Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-08-04]
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Shirt
Posts: 5 |
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First, let it be said that I have never watched a lolicon anime, nor have I seen any lolicon manga/pictures (at least not intentionally). With that said, I feel that you intentionally chose people who held extremely similar opinions to you and the only dissenting opinion you chose was one that had something controversial with which you could disagree with him on. Essentially, the opinion you have put forth (and many others) is that lolicon is a bad trend in anime because it has the potential to taint the public's opinion of anime fans and also that lolicon is bad because it is one step away from pedophilia.
I agree with you on your first point - the increase in lolicon fans and their increasing tendency to be loud about their interest could spell disaster for the anime community as a whole. However, the fact that an individual enjoys lolicon does not automatically indicate that they are a pedophile or that they would/do enjoy actual child pornography. Kiddie porn is real, it shows actual kids engaging in sexually related acts. Lolicon is completely fake; a drawing of cartoon characters engaging in sexually related acts. At this point you are saying, "This is a terrible argument - just because it is fake doesn't mean that it isn't similar and that liking lolicon could lead to liking real child porn." But let me remind you, most animes depict situations that do not or should not happen in real life. For example, take Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, all of them are extremely popular series which have loads of fans in both Japan and America (and of course, tons of other countries). Now, these three series all promote violence. The main characters all solve situations through fighting typically, not through discussion or compromise or anything else; just fighting. Does this mean that all of those fans who watch these shows are extremely likely to go punch (or slice) other people to solve their problems? Maybe if they are younger children (which would do it with or without these shows), but not most people. Some people enjoy tentacle-oriented hentai, does this mean that they will soon go abduct beautiful women and subject them to rape by tentacles? Doubtful. The point I'm getting at is: "Why are lolicon fans extremely likely to be pedophiles (in your opinion), yet anime fans who enjoy other types of non-lolicon anime aren't likely to go out and act out the things in those animes?" It seems to me to be a double standard. I understand that you do not like or understand lolicon, and I am with you on that. But I don't think it's fair to lolicon fans to say that they are most likely pedophiles while you would find it absurd if I said you are a violent maniac (assuming you watch violent anime, which you might not, so insert your favorite type of anime here :P). Sorry for the horrible formatting of this post. Last edited by Shirt on Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:37 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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molloaggie
 Posts: 578 Location: Texas |
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Some of my friends would "justify" their lusting after Chi saying that she was a robot and therefore not a child, and simply ignore the fact that was the face and the innocence of a child. And in Cardcaptors, Li's crush was later explained away as simply attraction to the same kind of magic. However, they never really explained Madison's (Sakura's cousin in the English version) weird obsession with her cousin. I let my kids watch some of the Japanese version and my daughter looked at me and asked what was wrong with Madison. Oh yes, she knew something was "funny". I bought the rest on the edited vhs. These relationships that CLAMP wrote into the storyline were a far cry from the playground crushes that usually accompany elementary age characters. Then there was the doujinshi...way too much. The executives in Japan saw that these people were excited about cutesy elementary age little girls in fluffly dresses. The next step is the obvious one, the same step that Zac is complaining about, little girl shows aimed at adult men. And I just reversed PantsGoblin's argument in that last sentence for him. He blames the lack of acceptance on the media's brainwashing but I blame the media's brainwashing on the acceptance of this. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Or just bondage porn in general, which is just as bad if not worse than just rape. And lets not forget bestiality porn. Animals are incapable of giving consent therefore any sexual activity with them is rape. And the "Eww gross" factor should be about the same as child rape. |
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PantsGoblin
 SubscriberEncyclopedia Editor  Posts: 2969 Location: L.A. |
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Very true. Honestly it looks like this arguement is going to turn out the way it did before. I'd rather not go through it again, it was pretty frusturating for me as well as probably most other people. 36 pages and we still haven't gotten anywhere, both sides are unwilling to budge. With that said, I've already expressed my views on all the issues here, so I'm satisfied with that. This is going to be my last post on this thread. |
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Pleroma
 Posts: 443 Location: Eromanga island |
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Umm, Chi is not loli dude. Hell she looks like she is in her late teens. I would say there is nothing even remotely "wrong" with lusting after her since she has the body of a fairly developed female. As far as CCS, yes Clamp threw in a lot of fetishes in there, from Tomoyo's interest in Sakura, to various characters attraction to family members and mych older people (which the horrid remix Cardcaptors butchered until nothing made any sense at all.) But This is one of the things that makes the show stand out and not really something to criticize it for in my opinion.
Thats why I said use biological development as a guideline. Determine in a scientific manner the average age of biological sexual maturity and let that be the age of consent (13 is my guess, but I don't have the data.) And for the large age gaps do not charge individuals if there is no evidence of outright coercion in the relationship. There is no sale being made here, so you can't really argue false pretenses. The younger party is fuly aware that its about sex and if for whatever reason they find the age difference acceptable its their choice. Now should this person allege rape or coercion/blackmail then we can get on with the criminal process. But the way our laws are now, there are simply too many situations when two conseting sexually mature people doing what they chose to can very easily land one of them in jail. I think that is very wrong, from any point of view. EDIT: was posting this before the site went down  I agree with PantsGoblin and wouldn't touch any of the points discussed last time around with 10ft pole.
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Wolverine Princess
 Posts: 1100 |
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Chi isn't a child. She may not be emotionally mature, but if you just saw a picture of her without knowing a thing about Chobits you'd probably assume she was sixteen or seventeen years old. Chi was created to look like a fully-developed teenage girl. It's been a while since I've read the series, but if we're going by the date of her creation she'd be about three years old or so which would technically make her a child, so in that case you'd be correct. If Chi hadn't lost her data that made her act her appropriate age, I'm sure you wouldn't bat an eye at your friend's crush on her. By looks alone, she's about six years to old to be a loli. |
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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I think that biological and psychological development should be taken into account, ie. completion of puberty and adolescence. Sexual maturity (max. gonadal development) is at approx age 14-16. Completion of adolescenceis also needed for the person to mature to the point to make the proper decisions on their own. Either way, 13 is too young imo. Therefore, imo, the age of sexual consent laws are actually pretty reasonable. |
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shirokiryuu
Posts: 714 Location: Northern California (SF Bay Area) |
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 wait, didn't we experience around 36 pages of the acceptible definition of pedophilia?
i guess we still haven't reached a consensus on this either |
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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Do you seriously think that most thirteen year olds are fully mature and capable of making life changing decisions like when to become sexually active with an adult (or even someone their own age for that matter)? Aside from that "guideline" completely ignoring the fact that most boys (and a good number of girls) are far from fully developed at that point, it disregards the person's psychological development, which is more important since most people mature physically before they do mentally. |
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daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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What is this nonsense about Chii not resembling a child? She looks and acts just like a young child in so many ways, and yet she gets into multiple adult situations without being able to fully comprehend what's going on. That almost sounds a bit like a soft-loli title to me.
In fact, you'll find vaguely (and not-so-vaguely) loli scenes in many mainstream anime series and movies. I've probably watched around one hundred mainstream anime titles and it's surprisingly rare to go a whole movie or season without so much as one even slightly loli-oriented scene or spoof. It can be as simple as just using a specific 'camera angle' but it's there more often than not. The fact that the creators call some characters robots or aliens or whatever else they can think of doesn't really change the fact that they look (and sometimes act) just like little kids being placed in adult situations. The question I have is this. Do you think most loli-fans were always loli-fans from the beginning, or do you think they started out like any other anime fan only to eventually devleop an interest in loli content simply through exposure? |
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candeh
 Posts: 17 Location: Orange County, CA |
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I don't think this is an example that you proponents of lolicon want to latch on to. In "A meta-analysis of the published research on the effects of pornography", a book published based on a collection of research papers presented at the International Congress on the Changing Family and Child Development in 1997, it was demonstrated that there is a strong relationship between exposure to rape pornography and positive attitudes toward rape. This meta-analysis is a current standard in deviance research. By the way, Pleroma, the word you are looking for is "vehemently". |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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^ And yet it is legal. That is exactly the point we are making. It's a discusting act and doing it in real life is a crime and would land you in jail, but it's fine in porn since it isn't real. No one is actually being raped, so there is nothing wrong (legally) with watching it and having a fetish for it. Lolicon is no different. There is no actual child, so no one is actually being harmed. So what's wrong with someone beating off to it if that's what turns them on?
Guess what else is legal? Adults pretending to be underage kids in porn. So are non-nude child models in very sensual poses that obviously cater to pedophiles.
Acts like, yes, looks like... not really. She appears to be in her early teens at the youngest. Last edited by HitokiriShadow on Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hagakure|returns
Posts: 407 |
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Did anybody ever see that NBC Dateline special about online predator that lure underage (12 year old) girls for sex? They did a sting operation and caught a bunch of them in one particular area only. The excuse of some of these criminal when they caugh were really stupid such as "Oh I came to warn the girls to stay away from strangers". One guy even brought his little son (and he's a family man). Scary, it will definitely make you think twice.
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Maybe lolicon isn't criticized over in Japan much because they probably don't have the problems that we have over here as much, which is a very large number of pedos who hide their past in another state and try to be your kids babysitter. However juvenile crimes is on the rise in Japan. As for Chii, whatever it was she was doing cannot be considered loli because even with all the sexual content in the situations of the story, there was never any sexual encounters. If even a scene, but I did not see any. You can't put Chii in the loli category.
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ichido reichan
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Lolicon: equals to Lolita complex from a famous novel (Lolita) that means to display the crazyness and creativiness of characters that are horrific and people are decaying from the inside and at the end all the characters die from direct actions of their behaviors, the hollywood versions turned all this into something sexy and Lolicon was actually just a fixation for japanese old men to look at japanese schoolgirls in a sexual mature way and nothing else, now the creators went the next step and did this stupid thing...You know how evil this thing is!!!! destroying the innocence of a little boy/girl? do you know these things are already happening? forget the mangas, forget the anime? do you know the reality of how evil these things are? all you guys that like this stuff can live all these fantasies but reality is really harsh but is happening, they are children for god sake's, do you like these anime? and manga? is just pornography to have a pastime but if you gonna enjoy this, keep it fake and keep it away from anything that can make anyone hurt by this.
Lolita wasnt meant to be sexy, actually she was 11 when he met the guy and she was just a child with no sexual innuendo that can atract somebody of natural sexuality, her name was "Dolores haze" meaning "painful dreams" and the author is russian, so he depicted many realities that he saw in his own country, the idea of russian women and japanese is the same, so if the japanese people is going to exploit all this for selling more manga and anime, then we hit a point that (as fans) we will be look at disgusting weirdoes and Im not going to give them the reason to do so. Sex with children? and then what? with animals, with cars and trucks, how about kitchen appliances and finally they gonna make a manga with people cloning themsleves and having sex with their own clones (literally doing yourself...) How many japanese stupid names will come out of all this genre (Pedos? for me that is "farts" in spanish, name that I would gladly call the people that enjoys this) and if you think you are edgy enough of enjoying this kind of entertainment, how low are you willing to sink your morality and your persona for the sake of giving more money to the people that thinks that they can make an image out of it. |
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