Forum - View topicAre U.S cartoons made in is it Japan still anime?
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ninjor956 Posts: 8 Location: Iraq |
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| anime is the short term use for the english word animation so technically it is. But it is mostly used to refer to animation from japanese orgin. Yet I really don't know where to place something like witchblade(anima?)
I personally usually use the term animation when it comes to keeping my ground(especially when someone tells me I am watching cartoons). Btw the second season of the boondocks will feature animation done by madhouse(X, Cardcaptors Final fantasy last order & currently working on death note) |
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Azathrael Posts: 744 |
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This must be at least my third time posting on an "is this still anime?" thread. Good thing I have new stuff to post each time.
If you don't know who he is, then don't comment on the quote as if some bystander spit it out because he had nothing better to do. I personally don't think that it has to be made in Japan by Japanese people for it to be called "anime". If some American company full of American artists decided to copy the exact style of what I call "anime", then I'll call their work "anime" also. But definitions of words change with time, and at this moment there is no American company full of American artists who are copying the "anime" style. Same goes for any other country. So I think it's pretty safe to say that Ueno Toshiya's definition works, just until it needs to be changed. |
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TAKAVAR Posts: 138 Location: Canada |
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umm, i'm not a animation expert, just a fan, i didn't mean that to be a definition. i'll try to explain a bit more on my idea of anime, but its nothing complete, i was hopeing that some one would build up on it. ok, now comes the long post! first of all anime is a subcategory of animation, they both come from the same source and certenly western animation and anime have many points in common, and also they do borrow elements from each other so the line between them might blur at a point. second is: saying anime has to be made in japan or include japanese culture in it, is just unreasenable. Its like saying japanese can't produce western style cartoons, because they are japanese. I'll do a comparison of two animations, one which lies more to the western style of animation and the other which is more towards anime. I wanna point out the fact that "FF:Spirits within" had a realistic approach to its visual style. It was based on how to make everything seem more "REAL". from character designs with a lot of effort on them to make them look human as much as possible with realistic movements. Enviromets used insane amount of details. The camera moved as if it was moved by a real person holding a camera or other means of recording in real life. you rarely find something that is impossible to do in this movie. Now compare it to Final Fantasy: Advent Children. you have insane body movements, stylizied figures, for the heck of looking better. and it just doesn't stop defying laws of physics. When i showed spirits within to a non anime fan who never watches anything expect live action, he didn't have any complaints and said he liked it. then i showed him Advent Children, he constantly complained about how dumb it was for them to do those move and asking WTF was this and that. also he kept critisizing the dialog and said it was too cheesy, or why the characters are just too open to say anything. but at the end, its funny that he liked it much more than spirits within. no, i'm not saying all anime is action, i'm just telling that this is something that can be done in anime, and is almost never done in western animations. i don't have other material to speak about it, so bottom line: YES, anime can be developed out side of japan, because its a style of ANIMATION, not a style of ANIMATOR! and no, there isn't any anime developed in north amercia that i know of. but some certenly have used its visual style to a very limmited extend. (its not only the anotomy, there is lots of other stuff that also counts, thats why after looking for 20 seconds at "avatar" animation it can be easily identified that is not completely anime and is just a failed attempt.) |
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| Nagisa Moderator  Posts: 5991 |
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First you say that anime is a part of animation, which is true. But here, you're implying that anime is something removed from and wholly different from animation. If anime is a part of animation—the part of it that comes from Japanese production houses—then there's nothing unreasonable about saying that anime is an exclusively Japanese (or Japanese co-production) phenomenon.
You claim styles without defining styles. How about defining where you draw your lines before expecting us to follow examples of them.
You accuse me of being unreasonable saying that foreign studios can't make Japanese animation, but at least my definition doesn't restrict by style or genre. Western studios make action cartoons, and Japan makes comedy anime. Your definition is falling flat by being far too restrictive when it's not being far too vague.
You keep saying "there's more to it," but you're not defining what that "more" is. That's a failure of your definition. Also, who said I was calling anime a "style?" It's not a style, it's a..."nationality" of animation, so to speak. In order to make themselves seem slick and cool, early fans of Japanese animation abroad adopted the "anime" name as a buzzword to describe what they were watching and to keep people from just saying they liked cartoons. But outside of identifying animation that hailed from Japan, there's never really been a definitive stylistic trait that could be universally applied to all anime. Maria-sama ga Miteru doesn't have action, Zipang doesn't have the giant doe eyes and small mouths and radical hairstyles, Naruto wasn't made for adult audiences, Negima isn't overwhelmingly thought-provoking, and Aria doesn't have any overt sexuality. All of those traits have been used in an attempt to define anime, but none of them apply nearly as well as simply animation that comes from Japanese animation studios. |
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KyuuA4 Posts: 1158 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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| One thing we cannot deny -- there is a distinction between an "anime" and a "cartoon". Furthermore, polls do show that people do prefer an "anime" over a "cartoon". From a market perspective, a product of lesser preference is a lesser product.
With "cartoon" being the lesser product, it can be improved by using techniques and styles used in "anime". In fact, with current trends in anime popularity, it is the best way for the "cartoon" industry to survive. It's a cycle of influence. Let me remind people that Anime (as we know today) could not have been possible without American influence. |
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| dormcat Encyclopedia Editor  Posts: 7428 Location: Hsinchu City, Taiwan, ROC |
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What an America-centered a-hole, thinking the Earth would stop spinning without your Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.  |
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| KyuuA4 Posts: 1158 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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But it's true. Look up History of Anime. I even read it up in some writings by Trish Ledoux. From a Google search: History of Anime Article: A Capsule History of Anime http://www.awn.com/ by Fred Patten (writer, Animenation Magazine)
I neither sprouted a lie nor an embellishment. It's fact - because it happened. Besides, if we further go into the History of Japan, the Japanese have been notable in copying techiniques from other lands such as China, Europe, and America.
It makes sense. After Japan was defeated after WW2 followed by American occupation, the Japanese managed to acquire tremendous aid and influence from the Americans. After all, look at how they enjoy baseball.
And here comes Disney's influence to Japanese art -- and inevitably animation. This is where the large eyes and emphasis on cuteness begins. After all, how can anyone dislike Thumper? 
Another thing, before European/American influence, Japanese art was modeled after themselves or maybe even the Chinese. Prior to the 1900's, it would be extremely rare to find Japanese art using large eyes and other anime features. As a comparator, here is Ryo-Ohki. 
Granted, I doubt Thumper and Ryo-Ohki has any sort of direct connection; but a few features are similar, particularly the large feet and the emphasis on cuteness. Last edited by KyuuA4 on Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lapis Lazuli Lolita Posts: 189 Location: The N-Field |
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| Image leeching should be a punishable offense.
[EDIT: As should quoting the leeched images. Please do not quote pictures. Thanks. -TK] |
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AirCooledMan_2006 Posts: 594 Location: Delaware, U.S. |
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Of course it does. In a very wide usage, "anime" refers to ALL cartoons. In the conventional rhetoric, though, it refers to the Japanese stuff. It depends on what rhetoric you use. EDIT: And don't forget, early anime was influenced by early Disney animation. |
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cardcaptormanda Posts: 235 Location: Erie, Pennsylvania, USA |
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That's kind of harsh, isn't it?  Aren't you sort of blowing a simple remark about the history of animation a little out of proportion, and interpreting his comment to mean something it really doesn't?
I've read that very same thing in quite a few different sources. He's probably just repeating what he's read as well. If you believe he's wrong, you only have to say so and explain why; name-calling isn't very constructive, and I doubt it will help him see how he's wrong. I'm also interested in what ways his statement is incorrect, since I've been lead to believe the same thing, and hate being misinformed. |
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| adonais Posts: 302 |
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Ok, well, fair enough. Let me just remind you that America (as we know today) could not have been possible without European influence (we colonized the damn place, and much have we regretted it since). So if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C and therefore Europe was ultimately responsible for the development of Japanese anime today? I'd never a-thunk it. |
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| KyuuA4 Posts: 1158 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Yup. It's a natural cycle; but it does swing back and forth. After all, it took Europe an extra century or so to fully adopt Democracy, when government systems like monarchies and totalitarianism were ultimately replaced (one way or the other). Cultural influence is a two-way street. The way I see it -- the only real way for an "American Anime" (see Google: American Anime) to thrive is to do just that -- thrive. Although, that is a big IF. Trick question: What's better? Japanese live action TV or American live action TV. FYI - when I saw Live Action Sailor Moon - I was making direct comparisons with Batman from 1960. Simply, the acting and the effects looked rather cheap. Using a stuffed cat? Oh boy. |
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SalarymanJoe Posts: 434 Location: Marietta, GA, USA |
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This is absolutely true. In the 1980s animation was outsourced to Japan because of labor costs. Look at shows like Thundercats (as Steven pointed out earlier), Silverhawks, Transformers, and GI Joe. Who would consider these anime? They were, after all, all animated in Japan. Despite my affections for these series, I consider none of them anime. What defines anime then? In the American definition of the word, or how its used in America, the country of origin is important. But I'm more strict than that it has to be produced "in Japan"; the culture of that production and its intended audience play heavily on that, too. All of the above series I mentioned weren't made for Japanese audiences (though, Transformers was exported to Japan and they created their own spin-offs) - they were made for Americans. In the 1970s, there was a Japanese animated production based on the Tom Sawyer novel, as well as Heidi: Girl of the Alps, directed by none other than Miyazaki Hayao; I consider both of these to be anime because they are Japanese productions intended for a Japanese audience not because of perceived style. However, how the Japanese use the word and how it is used by those outside of Japan differs greatly. The Japanese lump everything in under "anime", regardless of national origin. This is why Tom and Jerry ranked on Top 100 Anime charts run by TV Asahi on a couple occaisions over the past four years. So, the question now is this: do we use the Japanese definition of the word, or the American definition/interpretation? I think its possible to do both but it entirely depends on whom you are talking to. If I am talking to Japanese people, shows I watched while growing up like Silverhawks and GI Joe get included into anime, as well as talking about my facination with Mobile Suit Gundam. If it is a "strictly English" conversation, then the American interpretation should be implied, thus limiting the list to Japanese productions for Japanese audiences.
Just a quick note about this - A lot of people cite the appearence of Japanese animation resembling American (or other Western) animation productions beginning after the Second World War. I would disagree; looking at productions like Momotaro - Umi no Shimpei from 1945 (during the war), the appearence is very much like an American/Western production. While a post-war economy certainly brought about more productions, I think that the appearence of the animation was highly reflective not just of American culture taken to Japan after the war, but also from the skill sets of animators and designers who developed those skills before and during the war. Recognizable differences in Japanese animation and American animation, as far as style is concerned, did not really take hold until the 1960s. Drew "Suiko" Sutton http://akibaren.blogspot.com |
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| KyuuA4 Posts: 1158 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Hmm, interesting, and it makes sense as Western influence into Japan was already high by this point - ever since the Meiji era.
True. Yet, being on the American side, I just can't help but discern a difference. Then again, nothing wrong with adopting the Japanese meaning. Does this mean, "cartoon" is null and void?
Neither is the Big O. Maybe even IGPX. However, they both carry the "anime" label. This nullifies the "made for audience" point - as it does not matter who a series is catered for. Plus, if I am not mistaken, Trigun prospered more in America than in Japan.
Interesting. I did not know that. 
Thus, this further demonstrates it is all a matter of taste.
Hmm... I wonder. Aside from our IT jobs -- are animation jobs going to China and India?
Hmmm. Just thinking about Transformers and G.I.Joe. They seem to be two storylines that Shonen Jump would produce (if they had thought of it first).
Two groups of characters at "war" or fighting each other -- but almost nobody dies. It's what I just call Conflict without Consequence. Just look at Bleach and DBZ. I haven't' watched Naruto nor One-Piece; but I'm sure the same formula is there.
Thus, "animation from Japan" is the American definition of anime. === Well, if anyone doesn't mind, I shall then follow along with the Japanese definition. Animation is Animation. It is my right to choose a definition to follow; and that's the Word. Thus, any argument discerning differences in animation styles is moot. |
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| SalarymanJoe Posts: 434 Location: Marietta, GA, USA |
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Not necessarily; more people understand the word 'cartoon' than they do 'anime', even though there are different connotations to each word. Have you seen fanboys and -girls go into a tailspin when someone calls 'anime' a cartoon?
I know what you're inferring, but I believe this is factually incorrect. Big O premeired in Japan in 1998. It wasn't until after it was introduced in the United States that demand for a second piece, along with some American capital, did Sunrise feel Big O II was worth it. However, as a faithful continuation from the first series, one will argue that it was still made with Japanese viewers in mind. It also happened to appeal to American fans of the series as well. While creating programming with Japanese viewers in mind, I don't think it excludes foreigners who can enjoy the programming as well. IGPX is a different case. It was a co-production, with near simultaneous releases in the US (and Canada?) and Japan. As a co-production, if it wanted to succeed in either area, it would have to appeal to viewers in those respective areas, to be a total success, it would have to succeed in both. Since it was a co-production, then I still think it can fit into my 'anime' definition. A better example of what you might be looking for is Oban Star Racers; I believe an entirely French-production; released first in France, then North America, and then to Japan. It often gets the 'anime' label pressed onto it, but I wouldn't consider it as such. That doesn't mean its a bad show or that I won't enjoy it, just that it doesn't meet my criteria. And a quick note on Trigun: it's not that its necessarily more popular in the US, but it has been able to maintain a residual popularity better in the US than in Japan. From what I remember, it was fairly popular there, but with literally hundreds of new anime premeiring every year, very few anime maintain high levels of popularity over time. Cowboy Bebop, which no one will deny its success in America, was popular in Japan when it aired and satalite re-runs found an audience to make the movie, but since 2001 it has faded from the public memory again. Much like Trigun, CowBe has maintained a high level of popularity in the US.
IT jobs are going overseas for different reasons. Some because of payscale, some for operational reasons, and others for the sheer fact that there aren't enough "Americans" graduating through CS/IS/InfoSec, etc. degree programs, or any combination of the three. Animation is a little different. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, prominent American animations such as The Simpsons, Family Guy, and Futurama are all or nearly all animated in Korea. This is true for 2-D animations but most 3-D animations are done in the US. Japan has also been sending low-level animations to Korea, as well, since the 1980s.
While I may disagree with your "Conflict without Consequence" theory, I can understand where you are coming from. Transformers, I can definately see as a Japanese production, Silverhawks and Thundercats would take me a bit longer just because of some of the premises of the series. GI Joe takes a lot more brain-power for me to see that as a Japanese production.
That's fine; you're a fan of animation. Drew "Suiko" Sutton http://akibaren.blogspot.com |
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