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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:14 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
@ ikc - exactly. We are in the realm of opinion, so questions of objective right and wrong do not apply.


Well no, that's not really what I'm saying. I think we can talk about anime with some degree of objectivity. Of course, without a doubt, we all see anime through a very subjective lens that can radically alter how we feel about it. Things appeal differently to different people and so will different anime. Still, not all opinions are equally right. Some opinions are indeed wrong. To paraphrase dtm42, there are still writing conventions that are very important no matter what. Things like internal consistency and logic, narrative strength, the clarity of the themes, the curve of the character arcs, those sorts of thing. And certainly even an opinion that is ultimately a matter of subjective taste can be either more or less substantial (if not outright right or wrong) by virtue of what supports it.

That said, more than anything else, I just think this whole discussion of of objectivity versus subjectivity is a red herring. Look, it doesn't really matter how we quantify it. Sure, we can say "It's subjective so its not right or wrong". But we don't need to. If instead we say "It's objective so one of us is wrong" that's just fine too. We still really don't need to be at each others throats. I have an opinion about an objective matter. Somebody else has a different opinion. So fine. No big deal. Evidently one of us is wrong. And that's okay. I think its them that is wrong. They think it's me. No big deal. We don't need to retreat into this safe, subjective place where nobody is wrong. We can just go ahead and disagree. Disagreeing is okay.

To put it another way, the problem isn't the belief that opinions are objectively right or wrong. The problem is the view that your opinion is the one that is unquestionably objectively right. If you want to think opinions are objectively right and wrong, that's fine. But just consider that this means you might also be the one who is objectively wrong as well. We can hold that there is an objective truth without trumping up our own belief about what that truth is to an infallible level. It's only when you do that that you end up acting like your view is obvious and that everyone is stupid for not arriving at the same conclusion. And above all else, don't be rude to people just because you think they're wrong about some minor thing. It's stupid and petty. Thinking views are objectively true or false though? That in itself is a non-issue.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:25 am Reply with quote
ikc - Opinions can never be OBJECTIVELY right or wrong. Only FACTS can be objectively (i.e. measurably) right or wrong. You fall into the same trap that dtm42 falls into every time.

Opinions can be wise or foolish. They can be precise or imprecise. They can be supported by knowledge or they can be based on ignorance. But they cannot be right or wrong the way an element governed by empirical data is either right or wrong.

It's true that there is a general consensus on what constitutes good and bad writing. You list some of the things we tend to use when JUDGING what constitutes good or bad writing. However, consensus agreement is not the same thing as empirical evidence.

The sun rises in the East. That is not an opinion. That is an empirically established statement of fact.

Shakespeare is a genius. That is not a fact. That is an opinion. A very well-grounded and supported consensus opinion among experts and general audiences that has stood the test of time (so far). It is still not a fact the way the sun rising in the East is a fact.

That is part of dtm42's problem. He actually believes you can say, "X sucks" and that constitutes an OBJECTIVE truth. This is very sloppy thinking. "X sucks" may be a wildly popular consensus OPINION, but by definition it can never be an OBJECTIVE truth.

But yes, this line of discussion isn't particularly germane to the issue at hand which is dtm42's contention that it was clear from the first two episodes that GD had no potential at all and his cowardly refusal to support this contention with specific examples from the show.


Last edited by Blood- on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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danilo07



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:11 am Reply with quote
Objectively correct opinion is in my mind just another word for checklist mentality.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:35 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Opinions can be wise or foolish.


How so? If they're completely subjective and not grounded in any sort of objective truth, what deems one foolish to hold and another wise? It seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too by declaring that some opinions can't be more wrong but they can be more foolish.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:02 am Reply with quote
Your question lets me know you are still having difficulty distinguishing the difference between a fact and an opinion.

I say the sun rises in the West. I am wrong.

You say the sun rises in the East. You are right. We can establish that you are correct by empirical evidence.

I say that getting sunburnt, while painful and potentially harmful to my health, is worthwhile because tans always make people look better. My opinion is foolish.

You say that whether or not tans make people look better is in the eye of the beholder, but regardless, pain and possible health risks indicate that people should not deliberately get sunburnt. Your opinion is wise.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I say that getting sunburnt, while painful and potentially harmful to my health, is worthwhile because tans always make people look better. My opinion is foolish.

You say that whether or not tans make people look better is in the eye of the beholder, but regardless, pain and possible health risks indicate that people should not deliberately get sunburnt. Your opinion is wise.


Yes, and why is that? You're just restating that [X] opinion is foolish and [Y] opinion is wise without elaborating on what actually makes one wise and one foolish. To do so you'll need to appeal to an objective principle that valuing beauty over health is bad. And if not, you'll need to accept that whether beauty is more valuable than health is completely subjective and therefore neither choice can itself be said to be wiser or more foolish. You can't have it both ways.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:59 am Reply with quote
Laughing Even though your statement above doesn't really make any sense, you are inadvertently pointing up the difference between a fact and an opinion.

You say - bizarrely - that if I refer to one opinion as wise and another as foolish that I have to appeal to an objective principle. That makes zero sense. The whole point of an opinion is that it is a subjective statement. There is no objective measurement of what is wise or foolish. It would be literally impossible for there to be an "objective principle" that values beauty over health. Why? Because objective matters require that there be a concrete measurement/observation.

If we want to determine the length of a piece of string, we use a ruler. That ruler reveals the length. That length is not an opinion. It is a fact. A ruler is not a subjective tool. It is an objective tool.

If we want to determine whether a show is good or bad, there is no objective tool to use that produces a fact in that context. We can discuss a show and, using a commonly agreed upon set of subjective criteria, we can ascertain if - in our opinion - the show is good or bad, but we are never dealing in the realm of facts. A commonly agreed upon set of subjective criteria is not a ruler in the literal sense. It is not an objective tool the way a ruler is. It is a subjective tool we use to form an opinion.
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:24 pm Reply with quote
Episode Last:

That ending was even worse than I expected, which I didn't think possible. They may as well have had a wizard walk in and solve everything.
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v1cious



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:35 pm Reply with quote
Damn, what a horrible ending. If you can even call it one.
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danilo07



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:35 pm Reply with quote
Final episode:
Well that was an unsurprisingly bad episode,though I do wonder how it feels to be a paid killer accusing a little girl of beating him up.
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ikillchicken
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Laughing Even though your statement above doesn't really make any sense, you are inadvertently pointing up the difference between a fact and an opinion.


Hey Blood, how about you stop being condescending eh? I'm sorry I don't agree with your opinion about this matter but this thread really doesn't have room for two dtm42s.

Quote:
You say - bizarrely - that if I refer to one opinion as wise and another as foolish that I have to appeal to an objective principle. That makes zero sense. The whole point of an opinion is that it is a subjective statement.


Hence the reason your view makes no sense. On the one hand you claim that foolishness absolutely cannot be based on objective principle. And that's fine. Despite your repeated insistence to the contrary, I understand the distinction you're drawing. But my issue is with your simultaneous claim that an opinion can be wise or be foolish. That is what makes no sense given your view. If foolishness is subjective clearly an opinion cannot be foolish. To be definitively foolish or not foolish you would have to appeal to something objective that makes it so. But as you've said, that is impossible. Hence, an opinion cannot be foolish, just as it cannot be right. It's rightness or foolishness is subjective.

Like I said, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't think that opinions are entirely subjective and can't be right or wrong but then turn about and still declare certain opinions you don't like "foolish". That boat has sailed.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:57 pm Reply with quote
ikc - to me you seem lost in some semantic swamp. I genuinely don't understand what point you are trying to make and I believe this is because you are confused and uncertain in your own mind.

Quote:
If foolishness is subjective clearly an opinion cannot be foolish.


That statement makes no sense. My point is that judgments on what is wise or what is foolish obviously fall into the subjective realm. There is no Wisdom-o-meter or Fooish-atron that can OBJECTIVELY measure those things.

My whole point with respect to matters of opinion is that they are hopelessly, by-definition subjective. Nothing that is hopelessly, by-definition subjective can ever be considered a fact. Do you honestly disagree with that? If you do, why? Please explain your reasoning.

Your insistence that my view somehow de facto means that there needs to be an "appeal" to something objective just doesn't compute on any level.

I doubt anybody else cares about this topic, but if someone has been reading these posts, please let me know if you understand what ikc is trying to say. Maybe I am missing something that is obvious to others.
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phia_one



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:24 pm Reply with quote
Holy rushed ending Batman! Just...
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Spastic Minnow
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:55 pm Reply with quote
so proper resolution rests on someone greenlighting a sequel to one of the worst executed shows I've ever bothered finishing.

Given more time and a competent script doctor, this could have been a good story. As it stands, it only works as a cautionary tale of over-ambition and limited talent.
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DuskyPredator
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:45 am Reply with quote
Episode 11 (final)

Good thing it is over, and yes it was pretty terrible. In the episode it tried to show that a courtroom has to follow proper proceedings, but kind of threw it out the window a bit in being too theatrical. Like did the spoiler[mother really have to play along in the court case as she did and claiming that Hozuki was bad, and then say she believes in them just because she is family]? Did mr spoiler[space pirate have to play dead] for most of the case? Did the spoiler[father have to enter the courtroom in a way that would have actually gotten him thrown out]?

Regardless it looks like the real spoiler[hero was the mother for actually setting up the trap], which if done better could have been a great twist. And there probably could have been a better job done to making it feel more conclusive that they were able to get a new source of energy, but for some reason it ended with "spoiler[lets go to Japan]". That just did not work.

Overall I rate the series probably somewhere between not a total waste of time, but also wishing I did something else. I think it evens out to being Weak, I had a negative opinion of it earlier on, and although some parts got some attention, it really did not overcome to being worth the plot holes, obvious manipulation and frustration.
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