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Hey, Answerman! [2006-08-18]


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RDespair



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 228
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:20 pm Reply with quote
Before everyone starts up on the rant, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the Super Gals question and answer. There's no way that I would have gone out and bought the series myself out of the blue (looked too girly to me), but a friend of mine who I trust told me that it was really good and so when he decided to marathon it, I showed up and lo and behold, he was right. Very funny series with one of the best English dubs I've had the pleasure of listening to. I can see how it wasn't very popular though since just looking at it, I never would have guessed that it was as funny as it turned out to be.
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Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:25 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Pretty sure I'm being trolled with this one but I'll go ahead and print it anyway.

how to get in the anime business

That's it. That's the whole letter.

Excuse me while I bang my head against the wall.


Don't do that, you won't be able to write anymore. Smile

On a side note, he may have a better chance of breaking in the Biz, by banging his/her head into the wall, than if not.
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Ranma824



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 453

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:47 pm Reply with quote
???? - I don't get the winning caption....I must be missing something...

As far as the rant, I pretty much agree except for one point: The industry is not losing money from the "fansub apologists", at least most of the hardcore ones.

Why? Because these people wouldn't pay for anime in the first place. If there was no internet/technology, these people would STILL find some way to watch what they want, and not give a dime to the people who deserve it. So no matter the will or the way, the "hardcore" fansubbers are a non-factor; since their moms' never taught them common courtesy.

If anyone was going to do a study, they would have to throw out the very left factors (Hardcore fansubbers) and the very right factors (people who don't watch fansubs at all); and focus on everyone else inbetween.
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LordOfPie



Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:47 pm Reply with quote
Oh look, it's everyone's favorite anti-piracy argument: if you didn't have access to it for free, how much more would you have bought? The problem with that one is that for many of us in the middle group, it would likely have meant the same amount or less. I generally attempt to buy the shows I really enjoyed when I saw the fansubs and things I missed or passed on when they were hot shit on the Internet, but I'll admit there are shows I've seen and somewhat enjoyed and never purchased on DVD when they became available in the United States (although I tend to purge said series from my posession frequently anyway). But I don't think I'd have necessarily bought more of these shows had I not seen the fansubs; I've given shows I'd otherwise never have tried a shot because I had a chance to see a few episodes of it for free. Sometimes they're good and sometimes I shouldn't have bothered. But generally what's more important when it comes to deciding which shows to spend my limited student's entertainment budget on, the quality of the show is what's really important, not whether or not I've already seen it and feel I should "support the industry" or whatever excuses people like to make for downloading something.

It doesn't make it right, but I think the moral crusaders should remember that often people who would otherwise download something may choose to just not see it at all if they don't have that avenue.

Of course, sometimes I think I should have watched a certain show fansubbed first. Then I might've found out Last Exile had a very disappointing and rather questionably written last episode, and I could've saved myself the $100 or so I spent on the box set. A bad ending can sour an entire series for me.


Last edited by LordOfPie on Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Rant wrote:
However, as my last point above illustrates, I can’t really prove that. Why? Because no one has ever done a single statistically and scientifically valid study of the subject. Until someone does a valid study of the buying habits of regular downloaders, or sorts out exactly how much of the buzz around new shows is genuinely attributable to fansubs, or does a statistically broad study of the sales of different types of shows and can compare the figures for shows that were aggressively fansubbed against those that weren’t, no one can say with any certainty that fansubs do or do not help boost commercial sales.
Two comments:
1) In response to the Italicized part, the problem is that doing a statistical study of the effect of fansubs is very difficult if not impossible because of the difficulty to get a large enough subject pool that is not biased and is uniform to begin with. Once the subject has been exposed to the any media related to the series, their decision as to "Buy/Not Buy" has already been partially changed.

You are basically asking for the result of a the following experiment:
A)If you take a person, split them, have one be exposed to the series and one buy the series blind.
B) Before they begin, ask the fansub one "would you have bought this series blind based on the insert". The blind buyer obviously bought the series so the question is his opinion after seeing it.
C) When they finish ask the blind one of them the question "If you had seen the series before you bought it, would you have still bought it" and the other "Having seen the series, would you buy it".
D) If the buyer answers no, this would be a lost sale based on fansubs. If the buyer answers yes, this would have been no effect. If the fansub watcher answers no both times, no effect. If the fansub watcher answers yes, then no: lost sale. If the fansub watcher answers no then yes, gained sale.

This is the only way to actually study the effect of subs on the series. The problem with doing this is you need a large enough sample that is not biased in anyway and therein lies the problem.* (Notice that it is more likely in outcome to lose a sale or have no effect, but all is not equal so in probabilistic terms, these do not have equal probability! This is especially true across multiple series.)

*A large enough sample should in theory provide the result, but the problem is measuring an individual's bias in the decision is almost impossible for the researcher. By bias, I mean the ease at which they are willing to pay for a DVD without being fully aware of the entire contents. i.e. Buying on a good review.

2) In response to the bold part, the companies make claims in either direction and never provide evidence to support those claims. Certain companies claim that fansubs only hurt their titles and certain ones claim that they both hurt and help. Some just dodge the question and say it's illegal. I am not trying to imply that the companies are evil or anything like that by not telling us. I am saying that the companies have come up with methods to come to conclusions, but will not reveal their methods to be judged on a scientific basis.
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sionEmber



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:51 pm Reply with quote
Fantastic ANSWERMAN this week!!! But the rant reminds me of someone I know...This "someone" believes all anime should be free. His argument boils down to this, "Why should anyone pay for something meant to go on television? I don't have to pay to see [insert tv show], so I'm doing no wrong." It pisses me off when I use my hard earned money to purchase anime, and then he comes around with comments like "Wow, Full Metal Alchemist? You got the first volume? I already have the entire series on my computer, but I haven't watched it in awhile. Besides, that show finished like almost 2 years ago...man you're wwwwaaayyyyyy behind." WHAT A SCUMBAG!!!! Mad
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Latitude 42.6324N, Longitude 71.3918W

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:10 am Reply with quote
I like how the rant guy ends with the idea that he can't prove either way what effect fansubbing has on the industry. It's refreshing to see someone acknowledge that a fence of ambiguity exists in a controversial (and potentially moral/ethical) topic, especially after all the stupid lolicon arguing where many people (including myself) were unable to do so.
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God Gundam



Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 404

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:12 am Reply with quote
Nice banner, Answerman. Wink

I just got back from an advance screening. AWESOME film.

But that's for another forum.
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1812
Location: Tekkoshocon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:19 am Reply with quote
I wonder if there were any "Not tonight, dear. I have a headache." captions.

Ranma824 wrote:
???? - I don't get the winning caption....I must be missing something...


PREGNANT pause. It's a figure of speech.

Ranma824 wrote:
As far as the rant, I pretty much agree except for one point: The industry is not losing money from the "fansub apologists", at least most of the hardcore ones.

Why? Because these people wouldn't pay for anime in the first place. If there was no internet/technology, these people would STILL find some way to watch what they want, and not give a dime to the people who deserve it. So no matter the will or the way, the "hardcore" fansubbers are a non-factor; since their moms' never taught them common courtesy.


I disagree. Before the internet became mainstream, you sent for VHS's and Laser Discs and whatnot, which actually did cost because of the postage and materials. It was sort of like Chess by Mail, but more one-way.

Answerman wrote:
[Super GALS is] a show that's aimed squarely at teenage Japanese girls, which is admittedly a pretty small market in the US.


Very Happy I like this quote. It makes me laugh because of just how true it is.
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Pop-Art Samurai



Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:43 am Reply with quote
I don't know if anybody here may have read this before now, but I found it awhile back and think it has some interesting points.

Piracy is Good?

There're one or two things that are slightly out of date in it, but it's still a good read.
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Yoda117



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 389

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:02 am Reply with quote
Dargonxtc wrote:
Quote:
Pretty sure I'm being trolled with this one but I'll go ahead and print it anyway.

how to get in the anime business

That's it. That's the whole letter.

Excuse me while I bang my head against the wall.


Don't do that, you won't be able to write anymore. Smile

On a side note, he may have a better chance of breaking in the Biz, by banging his/her head into the wall, than if not.


Hell, some fool got into the entertainment industry for licking a PSP... and eventually did a minor VO.

If those are the standards for entry, maybe you might want to rethink your choice.

Answerman, I love you for dealing with people like this (but in the manly, comfortable with myself kinda way Wink ). I probably would have clubbed someone like a baby seal by now if I were you.
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Malintex Terek
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:19 am Reply with quote
"Opening a can of worms"? How about, "hitting a beehive with a stick"?

...

Yeah, after reading through the entire rant, it's remarkably pedestrian, and not really worth my time. However, I already started to address some things (since withdrawn), so here's a small nit-pick:

Otaku Rant wrote:

The best anyone can realistically claim for fansubs is that they may well be one source among many that contribute to the buzz surrounding new shows within hardcore fan circles. Among the less dedicated casual anime fans (who represent the real reason behind the breakout success of shows like FMA and Samurai Champloo)


Wrong. Anyone sorted into the "anime" fandom is automatically
classified into a niche market. The people who rake in the popularity of SC and FMA are cartoon fans attracted to the more mature content.
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halochief_90



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 459
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:26 am Reply with quote
I don't really want to get involved in the rant, but what I would like to see is someone whose with fansubbing write a well-written rant good enough to be posted on Answerman. That'd be the day! Laughing
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championferret



Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 547

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:37 am Reply with quote
God Gundam wrote:
Nice banner, Answerman. Wink

I just got back from an advance screening. AWESOME film.

But that's for another forum.


I hope I'm not the only one who is constantly scratching their head at all the number of times anything to do with 'SNAKES ON A PLANE' (I couldnt even type that without laughing at the title) pops up on ANN.
Confused
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Washi_



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:48 am Reply with quote
That is a stupid rant. He bought up pro-fansub arguments that are obviously wrong to begin with, and fails to approach the issue in any kind of depth. I am going to be very critical of his comments, because I value fansubs very highly, and am insulted by this.

I look at it this way: without continued fansubbing the magnitude and activity of the online community would be greatly reduced. Far less people will be exposed to the joys of anime fandom, and will not become big fans who spend a lot of money on DVDs. Every single person I know who continues to buy DVDs also watches fansubs. I personally buy DVDs of the fansubs I've watched (unless the show is terrible in which case it derserves to be pirated). If this buzz around anime that exists on the internet, thanks almost entirely to fansubs, I'd have given up on anime ages ago, and I would certainly not be spending every spare dollar on merchandise.

This rant is an insult to me. Whoever wrote it obviously does not understand that not all of us like to watch our anime years after it's been produced in inconveniant, DRM-laden DVDs. Now, I'm not saying piracy is a good thing, but currently the media industries are at fault for failing to provide an acceptable amount of conveniance compared with the free alternative.

Please also comprehend that not all titles are licensed and released in the US! Furthermore, the US ISN'T THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. Other places don't get the opportunity to buy DVDs, and rely on fansubs to get their anime at all. I have several contacts in this position. They could order over the internet but wait we have goddamn region-locking DRM on our DVDs. Great huh?

"and at the other end of the spectrum are the ...jerks with twisted moral codes who refuse to ever pay for their anime.."

Yes, they are jerks (assuming they are able to buy the DVDs at all), but that is not the fault of fansubbers. Is it the road's fault that we have drink-driving? If there is a problem here, it is not with the fansubbers, it is with those who misuse fansubs. To denounce fansubbing because of one (less prevalant) end of the spectrum is a very simplistic approach. In fact, given his strange bias in this case, it almost seems as if the industry has told him to think this way, because it is positively irrational.

You also have to consider that DVDs are not the only form of merchandise. In Japan most money is made of sales of figures and other merchandise. Many people who watch fansubs buy figures from the shows they watch, which is even more directly beneficial to the studios who make the anime.

There is a lot he neglected to mention in coming to his conclusion.
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