and complete out of the competition. We get so see in a lot of detail quite a few locations and the politics of the world is also portrayed very realistically, with no omissions

Group B-18
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away
based on the wrtite up and what I remember about Spirited Away.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
Going with the one I know better, but aside from that, I have first seen Nausicaa many years ago and I was absolutely blown away by the visuals of the post-apocaliptic world and the relationship between nature and humanity.

Group B-20
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood[/quote]
Amestris is another one of my favourites in this competition. Quite complex politics behind the creation of the country, with different forces struggling to get the upper hand, the interesting relation between the 4 headquarters and central, and small villages around the country, each having distinct characteristics (like for example Rush Valley and its automail business).
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farichada



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 287
Location: Stevens Point, WI

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin
vs.
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
I'm going with World of Best Player Erin since the world is more expansive and complex with different politics and conflicts displayed in a more believable fashion.


Group B-18
World of Madoka Magica, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
vs.
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away
Madoka's world is more nebulous and not as distinctive as Spirited Away's more immersive qualities you would expect from a Miyazaki film, and the attention to detail blows the competition out of the water here. Bath House of the Gods

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
vs.
World of One Piece, One Piece
One Piece world is certainly large and has the advantage in terms of sheer content, but again I'm going with the immersive Miyazaki pick over the shonen juggernaut favoring quality over quantity. Nausicaa's world is far more complexly detailed and the components and environments works together to create a well fleshed out and distinctive view of a post-apocalyptic Earth. The not so subtle reference to real world problems presented in a logical way only heighten the power of this world to influence the viewer outside the context of watching the film. Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.

Group B-20
Victorian England, Victorian Romance Emma
vs.
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
Emma's world is certainly well researched, but it lacks the character and vibrancy of Amestris. The world is far more engaging and vivacious while Victorian England can be a bit dry and stale. Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:00 am Reply with quote
Notice: Although this isn't for certain, do not be surprised if results and the new round are delayed until late Tuesday evening. (It's a work-related issue.) The round will still end at midnight Tuesday as normal.

Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin
vs.
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit

Sounds like BPE is a serious competitor, and this is on my "to see" list, but New Yogo Empire is such a strong competitor that I don't think comparing series strength length matters. As someone who has read the book, I can attest that the anime adds much to the setting that wasn't in the book, so the anime version surpasses the book in that respect. The notions of cultural drift, of important history being reduced to clues in long-standing traditions and children's songs because of history being tweaked for political purposes, and even customs like unique wrestling, fighting techniques, and gambling styles all contribute to one of the most richly-detailed of all fantasy settings, and that's without even factoring in the existence of Nayug (essentially the spirit realm) into the equation. And it's worth noting that the only voter so far who has clearly indicated seeing both has opted for NYE.

Group B-18
World of Madoka Magica, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
vs.
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away

Factoring in the third movie (which I saw last night) almost is enough to sway me towards PMMM, although for reasons that I cannot get into without speaking about major spoilers. (And really, the less you know about that movie going in, the better.) Even so, I still find Bath House of the Gods to be such a wonderfully imaginative and detailed setting that it outdoes even the interesting concepts of Incubators and witch's labyrinths in PMMM. Without Rebellion figured in, this one is a "no contest" for me.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
vs.
World of One Piece, One Piece

Kinda "meh" about this match-up. Still inclined towards World of One Piece because it's such a broad and imaginative world, even if it is a little kooky, and Nausicaa's setting does not impress me quite as much as some other Miyazaki worlds do.

Group B-20
Victorian England, Victorian Romance Emma
vs.
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

No matter how well-detailed Victorian England is, it simply gets trumped by the more expansive setting of Brotherhood's Amestris. (I might have voted this differently if we were talking about the first FMA series, though.)

EDIT: See strike-through


Last edited by Key on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:45 am Reply with quote
marie-antoinette wrote:
Animegomaniac wrote:
Not "world", "series".


I'd argue that it's true of both. There are definitely lots of twists that are completely independent of the setting but that doesn't negate the fact that Madoka's world does have a set of rules that it follows and the gradual reveal of this rules - aka the worldbuilding - drives the plot just as much as the characters' actions.


The revelations of the contract can't be part of the world building because as it's part of the plot, it would have been reduced in importance, perhaps to zero, if the girls asked more questions, or simply the right questions, prior to agreeing. "They didn't know then but they know now and their and for us the audience, our expanded worldview is what makes the setting worth voting for."

If these "changes" were part of its world rather than its story then I would agree that it's part of its setting/world building {the last episode is a perfect example of what I getting at} but even the series admits these parts were in effect for hundreds of years, the magical girl candidates just never asked.

Maybe I'm not explaining this right. How about this: Changing the plot shouldn't effect the basic setting? Madoka is at times too much like a bad "Choose Your Own Adventure" book {or a visual novel if you don't get that reference}; "If you choose left, you get fame and fortune, if you choose right, you get eaten by a dragon." But the dragon's only there and only matters if you look to the right. But shouldn't it always be there, from start to end?

If you want to get into metafiction settings where what the viewer experiences is part of the world then I'd recommend Princess Tutu which has several audience surrogates and author/creator surrogates as character types {I consider character types to be part of the setting, actual characters part of the plot} and they and what they experience actually affect the world.

Madoka's actual setting can be summed as "in the not too different future {Funny, I meant "distant"}, there are [spoilers] combating [spoilers] and which they've been doing so for years, under the watchful eyes of [spoilers]." Sadly, why they've been doing it is just as meaningless as who've they've been fighting and filling in the [spoilers] doesn't even matter. In the end, it's less than a metaphor that spoiler[Madoka disappears, a paradox sucked up into a singularity, the main title character who's one sole action in this timeline not only negates the rest of the series but her own existence.]

Why less than a metaphor? The series negates its own "world building" in the end, making everyone's discoveries and experiences worthless. Like Clannad After Story, only with more murder and mayhem. Which is fine for a series but "blah" as a setting. Unless we're voting for the last episode, which we're not.

Quote:
Factoring in the third movie (which I saw last night) almost is enough to sway me towards PMMM, although for reasons that I cannot get into without speaking about major spoilers. (And really, the less you know about that movie going in, the better.)


Yes, a changed ending would help. Sadly, seeing how this is AoA, the chances of me watching the movies legally are between zero and zero times infinity. Aniplex of America: Anime for the people! ... who can afford it.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:39 am Reply with quote
Oh, do be clear that the PMMM movie is an extension of the TV series, not a revised ending. (IOW, it's not an End of Evangelion situation, although I could see people comparing it to EoE for many other reasons. It's certainly a mind-screw on that level.) It definitely assumes the ending of the original series is intact and then carries the story further.
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rosebrook11



Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 742

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:53 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin
vs.
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit

New Yogo Empire I've only seen the first episode of Moribito, but I really enjoyed the overall scenery and how it had a little bit of supernatural element shown through Chagum.

Group B-18
World of Madoka Magica, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
vs.
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away

Bath House of the Gods I love Madoka, but most of what makes the show great for me isn't really related to worldbuilding When I think of Madoka, I primarily think of the characters and the visuals. Besides of the witches dungeons, not much about the world itself really stands out. Spritited Away for me, on the other hand, has better overall sense of world-building as we see the bathouse through the eyes of an individual who is just as confused as we are. As Chihiro works at the bathhouse, the viewers become more and more knowledgable as well.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
vs.
World of One Piece, One Piece

World of One Piece I never really found Nausicaa's setting to be all that memorable, especially when compared to the other Miyazaki films in this tournament. One Piece on the other hand is made of original ideas and each island that the Straw hats visit has its own culture around it making the show a joy to watch.

Group B-20
Victorian England, Victorian Romance Emma
vs.
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

Amestris I think both of these are good competitors; however, Amestris edges out Emma for me because of how the organization of the world itself becomes crucial to the overall plot.
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Baka RangerBaka Ranger


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:10 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin vs.
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
Choosing: New Yogo Empire
Having seen all of Moribito and only the first six episodes of Erin, I feel that the latter is a little more simplified, and has the world built to fit the plot, rather than the plot growing naturally in its world, as Moribito's does more.

Group B-18
World of Madoka Magica, Puella Magi Madoka Magica vs.
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away
Choosing: Madoka Magica
Animegomaniac seems to have mistaken the nature of this tournament. Noting that the witches' realms are very interesting in the same breath as dismissing them is narrow sighted. It's not best setting, but best world building. Something being a plot element doesn't disqualify it as a world-building element. The dismissal of the rules because of spoiler[the reset ending ignores how the reset is entirely within the established rules of the universe,] and thus part of the world-building.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind vs.
World of One Piece, One Piece
Choosing: Nausicaa
I believe I've commented before about how One Piece feels like a video game world, with regular escalation of difficulty based on location, and each island unconnected thematically from those preceding and following it.

Group B-20
Victorian England, Victorian Romance Emma vs.
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
Choosing: Victorian England
I don't begrudge Amestris its expected win, but I must give credit to the level of detail Kaoru Mori put into the mundane activities pf daily life.

Edit: Not sure if this got counted because I didn't realize I hadn't listed a vote in B-18 until well after the votes were tallied.


Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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marie-antoinette
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Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:19 pm Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia, you missed putting in who you are voting for in B-18.
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 999
Location: Colorful Colorado :)

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:33 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit
Haven't seen more than five episodes of BPE, but it would take quite a bit for me to vote against Shin-Yogo at this point in the competition. The world-building is detailed but subtle, the world itself is unique, and as Dorcas_Aurelia pointed out, it informs the plot nicely.

Group B-18
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away
Spirited Away's bathhouse will always be one of my favorite Miyazaki settings for its unique atmosphere and the way it builds a compelling and detailed world out of such a limited area.

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
From what I've seen of One Piece, its world is fun and imaginative, but too silly and inconsistent to vote for here. That kind of world has its merits, but won't do it any favors here. I don't think Nausicaa is the strongest Miyazaki world in the competition, but that doesn't mean it's weak. I think the Toxic Jungle and the Ohm are strong enough elements to vote for it here.

Group B-20
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood[/quote]
Hate to see Emma go, but Amestris is one of my favorites in the tournament for its depiction of alchemy, the details of the Amestrian military, and the wide variety of cultures and environments presented.
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getchman
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 6056
Location: Cheshire, CT

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:56 pm Reply with quote
Group B-17
World of Beast Player Erin, Beast Player Erin
vs.
New Yogo Empire, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit

I've only seen Moribito and that was a fantastic setting, so I'm confident in my vote for New Yogo Empire

Group B-18
World of Madoka Magica, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
vs.
Bath House of the Gods, Spirited Away

I'm watching Madoka every Friday night on Neon Alley. it's up to Episode 8 and I haven't really seen anything that would convince me to vote against Spirited Away. So, my vote goes to the Bath House of the Gods

Group B-19
Nausicaa’s Post-Apocalyptic Earth, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind
vs.
World of One Piece, One Piece

I've seen Once Piece in bits and pieces across many different arcs and I've some pretty strange stuff. haven't seen Naussica. One Piece looks looks cool, so I'll go with that

Group B-20
Victorian England, Victorian Romance Emma
vs.
Amestris, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood[/quote]

England in Emma is pretty very gorgeous and very nicely detailed, but Amestris is just a far more vast and a more interesting setting.
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