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Zac wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

Wow, I thought that America had gotten over the "ballet is girly" stereotype after Mikail Baryshnikov. Shocked

For those who want to see him in action, look here.

So, if you are looking for more "girly" anime than Princess Tutu, here's my picks.

Cardcaptor Sakura : Her cute outfits, moe appearance screams girly in the U.S.

Full Moon: Cute shinigami in human and animal form and cute Mitsuki obsessing about her love interest set to J-pop music.

Uh, no, American hasn't "gotten over" the fact that Ballet is girly because it is a uniquely feminine art. Baryshnikov is a very talented man, but that doesn't suddenly mean that ballet is masculine. It isn't.

Also, nobody is saying that being "girly" is a bad thing, and for whatever reason you seem hell-bent on... what, exactly? Proving to us that Princess Tutu isn't a girly show? Are you just having a really hard time understanding that? It is. It's also very good. Sailor Moon is an extremely girly show. It also happens to be pretty good.

I'm not sure what your issue is but I don't think you've been paying attention to what people have actually been saying about the show. Also, Card Captor Sakura has a distinctly masculine appeal to it, thanks to the Syaoran Li character and the numerous action sequences. It's still very much a feminine show and it is aimed at girls, but there are elements in it specificially designed to appeal to boys. Princess Tutu has no such thing.

Actually, I have been paying attention. My dance segment example proves that ballet isn't necessarily feminine either. Princess Tutu is a children's title aimed at a primarily female population, but it also had fight sequences too. CCS anime may have a masculine appeal to it, but it also has a feminine appeal in the U.S.

The term "girly" has negative connotations which is why some of the posters have said stuff about their masculinity when viewing this title.

There's an obvious bias about ballet here. Take a gander at this ballet company's roster and history. Some people should be more open-minded.

hikaru004 wrote:

Actually, I have been paying attention. My dance segment example proves that ballet isn't necessarily feminine either. Princess Tutu is a children's title aimed at a primarily female population, but it also had fight sequences too. CCS anime may have a masculine appeal to it, but it also has a feminine appeal in the U.S.

The term "girly" has negative connotations which is why some of the posters have said stuff about their masculinity when viewing this title.

There's an obvious bias about ballet here. Take a gander at this ballet company's roster and history. Some people should be more open-minded.

Ahiru's class (at BEST, ie, when they include the advanced class) has all of TWO boys in it, one of whom is INCREDIBLY effeminate (a point which has yet to be disputed). OTOH, it has something like 30 girls. MOST of the people Tutu talks to or confronts are female. Heck, there are like... what FIVE named boys in her entire SCHOOL?

spoiler[CCS & Full Moon are set in Tokyo. Tutu is set in a fairy tale FANTASY land] (I dunno if that's spoiler or not but figured I'd be safe)

CCS has "battles", Tutu has DANCE. You can argue that the "battles" in CCS are fantastical and girl centric, but they are "battles" Tutu has DANCE. (I'll grant here that Full Moon has SINGING, in that lovely Robotech victory kinda way)

CCS and Full Moon have male characters that you could put in girls' clothes and while most would be "pretty boys" they'd STILL be boys in girls' clothes. Fakir could be that kinda guy in Tutu, but Mytho would BE a girl. (c'mon)

Gimme ANY "girly anime" cliche/stereotype and it's IN Tutu, somewhere. Tutu IS a girly show, period. At best you've named titles that approach it's girlyness (IMO, Full Moon (which I also liked) is the only one that comes close) but Princess Tutu is a show made for girls, period. CCS was "editted" to be pitched to a unisex or even maybe a "boy" audience. I dare you to tell me ANY way you could edit Tutu and get the same effect (aside from taking one sequence with Fakir, for a 5 min (if that) animated short)

** The above said, again, Princess Tutu is a good show. I know someone who loves it if ONLY for it's take on storytelling. You don't hafta be a girl to LIKE Princess Tutu, but it is very girly and I think people should be aware of that or some dude expecting something else ISN'T gonna watch past episode 1.

hikaru004 wrote:

Actually, I have been paying attention. My dance segment example proves that ballet isn't necessarily feminine either. Princess Tutu is a children's title aimed at a primarily female population, but it also had fight sequences too. CCS anime may have a masculine appeal to it, but it also has a feminine appeal in the U.S.

The term "girly" has negative connotations which is why some of the posters have said stuff about their masculinity when viewing this title.

There's an obvious bias about ballet here. Take a gander at this ballet company's roster and history. Some people should be more open-minded.

That there are men in your dance company's roster does not mean that suddenly ballet is a masculine or even gender-neutral art form. It is very distinctly feminine, and that's part of ballet's appeal.

You're confusing the issue here quite a lot, and I'm not even really sure what your point is. For us to point to Princess Tutu and say that this has an overwhelmingly feminine tone and aim is not incorrect or "close-minded", it's a fact. For us to say the same about ballet is also a fact; male dancers are often considered to be feminine themselves, in fact.

The term "girly" is obnoxious, yes, and it might have a somewhat negative connotation, but I'm not sure why you take such great offense to it and frankly none of your points really make much sense, since you're trying - I think - to prove (based mostly on anecdotal, unrelated evidence) that somehow ballet is masculine or gender-neutral when it isn't, and no gender studies professor, student or rational-minded person would agree with you on that. That you're making these points to prove to us that Princess Tutu is not a feminine show is... patently ridiculous.

Ah! Someone has thrown yet another log on this smoldering smoky fire that is the fansubbing debate.. Our BBC has just recently did a enlightening report with a debate between two major players. This link to it also has a download (legally) of the full debate with an opportunity to send in e-mails in response.

The single-dvd-vs-boxset debate is an example of the philosophy used by distributors that I disagree with. Dubbing method is another. So is the number of episodes on a disc. I frequently burn my downloaded shows onto discs so I can watch them on television. For a 24-minute show, I can get nine episodes on a disc. That means a 26-episode show can be done on 3 discs, and a 39-episode show on 5.

I could go on, but the point is that distributors frequently take action that is good for them and bad for fans, or good for casual fans and bad for niche fans.

That is rarely the case with fansubbers. Fansubbers may take actions that are good for niche fans and bad for casual fans, but almost never the other way around. And they fansub, mostly, not for money or markets but for credit, and just to have the subtitled version in existence, and to make people happy. They are good Samaritans. They do what everyone preaches we should all do: help our fellows, give what you can, don't take more than you need.

How is it in my interest as a niche fan to contribute to the distributors, who are acting against me in favor of themselves and the casual fans, and to spurn the fansubbers, who are acting in favor of me and of themselves? Furthermore, why is it that when people say that they download fansubs because they can't afford it, they are told to make lifestyle changes and forego anime, but when distributors sell shorter discs at more opportune times, they are never told to make lifestyle changes and forego excess revenue? Or that casual fans are never told to buy sooner so that niche fans can enjoy lower prices?

I think that the niche fans are the driving force in the anime industry, much more so than the casuals or the distributors. I think that because of that, we should be treated with respect and have our preferences yielded to. Instead, we are told that since anime as a whole would be worse without us, we must never waver in our support nor alter our acquisition habits to our benefit. I for one reject that proposition and take whatever action I can to get the anime I want.

Steroid wrote:

For a 24-minute show, I can get nine episodes on a disc. That means a 26-episode show can be done on 3 discs, and a 39-episode show on 5.

I can agree with this, considering that shows such as stargate, which are 20-22 42 minute episodes can be fit onto 5/6 discs. However-

Quote:

I could go on, but the point is that distributors frequently take action that is good for them and bad for fans, or good for casual fans and bad for niche fans.

In regards to singles, unfortunantly given the price of licenses and the size of the actual anime market (which is no where near as big as the anime fanbase, remember that), selling via singles is one of the key ways to make money back, depending on how much the series costs etc.

Quote:

That is rarely the case with fansubbers. Fansubbers may take actions that are good for niche fans and bad for casual fans, but almost never the other way around. And they fansub, mostly, not for money or markets but for credit, and just to have the subtitled version in existence, and to make people happy. They are good Samaritans. They do what everyone preaches we should all do: help our fellows, give what you can, don't take more than you need.

Except when they work specifically for ego-stroking, which I kinda really can't abide by. Now there are a lot of good fansubbers, I agree, but there's also a lot of speed-releases and such. Also remember that fansubbers have relativley more freedom than American distributors because they've got no rules to play by but their own.

Quote:

How is it in my interest as a niche fan to contribute to the distributors, who are acting against me in favor of themselves and the casual fans, and to spurn the fansubbers, who are acting in favor of me and of themselves? Furthermore, why is it that when people say that they download fansubs because they can't afford it, they are told to make lifestyle changes and forego anime, but when distributors sell shorter discs at more opportune times, they are never told to make lifestyle changes and forego excess revenue? Or that casual fans are never told to buy sooner so that niche fans can enjoy lower prices?

I wouldn't say they're acting against you, it's just catering for everyone, especially in a diverse-in-opinion-on-what-is-right kind of fanbase as Anime in the US, is quite frankly impossible. (subtitle preferences, in regards to suffixes etc, are a good example of this). I've never once seen (not that I dont think it'd happen, but I do think it's retarded) someone telling a person to make lifestyle changes for Anime, but certianly given Anime is a luxury item, if they cannot afford it and obviously have something they'd rather contribute their money to, then it's not like they really have a right to it in the first place.

Quote:

I think that the niche fans are the driving force in the anime industry, much more so than the casuals or the distributors. I think that because of that, we should be treated with respect and have our preferences yielded to. Instead, we are told that since anime as a whole would be worse without us, we must never waver in our support nor alter our acquisition habits to our benefit. I for one reject that proposition and take whatever action I can to get the anime I want.

And you gotta do what you gotta do. Way back when, niche fans were the only fans, but since the advent of a number of factors (AS, etc), there are a considerable ammount more in the way of 'casual' fans than there are of 'niche' fans. In some cases, niche fans are essential to a title bombing or not (Nearly everything from Animeigo, Princess Tutu, other examples probably have been given), but for a larger title (FMA, Shamploo, Hellsing, even shows like Big O which made the leap from niche to casual interests) costs so much that it really does fall in to the hands of not just those who are already anime enthusiasts, but those who really only like that Anime title (or maybe a few others, but not someone who really experiments with the category).

The only person, realistically, who can dictate what you can or cannot do is ultimatly yourself (I'd find it rare you'd be the subject of a law suit anytime well... ever, unless you're really unlucky), but it should be known that without actual financial support on any side of the market, the ammount of revenue going into new projects will shrink, and quality and quantity will invariably shrink, because remember, while Anime distributors so make money from DVDs sold in the US, that money is once again put back in to Japan to create and license more shows.

Ah, I was wondering when Steroid was going to chime in. He doesn't normally miss arguments like this.

Anyway, about Princess Tutu: that it's an especially "girly" series is beyond debate. Anyone who's seen at least a couple of episodes of it and doesn't acknowledge that is fooling themselves. Not only is it a magical girl series - which are rarely aimed at any audience other than girls - but I'm convinced that the ballet theme is at least partly intended to appeal to the little ballerina that finds its way into the heart of many an elementary school girl. (Boys who, for at least a while, dream of dancing in ballet at that age are very rare by comparison.) One also only has to look at how the whole series is really about matters of the heart or how its conflict resolutions play out: the vast majority of them are solved by word and/or dancing rather than conventional fights. Tutu, even though she has some action scenes, never takes a single violent action in the whole series. You'll never see that from a lead hero in a series even partly aimed at boys, whether the hero is male or female.

Any guy who skips watching Princess Tutu just because it's "girly" is doing themselves a great disservice, though. Even guys who don't normally care for "girly" stuff in general or "girly" anime series in particular can get enthralled with this one. I did, and I normally hate magical girl and other overly-girly series.

Steventheeunuch wrote:

Steroid wrote:

For a 24-minute show, I can get nine episodes on a disc. That means a 26-episode show can be done on 3 discs, and a 39-episode show on 5.

I can agree with this, considering that shows such as stargate, which are 20-22 42 minute episodes can be fit onto 5/6 discs. However-

If you actually look at commercial anime DVDs, once you hit 6 episodes and especially with 7, you start seeing blocking and other video issues. This is not because of a difference in encoding between anime studios and hollywood. This is because this is the technical limit for 1 DVD quality video stream, subtitles and 2 audio streams per episode on a DVD. Therefore, the maximum possible is 5 and maybe 6 in some cases.

Steroid wrote:

I think that the niche fans are the driving force in the anime industry, much more so than the casuals or the distributors.

Past surveys have shown that people who watch dubs are the majority buyers (4/5ths). This is especially true with shows that make it to TV.

Aaarghhh! Why, when I decide to reply to a post does it, after I've logged in and spent 15 minutes typing in a nice reasoned response, why does the submit button throw me back to a login prompt without posting? Happens at least half the time.

bayoab wrote:

If you actually look at commercial anime DVDs, once you hit 6 episodes and especially with 7, you start seeing blocking and other video issues. This is not because of a difference in encoding between anime studios and hollywood. This is because this is the technical limit for 1 DVD quality video stream, subtitles and 2 audio streams per episode on a DVD. Therefore, the maximum possible is 5 and maybe 6 in some cases.

But if, as Steventhe is saying, they can get 4 42-minute episodes on a disc, it stands to reason that at least 8 21 minute episodes could be. And if I can make a 9-episode, dual-audio, softsubbed disc on my little home pc with discs from Best Buy, the companies should be able to do so on their equipment.

Steroid wrote:

I think that the niche fans are the driving force in the anime industry, much more so than the casuals or the distributors.

Past surveys have shown that people who watch dubs are the majority buyers (4/5ths). This is especially true with shows that make it to TV.[/quote]
But of those 4/5, how many also watch subs? And of those, how many buy as soon as the anime come out, and not based on sales?

Steroid wrote:

bayoab wrote:

If you actually look at commercial anime DVDs, once you hit 6 episodes and especially with 7, you start seeing blocking and other video issues. This is not because of a difference in encoding between anime studios and hollywood. This is because this is the technical limit for 1 DVD quality video stream, subtitles and 2 audio streams per episode on a DVD. Therefore, the maximum possible is 5 and maybe 6 in some cases.

But if, as Steventhe is saying, they can get 4 42-minute episodes on a disc, it stands to reason that at least 8 21 minute episodes could be. And if I can make a 9-episode, dual-audio, softsubbed disc on my little home pc with discs from Best Buy, the companies should be able to do so on their equipment.

But keep in mind that the extra audio track takes up a good chunk of space. In addition, the fansubs are usually going to have lower quality video and audio.

Steroid wrote:

bayoab wrote:

If you actually look at commercial anime DVDs, once you hit 6 episodes and especially with 7, you start seeing blocking and other video issues. This is not because of a difference in encoding between anime studios and hollywood. This is because this is the technical limit for 1 DVD quality video stream, subtitles and 2 audio streams per episode on a DVD. Therefore, the maximum possible is 5 and maybe 6 in some cases.

But if, as Steventhe is saying, they can get 4 42-minute episodes on a disc, it stands to reason that at least 8 21 minute episodes could be. And if I can make a 9-episode, dual-audio, softsubbed disc on my little home pc with discs from Best Buy, the companies should be able to do so on their equipment.

Live action video and animation compress very differently is part of the reason. Futurama has 4-5 episodes/disc. The Simpsons has 5-6 episodes/disc. Pinky and the Brain has 5-6 episodes/disc. (These all have multiple audio tracks on some episodes.)

And the reason you can get 9 episodes is because you are going from a lower quality product and encoding it with more information. It will at best look like the original thing you started out with! As long as you get a higher bitrate than the original, it will look the same. You aren't going from a higher quality product in every form (bitrate, resolution, quality) and reducing it. This is very simple compression math.

Steroid wrote:

But of those 4/5, how many also watch subs? And of those, how many buy as soon as the anime come out, and not based on sales?

It doesn't matter when they buy it. A sale is a sale. And what do you mean "not based on sales"?

When I set it up in my DVD writer program, one episode's worth of video takes between 350 and 400 MB of space. Let's use the higher figure. One track of audio for one episode takes up ~70 MB. A subtitle stream is negligible. Which means a regular, dual-audio episode should take 540 MB. Nine of those should take 4860 MB, or just under what should fit on a standard, retail DVD-R. I think a professional DVD should have a little larger size, but even allowing for quality, I don't see why eight can't go on a disc. Even if you want to take something extreme like Excel Saga, which has 4 audio tracks and 2 subtitles for ADV's little Pop-up Video thing, each one takes 680 MB, which puts 7 episodes at 4760 MB.

But whatever the numbers, the point is that they are not maximizing disc space, which I believe costs buyers more in the long run.

Edit: my starting file on those is 8/9 in dimension, and compressed. The end quality is, on my 30" TV, indistinguishable from a professional disc as fas as I can see.

Well I just popped in my Rahxephon volume 1 thinpack, and it has five episodes, and each one of the videos is 1050 mb. And that doesn't include the 5.1 track, or the 2.0 original dub track, or any of the extras. In fact in total, it says it uses up 6.75 GB of space.

Now I am looking at one of the store bought 4.7Gb DVD-R and it says up too 120 minutes of video. Now I assume that means just raw video at DVD Quality, with no menus, no sound. So that 540 Mb an episode seems a little shabby to me. I could almost fit my Five episodes of Rahxephon on there at 1050mb, but it would be without sound or menues or anything for that matter.

Edit:
I was trying to find one with 6 episodes that I have, Volume 5 of Angelic Layer, has 6 episodes. The last three are at the standard 1050, and the first 2 are at 1008, and 1026 repectively. And that doesn't include any sound or anything. Also note Volume 5 has zero extras, and a very simple menu.

I haven't looked at filesize or such, but wasn't Kare Kano the heaviest overlay anime known to fan? The first DVD for that has 6 episodes, and yet all successive ones are 4. I realize we get more episodes per DVD than the Japanese, but don't tell me its a format issue. At minimum, if that's the "reason" then I would expect to see more eps per release vol. with the next upgrade in format, but realistically I expect the count to stay about the same. I think the count is more for a combination of "return on investment"/profit AND "speedy release", more than anything else. ie. They can get 4 episodes out quicker than they can get 10 out.

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