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Hey, Answerman! [2006-08-04]


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Josh7289



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 1252
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:00 pm Reply with quote
Good job, Zac. The three arguments against lolicon here were all very well-founded and convincing. As you pointed out, the one argument for lolicon here completely negated its own point. It just goes to show you that there is no room in anime fandom for this type of material, and personally I believe there are far too many connections between animated and drawn child porn to real child porn that put real children at risk for this stuff to be legal in any form.

Thanks for (hopefully) getting this out of the way in just one week, Zac.
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:00 pm Reply with quote
one of the letters wrote:
As an aside, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe that "age of consent" laws are a well-intentioned, but misguided attempt to protect our youth. The age at which a person is capable of making his or her own decisions regarding sex varies between people, and these laws are an attempt at "better safe than sorry" legislation. These laws take away the rights of those who are underage and mature beyond their age to choose their sexual behavior.


So he is saying the "better safe than sorry" laws trample on a small minority of mature childrens rights. Anything to get them young I guess. Confused

Also Zac I didn't know if you wanted to allow another discussion on this or not, but there was a discuss link on the bottom of the page, so i clicked it. Feel free to delete this or lock this if you didn't want another discuss. But I would remove that link too.
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Latitude 42.6324N, Longitude 71.3918W

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:08 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
That's sorta my question. Why bother defending it? Why even bother being so public about it? We get it, they think 8-year olds are totally hot, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep it to themselves? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Why bother attacking it? Why even bother being so public about it? I get it, you think finding 8-year-olds totally hot is wrong, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep that to yourself? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Last edited by Kilgamayan on Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Josh7289



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 1252
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Kilgamayan wrote:
Zac wrote:
That's sorta my question. Why bother defending it? Why even bother being so public about it? We get it, they think 8-year olds are totally hot, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep it to themselves? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Why bother attacking it? Why even bother being so public about it? I get it, you think finding 8-year-olds totally hot is wrong, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep that to yourself? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Why kind of a counter-argument is that? Lolicon fans are the ones who first came out about it and presented this debate. If you want to proclaim you like something so objectively wrong, then you're going to get backlash for it.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:17 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Second, lolicon fans in general are starting to 'shout it from the rooftops' that they are such because no longer is it some deep dark secret.

Literally that's like saying someone coming out of the closet when they realize that they've turned gay. Which is a really bad connection so to speak. In my mind, and in the minds of other people, when it gets to the real point, then it becomes a problem. You can't just judge the animated material right there because there hasn't been anything to happen. And this will probably get another one started Rolling Eyes
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linlinchan



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:18 pm Reply with quote
one of the letters wrote:
As an aside, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe that "age of consent" laws are a well-intentioned, but misguided attempt to protect our youth. The age at which a person is capable of making his or her own decisions regarding sex varies between people, and these laws are an attempt at "better safe than sorry" legislation. These laws take away the rights of those who are underage and mature beyond their age to choose their sexual behavior.


The thing that disturbs me to no end about this particular arguement is that it can ONLY be seen as something which would benefit child preditors and not CHILDREN, were the age of consent to be radically dropped.

Why? Because this age of consent law does not say that a 10-year-old child cannot have sex. The law states that a 10-year-old cannot have sex with AN ADULT. :S
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Latitude 42.6324N, Longitude 71.3918W

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:18 pm Reply with quote
Josh7289 wrote:
Kilgamayan wrote:
Zac wrote:
That's sorta my question. Why bother defending it? Why even bother being so public about it? We get it, they think 8-year olds are totally hot, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep it to themselves? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Why bother attacking it? Why even bother being so public about it? I get it, you think finding 8-year-olds totally hot is wrong, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep that to yourself? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Why kind of a counter-argument is that? Lolicon fans are the ones who first came out about it and presented this debate. If you want to proclaim you like something so objectively wrong, then you're going to get backlash for it.


I wasn't defending lolicon as much as I was pointing out Zac's hypocrisy. Sure, I don't want to hear from the lolicoms about whether they find the stuff attractive or not, but at the same time I don't want to hear whether he finds it attractive or not. If all he had done was tell the lolicoms to "shut up because no one wants to hear it" without dragging his own opinion on the subject into it then I wouldn't have a problem.

As for objectivity, I already covered the non-universal state of morals and ethics in the other topic.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6157

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:21 pm Reply with quote
I can understand the issue with "Age of consent" and I don't think the first person was advocating or suggesting eliminating it completely or that 8 year olds should be allowed to say "okay" when daddy wants to play and be responsible for it. Maybe they were, but that wasn't how I saw it in the letter and that's not my view on th issue.

The problem with the "age of consent" is that people don't suddenly become enlightened on the day they turn 16/18/whatever. I think it is ridiculous that a 17 year old girl can have consensual sex but her 18 year old boyfriend can go to jail if they get caught, but on her 18th birthday it is suddenly okay (this assumes, of course, that the age of consent is 18 wherever she is). In addition, its okay if the other person is under the age of consent. The two aforementioned love birds can screw like rabbits when they are both 17, but when he turns 18, its suddenly illegal until she turns 18.

The "Age of Consent" has good intentions behind it, but it has its problems.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:22 pm Reply with quote
linlinchan wrote:
The thing that disturbs me to no end about this particular arguement is that it can ONLY be seen as something which would benefit child preditors and not CHILDREN, were the age of consent to be radically dropped.

Why? Because this age of consent law does not say that a 10-year-old child cannot have sex. The law states that a 10-year-old cannot have sex with AN ADULT. :S

I agree. What it does is it gives a 35 year old pervert an excuse to have sex with somebody not experienced in the field, and take advantage of them, etc. Scary world out there.
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bennyb



Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 477

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:29 pm Reply with quote
Art imitates life. If you enjoy watching fictional little girls commit sexual acts, I feel no guilt in labeling you a sick-o. Get some help, or at least stay the hell away from my neighborhood.
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cl4y



Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:35 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
The problem with the "age of consent" is that people don't suddenly become enlightened on the day they turn 16/18/whatever. I think it is ridiculous that a 17 year old girl can have consensual sex but her 18 year old boyfriend can go to jail if they get caught, but on her 18th birthday it is suddenly okay (this assumes, of course, that the age of consent is 18 wherever she is). In addition, its okay if the other person is under the age of consent. The two aforementioned love birds can screw like rabbits when they are both 17, but when he turns 18, its suddenly illegal until she turns 18.

The "Age of Consent" has good intentions behind it, but it has its problems.


In FL, age of consent is 16 as long as the older partner is 24 or younger, then it gets pushed up to 18. I think that's a smart way to do it.

On the topic at hand, I think fantasies are fine as long as they stay fantasies. It's when people don't have a proper mental separation between fantasy and reality that it becomes a problem. That said, anyone who doesn't realize deviant sexual fantasies are supposed to stay underground is an idiot.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6157

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:36 pm Reply with quote
linlinchan wrote:
one of the letters wrote:
As an aside, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe that "age of consent" laws are a well-intentioned, but misguided attempt to protect our youth. The age at which a person is capable of making his or her own decisions regarding sex varies between people, and these laws are an attempt at "better safe than sorry" legislation. These laws take away the rights of those who are underage and mature beyond their age to choose their sexual behavior.


The thing that disturbs me to no end about this particular arguement is that it can ONLY be seen as something which would benefit child preditors and not CHILDREN, were the age of consent to be radically dropped.

Why? Because this age of consent law does not say that a 10-year-old child cannot have sex. The law states that a 10-year-old cannot have sex with AN ADULT. :S


What about a 16 year old who wants to have sex with her 18 year old boyfriend? Legally, she can't regardless of how mature she is. If her parents don't like her boyfriend and catch them in the act, guess who gets to go to jail?
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linlinchan



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:44 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
linlinchan wrote:
one of the letters wrote:
As an aside, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe that "age of consent" laws are a well-intentioned, but misguided attempt to protect our youth. The age at which a person is capable of making his or her own decisions regarding sex varies between people, and these laws are an attempt at "better safe than sorry" legislation. These laws take away the rights of those who are underage and mature beyond their age to choose their sexual behavior.


The thing that disturbs me to no end about this particular arguement is that it can ONLY be seen as something which would benefit child preditors and not CHILDREN, were the age of consent to be radically dropped.

Why? Because this age of consent law does not say that a 10-year-old child cannot have sex. The law states that a 10-year-old cannot have sex with AN ADULT. :S


What about a 16 year old who wants to have sex with her 18 year old boyfriend? Legally, she can't regardless of how mature she is. If her parents don't like her boyfriend and catch them in the act, guess who gets to go to jail?


Not everywhere: http://www.avert.org/​aofconsent.​htm

Additionally, in case you can't tell from my example, I am not talking about 16 year olds.
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Cauchy



Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:08 pm Reply with quote
Lolicon isn't hurting anyone. No real girls or boys were harmed in the making of the product. So what's the legal problem? You can have moral problems with it, but that's not a sufficiently good reason to outright ban it.

And the "slippery slope" argument is crap. You say that lolicon leads to the viewing of actual child porn. But people who watch hentai with rape in them don't then go and find videos of girls getting raped, and they don't start raping people. People who watch anime with murder don't suddenly try to find videos showing people really being killed, and they don't go out and start killing people. Just because it's convenient for you to lump lolicon lovers and pedophiles in the same category doesn't mean that it's an accurate portrayal of the situation.

For the record, I like lolicon, and I don't like child porn. It's not the age that does it for me (in fact, I'd prefer them over 18), but when you're 6'5" every girl is small. Lolicon material is the only stuff that ends up getting the guy-to-girl proportions right.

I agree that it's dumb to make it public that you enjoy something that, in the eyes of the general population, is very close to something illegal. But at the same time, it's hardly fair to ostracize those people because you want to appear "better" than them. That's like picking on the nerds in high school, only you feel you have some sort of "justification" for doing it now.

And lastly, it was asked "Why bother defending it?" Why bother defending anything that's legal to do? Why bother protecting freedom of speech? People speak out against "morally right" things all the time. We should just let them get arrested, right? And those damn flag-burners. I sure don't want to be associated with anyone who desecrates in protest the symbol of our nation, so we better ostracize all of them and see if we can make it illegal, First Amendment be damned.
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Pleroma



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Eromanga island

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:19 pm Reply with quote
Whoa, some real eloquence in the first letter in particular. I really think we better try to steer clear of repeating the last 30 page shitstorm so lets try and analyze some of the other arguments made here.

Quote:
So what you're saying is that we shouldn't be down on lolicon because it isn't real and it's not the same as photographs of the same things happening to real kids


I would REALLY like to see Zac actually address the rape porn comparison. The two are practically the same as they are fictionalized depictions of crimes so if you are behemently against one you shouold by all accounts be as behemently against the other.

Quote:
Second, consider that the people who post these inflammatory statements in online forums, such as the one you quoted, can usually be sorted into two categories: newbies and rebels.


Quote:
That's sorta my question. Why bother defending it? Why even bother being so public about it? We get it, they think 8-year olds are totally hot, gotcha. Is it so hard to just keep it to themselves? Why does the whole world have to know about it?


Good definition and very good explanation. If I may I would like ty add that the reason why these people do not just stay in their corner and hope nobody finds out as some people think they should is that they do not see this fetich as anything to be ashamed exactly because they do not equate it to real CP. Now you may talk all you want about subconcious paralels and what not, but they would not that same subconcious make people wary of proclaiming themselves loli fans?

So basicly you have a subculture that genuinely sees nothing wrong with that they like as they do not relate it to its criminal counterpart and hence obviously become annoyed when they are insulted over it as would any other group.

Quote:

As an aside, and this is just my own opinion, but I believe that "age of consent" laws are a well-intentioned, but misguided attempt to protect our youth.


Absolutely true, but really not very germane since we are talking about (I assume) prepubescent children. I think a fair guideline for age of consent is biological maturity since its a reasonable assumption that a child not physically ready for sex should not be making decisons about it.

However situations such as the one recently featured on Dateline where an 18 year old got hmm serviced by a quite willing 15 year old at a paty is serving time as a child molestor is quite francly a horrible travesty. Even the jury didn't want to convict but they were forced to by the unscrupulous prosecutor.

Nobody will argue that a 15 or 14 year old going to see some 40 year old stranger at a motel is stupid (its stupid at any age) but if she made the decision it should be legal. Ditto if she stripped on a webcam, the guy on the receiving end is just a damn smooth operator, not a criminal.

Lastly, considering that anime has been fairly popular for a while now why is it that no pedophile angle media story has yet made its way to national news? An hour or two online would yield any sensationalist scumbag plenty of material and yet nobody seems to be interested in doing so. I am assuming that as someone said it is not gonna happen until they can link anime to a major crime, however if and when the happens no amount of self-censoring is gonna help silence things when the media and opportunist politicians are out for blood. The medium will however surely survive just as music, film, TV and videogames have survived media attacks over the years as long as the fans are willing to take a stand and tell the ignorant to STFU.
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