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Hey, Answerman! [2006-07-28]


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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Latitude 42.6324N, Longitude 71.3918W

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:01 am Reply with quote
ryujin jakka wrote:
Kilgamayan wrote:
ryujin jakka wrote:
:roll: Ok, This is pointless. Youll never change your stance and nither will I. When you are all burnning in hell, I will be laughing my ass off saying I told you so.

Have fun discussing this endless Rant, i have better thing's to do with my time!


Ad hominem will not win you many arguments.

ryujin jakka wrote:
quote tree whoamg

Are you an idiot?


No. Didn't you say you had better things to do with your time?


Just wandering, because you are defending Child Porn.

:P I thought I did but, Idiot's keep calling me back! and when idiot's call I answer. I am just that big of a dick. :D


I'm only defending one perception of child porn. I don't know if you've realized this yet, but your opinion does not beget universal fact.

It's a shame the idiot is actually properly debating while the person presumed to be smart has resorted to insults and insubstantiated arguments based solely in personal preference.

MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
But how does the simple fact that it's animated make it OK? Your fantasy is STILL using a young girl for your own pleasure--whether the picture is pen and ink or film doesn't change what it is. There's a big difference between 24--which, while made to excite using lots of violence, is not made for you to fantasize about killing--and lolicon, which exists to enhance those fantasies.


The difference is that the animated girl isn't real. She does not have feelings, emotions or a consciousness, or at least none of those things are perceivable in our reality (as long as we're opening the door to all possibilities like on the previous page).

In the case of lolicon, the subject does not exist outside of pen, ink and imagination. In the case of child porn, a real-life human being was victimized. On the coldest level, this means that my country's laws apply to the real-life human being but not to the idea that does not exist outside of the three aforementioned mediums.

JMays wrote:
Kilgamayan wrote:
This is a subjective stance, not an objective one. There is no universal moral or ethic saying beating off to animated 8-year-olds is sick.


Are you saying you don't find it sick, or are you arguing in the abstract just for the sake of arguing?


I am doing this because people in this thread are presenting their opinions as facts and using those opinions to attack views my friend holds as well as my friend himself. I am here to defend my friend and to demonstrate to those people that their opinions are opinions and not facts. You can take that as being "just for the sake of arguing" or not.

I actually don't know if I find it sick or not. I don't find it arousing in the slightest, but I recognize that others may have an opinion sufficiently different from mine that they do find it around and that it is not my place to judge whether they are right or wrong. It's basically a case of "I don't agree with what he says, but I'll defend to the death his right to say it."
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PantsGoblin
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:08 am Reply with quote
Kilgamayan wrote:
I am doing this because people in this thread are presenting their opinions as facts and using those opinions to attack views my friend holds as well as my friend himself. I am here to defend my friend and to demonstrate to those people that their opinions are opinions and not facts. You can take as being "just for the sake of arguing" or not.


Just to clarify here so this doesn't sound like some kind of reinforcement I called in, I didn't tell him to register here and defend me (notice his registration date, before this thread started). And no, I didn't tell him about this thread either.

Also, I was just joking about the name thing. Anime catgrin + sweatdrop You didn't have to delete it.


Last edited by PantsGoblin on Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Latitude 42.6324N, Longitude 71.3918W

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:17 am Reply with quote
Something else I should probably point out: I am not going to attempt to convince anyone that something is wrong with them for not liking lolicon or CP. Just as I recognize the positive opinion my friends hold on lolicon as a legitimate opinion, I recognize the negative opinion of lolicon others have presented in this thread as a legitimate opinion. I will not try to convince anyone that lolicon is definitely not "sick".

I am simply here to try to get those with a negative opinion of lolicon to recognize the positive opinion of lolicon as a legitimate one (NOTE: I am not asking them to like the opinion), as well as to get those people to stop attacking those who hold opinions that differ from their own.

If anyone has felt that I have tried to force upon them a change in opinion to the positive one, then I apologize for the misunderstanding, as that was not my intention.

EDIT: Holy Toledo, it's 5:30. I'll be back after some sleep to continue any necessary conversation and ignore any unnecessary flaming.


Last edited by Kilgamayan on Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PantsGoblin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:26 am Reply with quote
Also, one more thing I should bring up that I don't think has been brought up...

If you replace all of the instances in this thread where people say something to the extent of "Lolicon is SICK" and whatnot and replace "loli" with "homosexuality" and go back in time... there, you got yourself a typical anti-gay protest (something that dormcat brought up in his blog, so I should mention that also). This also goes for other similar taboo subjects.
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RDespair



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 228
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:38 am Reply with quote
Moral relativism sickens me. Although there are gray areas where people have differing opinions, some things are absolutely right or wrong regardless of what individuals think. Thank you to Zac and everyone else who has been trying to defend the idea that there is indeed such a thing as good and evil in the world and that life isn't just about doing whatever you feel like.

Child porn is wrong pure and simple. Even if the viewer of such material doesn't go out and rape children, it's still not a victimless crime. Watching and enjoying such material damages the individual watching it; it warps their mind and corrupts their way of thinking.

Some anime out there is child porn. Yes, they aren't actual children, but they're reasonable approximations of such. That said, not all anime that has panty shots or naked children in it is child porn: I wouldn't consider movies such as Kiki's Delivery Service, Only Yesterday, or Grave of the Fireflies to be child porn.

I too am worried about the social stigma that could come to anime fans in general as a result of this. This, combined with the rapidly growing popularity of yaoi (particularly among young girls) could really put a reversal on anime and manga's progress towards becoming a socially accepted hobby in the West.
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PantsGoblin
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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Location: Agoura Hills, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:42 am Reply with quote
Oh ya, forgot to comment on this...


ryujin jakka wrote:
When you are all burnning in hell, I will be laughing my ass off saying I told you so.

ryujin jakka wrote:
Razz I thought I did but, Idiot's keep calling me back! and when idiot's call I answer. I am just that big of a dick. Very Happy


Of course, we are all idiots compared to you. After all, you said it yourself:

ryujin jakka (aka God of the internet) wrote:
I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG


No doubt the best reasoning I've seen in this thread. I'm sorry we disagree with you almightly one. Sad

And geez, I thought Malintex Terek was bad...



Kilgamayan wrote:
people in this thread are presenting their opinions as facts


*looks at RDespair's post*

Hey, another one...

*sigh*
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dormcat
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Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9577
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:08 am Reply with quote
PantsGoblin wrote:
If you replace all of the instances in this thread where people say something to the extent of "Lolicon is SICK" and whatnot and replace "loli" with "homosexuality" and go back in time... there, you got yourself a typical anti-gay protest (something that dormcat brought up in his blog, so I should mention that also). This also goes for other similar taboo subjects.

Before anyone else replies with "homosexuality is between two consent adults; lolicon isn't and the child is the victim in such a relationship," I'd like to add something first: what defines "adult" and "age of consent?" Many countries draw the line at 18, but many others set it much lower, at 16, 14, or even <12. So, just how much control does a legal minor has over his/her own body?

Most current legal systems consider minors have no full control over their own minds and bodies, so having sex with a minor, even with his or her oral and/or written consent, is not considered a valid situation of "two consent individuals."

I'd also like to ask whoever draws a equal sign between "lolicon" and "rape:" could it be that all lolicon titles you know of are about raping kids? Twisted Evil The law defines having sex with a minor is considered as equivalent of raping even with the minor's consent because of reasons described above. I've seen teenage girls crying and begging the police not to take her boyfriend (who's a few years older) away and she loves him. You can argue that she's lovestruck, immature, and just bewilded by his sweet words and/or material bribes, but the same situation could apply to any adult as well. Who said the marriage isn't achieved by sweet words and material bribes? Twisted Evil

For fictional works like manga and anime, I'd rather see a romatic relationship between a minor and an adult, rather than an adult female being raped.

RDespair wrote:
Watching and enjoying such material damages the individual watching it; it warps their mind and corrupts their way of thinking.

Yo, Big Bro'

How 'bout banning smoking and fast foods first? They are harmful to their consumers, too.
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jmays
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Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1390
Location: St. Louis, MO

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:41 am Reply with quote
PantsGoblin wrote:
ryujin jakka (aka God of the internet) wrote:
I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG


No doubt the best reasoning I've seen in this thread. I'm sorry we disagree with you almightly one. Sad

Come on, you're taking the easy way out by attacking only the worst so-called arguments in the thread. Forget those and move on to something more substantial, like Chris's post.

PantsGoblin wrote:
YUGI wrote:
Animenation seems to be a haven of lolicon.
John O. has admitted in many forums of his unusual hobby.

Hmm, I didn't know that about John. Maybe I should start lurking around there more...

From the first thread Yugi linked:
Tang wrote:
John, why do you like lolicon hentai?

John wrote:
Uh, if I say that I think I enjoy lolicon for the same reason that most Japanese fans do, will that suffice?

John wrote:
The Japanese fascination with lolicon- particularly the hardcore erotic fetishization of pre-teen girls by artists like Nishi Iori and Askray, and in anime like Little Monica Monogatari, is an expression of instinctual desire, and a symptom of personal inadequacy. Naturally humans are attracted to small and cute things. That's why puppies and koala bears are popular. So some of the attraction toward lolitas is a result of this natural human instinct. Westerners, influenced by Christian/Judaic dogma, typically strive to suppress this natural instinct while Asians tend to accept it as a natural aspect of human nature and deal with it.

The appeal of small girls is also in the ability to take control and fulfill the self's desire to be dominant and masculine. There's little fear of inadequacy or failure when facing a significantly less threatening opponent/partner. So in that sense, the attraction isn't the child herself. The child simply allows the man to feel more secure and confident.

Is that why you like lolicon, or is it something else?
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
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Location: Central

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:04 am Reply with quote
JMays wrote:
Is that why you like lolicon, or is it something else?

I like lolicon because I prefer small body types. I don't think the age of the subject should even be considered since drawings have no age. Technically, if I drew an "18-yr old" naked anime girl 10 minutes ago, guess what? She's 10 minutes old. And if someone gets off to that picture, they're getting off to something that isn't even an hour old. Are they pedophiles (or even worse) for that?
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Jadress



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 802
Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:26 am Reply with quote
Wow, I can't believe I've read this whole damn thing. What a dizzying argument. I don't know why I'm getting myself into this, but...

Kilgamayan wrote:
Zac wrote:

Right, because it's just drawings of children being raped and abused and tortured.


Is this a problem? The United States government doesn't seem to think so, otherwise they would've made it illegal too. Disregarding legal issues leaves you with moral and ethical ones, and it's pointless to debate those because neither morals nor ethics are universal so you're never going to get anywhere.
...
So it's kiddie porn even though it isn't legally or (probably) morally? Then on what grounds is it? And are those grounds even meaningful at all if they're not legal or moral?


I don't really see how you can't call loli kiddie porn or at least "animated kiddie porn." It involves the depiction of children in sexual situations, whether they're real kids or imaginary is not what's being debated. And whether the government has ruled if it is legal or not is not what matters either- to the general public in most of the Western world and some beyond, they would call it kiddie (it has kid characters in it, right?) porn (it IS porn, right?). To say otherwise is saying that bondage hentai is not bondage porn because it's drawn, or that gay/yaoi hentai is not gay porn. They are STILL depictions of people in bondage! They are STILL depictions of two men! It's sexual, so it's STILL PORN! Why can't people just call it like it is? Enough with this ridiculous splitting hairs.

But the legality of loli/kiddie porn is not even what is being debated (though, of course, it's rampant in this discussion). Whether it's legal or not, whether your personal life philosophy thinks it's okay or not, whether you think that anyone should beat off to whatever they want, the BOTTOM LINE is that MOST PEOPLE WILL find lolicon stuff to be "WRONG," and if the general non-anime fan public were to be told about it, it would paint ALL anime fans with a negative brush because of a niche interest. Loli fans- you're not going to stop liking what you like- we get it. But you just have to live with the fact that most of the world will never look kindly upon your tastes and will fairly or unfairly think of you as a pedo or potential danger to children.
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RDespair



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 228
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:08 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

RDespair wrote:
Watching and enjoying such material damages the individual watching it; it warps their mind and corrupts their way of thinking.

Yo, Big Bro'

How 'bout banning smoking and fast foods first? They are harmful to their consumers, too.


Smoking is already banned in many ways: you can't legally smoke until you've reached a certain age and smoking in many locations is prohibited. Fast food has positive effects (i.e. it's food and reduces hunger and provides energy) and its negative effects are minimal unless you're eating it in excess. Does child pornography has positive effects? I think not.

Child pornography is already illegal in many countries. The legality of emulations of child pornography such as certain anime and manga depictions isn't as well defined. Personally, I think it should be illegal as well.
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burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:54 am Reply with quote
Mint Mania IIDX wrote:
JMays wrote:
Is that why you like lolicon, or is it something else?

I like lolicon because I prefer small body types. I don't think the age of the subject should even be considered since drawings have no age. Technically, if I drew an "18-yr old" naked anime girl 10 minutes ago, guess what? She's 10 minutes old. And if someone gets off to that picture, they're getting off to something that isn't even an hour old. Are they pedophiles (or even worse) for that?


Seriously, you must be kidding. Small body types? Have you ever actually looked at the cornucopia of animated pornography that comes out of Japan? Not that I am an aficictionado or anything but it isn't that hard to find petite woman of over 18 (or at least over the age of consent) in ecchi and hentai. It's cliche to say the least. There is the busty one, the petite one and the average one, ever show makes sure to have all three.

Also, if the "10-minute old drawing" defense works for loli, can I use the "10-minute old Polaroid" defense for live-action kiddie porn? Either way, you are ignoring the real or appearent age of the subject in favor of the age of the media.

Also, has anyone kept track of the number of "you can have my loli when you take it from my clammy, sticky fingers" defense that the loli-lovers have thrown up, because 28 pages into this thread, we finally have a person calling for an outright ban.
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Twage



Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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Location: Astoria, NY

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:02 am Reply with quote
This is the key post in this thread:

SakechanBD wrote:
Wooooaaaah there. Nobody should be beating off to animated 8-year-olds. Period. Why does it matter if they're real or animated? Masturbating about 8-year olds is SICK.

For chrissakes, THEY'RE EIGHT. I don't care if they're just acrylics on celuloid, they are EIGHT. They are in grade school. What makes it okay to think, "Oh god, this little kid is so sexy. It's a good thing she's animated, or else I'd feel really dirty right now touching my penis."


The fact is some people do feel better about themselves getting off on drawn material than on photos. And yes, at the same time, it doesn't matter, psychologically, one way or the other. Why is this? Let me take a stab at it.

The fact is there is a moral difference between photographed child pornography and drawn child pornography, but the difference isn't in the effect it has on the viewer. It's in how it's made. To photograph child porn involves actually hurting children. Producing that material is obviously immoral and criminal. To draw child porn is less clearly wrong, because no actual children are being hurt.

But from the viewer's standpoint there is no real difference between getting stimulation from photographs and from drawings. Photos are representations just as much as drawings are, and many drawings can attain near-photographic detail.

So the psychological effect on the viewer is only negligably different whether the porn is drawn or photographed. And that effect is that you are training yourself to get sexual satisfaction from looking at children. Just like Pavlov's dogs, after many sessions associating pictures of children (drawn or photographed) with sexual arousal, you will start to experience sexual arousal when looking at real children in everyday situations. And where could those feelings lead, under the wrong conditions?

That is the danger of child pornography, whether photographed or drawn.
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Latitude 42.6324N, Longitude 71.3918W

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:24 am Reply with quote
RDespair wrote:
Moral relativism sickens me. Although there are gray areas where people have differing opinions, some things are absolutely right or wrong regardless of what individuals think. Thank you to Zac and everyone else who has been trying to defend the idea that there is indeed such a thing as good and evil in the world and that life isn't just about doing whatever you feel like.


Incorrect. Assuming there are universal morals and ethics is what is known in philosophy circles as the naturalistic fallacy (although it's more commonly phrased as "is does not imply ought"). I'm sorry that you don't like it, but that's just how it works. Argue about it with your resident philosophy professor if you'd like, because this isn't just me saying this, but centuries of philosophers that put far more of their life than either of us into studying that kind of thing.

Jadress wrote:
Wow, I can't believe I've read this whole damn thing. What a dizzying argument. I don't know why I'm getting myself into this, but...

Kilgamayan wrote:
Zac wrote:

Right, because it's just drawings of children being raped and abused and tortured.


Is this a problem? The United States government doesn't seem to think so, otherwise they would've made it illegal too. Disregarding legal issues leaves you with moral and ethical ones, and it's pointless to debate those because neither morals nor ethics are universal so you're never going to get anywhere.
...
So it's kiddie porn even though it isn't legally or (probably) morally? Then on what grounds is it? And are those grounds even meaningful at all if they're not legal or moral?


I don't really see how you can't call loli kiddie porn or at least "animated kiddie porn." It involves the depiction of children in sexual situations, whether they're real kids or imaginary is not what's being debated. And whether the government has ruled if it is legal or not is not what matters either- to the general public in most of the Western world and some beyond, they would call it kiddie (it has kid characters in it, right?) porn (it IS porn, right?). To say otherwise is saying that bondage hentai is not bondage porn because it's drawn, or that gay/yaoi hentai is not gay porn. They are STILL depictions of people in bondage! They are STILL depictions of two men! It's sexual, so it's STILL PORN! Why can't people just call it like it is? Enough with this ridiculous splitting hairs.


Uh, okay. I have no problems calling it animated kiddie porn for the sake of this argument.

Jadress wrote:
But the legality of loli/kiddie porn is not even what is being debated (though, of course, it's rampant in this discussion). Whether it's legal or not, whether your personal life philosophy thinks it's okay or not, whether you think that anyone should beat off to whatever they want, the BOTTOM LINE is that MOST PEOPLE WILL find lolicon stuff to be "WRONG," and if the general non-anime fan public were to be told about it, it would paint ALL anime fans with a negative brush because of a niche interest. Loli fans- you're not going to stop liking what you like- we get it. But you just have to live with the fact that most of the world will never look kindly upon your tastes and will fairly or unfairly think of you as a pedo or potential danger to children.


I highly doubt that anyone with half a brain would see lolicon and pigeonhole the entire cartoon industry as a result. That'd be like people hearing about child porn and demanding the cancelation of Lazy Town. Even if some people did, it wouldn't be nearly enough to be influential, or else channels like Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network would be run off the air. (Note that Cartoon Network sticks around despite shows like The Boondocks, which is pretty brazen about some taboo issues itself.)

burzmali wrote:
Also, has anyone kept track of the number of "you can have my loli when you take it from my clammy, sticky fingers" defense that the loli-lovers have thrown up, because 28 pages into this thread, we finally have a person calling for an outright ban.


You want someone to get banned because of their opinion? And I thought the pedophiles were supposed the evil ones.

Twage wrote:
But from the viewer's standpoint there is no real difference between getting stimulation from photographs and from drawings. Photos are representations just as much as drawings are, and many drawings can attain near-photographic detail.

So the psychological effect on the viewer is only negligably different whether the porn is drawn or photographed. And that effect is that you are training yourself to get sexual satisfaction from looking at children. Just like Pavlov's dogs, after many sessions associating pictures of children (drawn or photographed) with sexual arousal, you will start to experience sexual arousal when looking at real children in everyday situations. And where could those feelings lead, under the wrong conditions?


I would be interested to hear about case studies that prove this theory.
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RDespair



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 228
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:39 am Reply with quote
Kilgamayan wrote:
RDespair wrote:
Moral relativism sickens me. Although there are gray areas where people have differing opinions, some things are absolutely right or wrong regardless of what individuals think. Thank you to Zac and everyone else who has been trying to defend the idea that there is indeed such a thing as good and evil in the world and that life isn't just about doing whatever you feel like.


Incorrect. Assuming there are universal morals and ethics is what is known in philosophy circles as the naturalistic fallacy (although it's more commonly phrased as "is does not imply ought"). I'm sorry that you don't like it, but that's just how it works. Argue about it with your resident philosophy professor if you'd like, because this isn't just me saying this, but centuries of philosophers that put far more of their life than either of us into studying that kind of thing.


"`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”" -Douglas Adams

Good and evil exist and trying to prove that they don't through the use of philosophical BS strikes me as the height of stupidity and arrogance.
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