×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Viz Edits Fullmetal Alchemist


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Deacon Blues



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 381
Location: Albuquerque, NM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:50 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Guess what? No consumers = no profit.

Piss off the Customer, and you face the repercussions. Viz should know already know that. I mean it's one thing to change Zoro to Zolo because of a possible copyright dispute. It's another to make that much of a graphical edit in FMA case and not let that slide.


So they've managed to piss off what... a dozen fans. Har har, they won't be missing your business.

You see, the underlying problem that fans are overlooking with this is that the edit was perfectly legit. The Japanese parent could have said "okay, we want to change this part" and by damn that's what happens. It's happened before and it will keep happening. Grow up, shut up and get over it. All of you little pissants think that you control Viz because you are a consumer of the said company. You aren't. You merely provide revenue for them and nothing more. You aren't in a position to start dictating what you WANT when you won't get it no matter how hard you try. And all of your wonderful posting about "downloading scanlations" as a form of protest does nothing but provide proof that you are doing something illegal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MorwenLaicoriel



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 1617
Location: Colorado
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:19 am Reply with quote
Mm, I think I haven't been very clear.

I'm not saying that I support the edit of the manga, or that I wouldn't buy FMA if they had kept the cross in the manga. The cross doesn't really offend me that much...at all. Anime hyper I'm just saying that I can understand WHY it's offensive, and understand why Viz would edit it--and that the edit doesn't offend me enough to make me stop supporting the manga, either.

I don't think Viz is a mustache-curling villian here--just a business with concerns. Call me naive, but they're not changing anything in the story--and, in fact, the symbolism is still THERE, he's still hanging as if he was on a cross. So I really don't think it's worth getting that upset over it. Now, if they had, say, edited out all of Ed's references to his beliefs on religion, THEN I'd be upset--that'd be taking away a central part of the story, and his character.

Also, I wasn't saying someone is automatically a savior if they're hung on a cross. Rolling Eyes What I was saying is, the cross is generally used as a *symbol* for that in american culture, and that's the knee-jerk reaction. It doesn't really have that symbolism at all in Japan, from what I've heard it's the "innocent martyr" connotation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Isaaru



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 375
Location: the oppressed colonies in outer space
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:36 am Reply with quote
Walkabout wrote:
uberfrosch wrote:
I'm bemused by the edit, not offended. I have no intention of boycotting Viz: I don't care that much. But--

MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
I mean, you wouldn't, say, show a hero wearing a swatzika, right?


I just have to throw this out there... I take it you don't read Blade of the Immortal?


I'm glad someone said this.


The swastika in Blade of the Immortal has a entirely different meaning. For starters its rotated in a diffrent direction. the character is named after this symbol, and its place in the story has a lot more to do with the overall meaning.

So what ig Greed is crucified or hangs on a rock? Is FMA about people getting cruciffied? Does Greed die for your sins? Greed is unconsious, so whats the point of crucifying him? The point of a crucificition is that your awake and having your arms outstetched for a long time IS REALLY FREAKIN PAINFUL to a normal human being!!!!! It's shape is simply a convienant and easy assembled way of doing this in roman times.

FMA isnt exactly highbrow material here folks. Whether its shaped like a cross is meaningless to the overall story. Except for the shock value to a bunch of immature people that feel some sort of pride in thier "edgy" material. We miss nothing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tascar



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:53 am Reply with quote
Isaaru wrote:
FMA isnt exactly highbrow material here folks. Whether its shaped like a cross is meaningless to the overall story. Except for the shock value to a bunch of immature people that feel some sort of pride in thier "edgy" material. We miss nothing.

I find this conclusion in itself fairly offensive. Your implication is that people should not care that FMA is censored because it is not highbrow material and because you feel it is meaningless to the overall story.

First of all, I am in agreement with you that FMA is not highbrow material. I personally do not like the manga or the anime myself. However, I don't see how you can justify the censorship of art that you do not consider highbrow enough. Who is to decide what is highbrow and what is not? How can one even adequately classify between highbrow and lowbrow?

As for your second statement, I somehow doubt that the cross image was put into the comic out of some attempt at shock value. Many posters here have already pointed out that the cross simply has a different connotation here as it does in Japan. I fail to see how you conclude that this due to some attempt to be "edgy" and provide "shock value."

Finally, you say that the cross removal is justified because it is not important to the overall story. As with what I said about highbrow/lowbrow, I fail to see how one is to properly judge that. Countless films throughout the years have been mutilated and censored under similiar pretenses, to remove offending stuff without changing the message of the film, and all have pretty much been little more than buthered works that failed to reflect the message of the original film.

As I said, I have little interest in FMA. I do not pretend to know the political and social motivations behind Viz's decisions to censor. However, I am surprised that there are so many apologists here that will shamelessly defend the same type of censorship that lead to not only the mutilation of anime and manga over the years but of all art and is against the very nature of freedom of speech and expression.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skaly



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:11 am Reply with quote
I'm in agreement with those who say that the cross imagery is still there, even sans cross. People are just upset that the art was changed, even though the story is still intact.

It's easy for us to say that companies should have the balls to stand up for their products, but if you put yourself in their shoes you'd probably make similar decisions. Unfortunately, anime doesn't belong to just us anymore--it now belongs to the mainstream. Where do you think most of the money comes from?

One possible solution is to have translation/editing notes, not unlike what Del Rey does with their CLAMP books. That way, even if they make a change they could at least tell us why instead of leaving us to discover it on our own and pointing accusing fingers at them. They shouldn't try to hide their alterations, because it makes them look bad, like they're trying to get away with something. I mean, couldn't they just shrink-wrap the thing?

I think most of us understand the pressures they are under to put out a product that won't hamper their putting out more products, so showing us a little understanding in return probably wouldn't hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
MezzoFan



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:12 am Reply with quote
Well, I'm done buying Viz manga. There's a limit to how many times a person will put up with getting burned by a pointless edit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Keonyn
Subscriber



Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:27 am Reply with quote
I'm not fond of edits myself, but this is so minor and insignificant that I could care less and I think some people just get way too anal about these things. The violent and negative nature of the scene is still intact, the edit itself effects nothing.

Now frankly people might gripe and boycott and make other childish gestures as a result of something so petty but in the end I don't blame Viz, such imagery could easily get one easily offended individual riled up and there would be a huge backlash before they know it, a backlash that would easily overshadow any fan whining so it was a safer decision on their part.

You want to blame someone, then blame the people that make it a point to cause the trouble that creates these situations and make it necessary for companies to cover their butts like this. As usual the aggression and whining is misdirected and as usual nothing will be accomplished as a result.


Last edited by Keonyn on Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Carl Horn



Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 90
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:28 am Reply with quote
MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
Part of it is that the cross is a symbol now. I mean, you wouldn't, say, show a hero wearing a swatzika, right? Why? The swatzika originally comes from Hinduism--the Nazis just took it for their own use. I lived in India for a time, and there was swatzikas *everywhere*. It had nothing to do with the nazis at all, it's part of their religion.

But does that mean I would walk around with a swatzika here in america? No. In America, it symbolises the Nazis--not Hinduism. Someone hanging up on the cross is also a symbol--here, it's a statement that the person is a 'savior'. Is it that way in Japan? No. I've heard that it's more of a symbol of an innocent marytr. But that's not quite how it's taken here.


In fact, you would show a hero wearing a swastika--not only is Manji, the hero of the manga Blade of the Immortal, named for it ("manji" is the Japanese word for the Sanskrit "svastika"), he wears it on the back of his robe. Instead of censorship of this symbol, every issue and graphic novel collection of Blade takes the opportunity to educate, with a short article explaining the ancient history of this symbol in Buddhism (and elsewhere) and why its use in the manga has nothing to do with pro-Nazi or anti-Semitic attitudes.

To my mind, it is completely unfair, and arguably itself racist and bigoted, to tell Asian culture that it can no longer use a symbol which was theirs for thousands of years, because a contemptible European movement called Nazism in the twentieth century took it and put it to evil. Instead, again, justice lies in reclamation, in explaining the symbol's larger history and taking the opportunity to teach its use in context among other civilizations. Simple erasure of "offensive" symbols, without any attempt to explain the different and legitimate meanings they might have for others, is not much of an improvement upon the Nazis' own attitudes towards culture.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kolibri



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 712
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:30 am Reply with quote
MorwenLaicoriel wrote:
Part of it is that the cross is a symbol now. I mean, you wouldn't, say, show a hero wearing a swatzika, right?

Well, Viz doesn't.

You do know that in Naruto manga Neji has a swatzika in his forehead, in the Viz release it's changed into a an "x". Mind you, anime made the same change so people don't tend to complain about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dargonxtc



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:32 am Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
I'm not fond of edits myself, but this is so minor and insignificant that I could care less and I think some people just get way too anal about these things. The violent and negative nature of the scene is still intact, the edit itself effects nothing.

Now frankly people might gripe and boycott and make other childish gestures as a result of something so petty but in the end I don't blame them, such imagery could easily get one easily offended individual riled up and there would be a huge backlash before they know it, a backlash that would easily overshadow any fan whining so it was a safer decision on their part.

You want to blame someone, then blame the people that make it a point to cause the trouble that creates these situations and make it necessary for companies to cover their butts like this. As usual the aggression and whining is misdirected and as usual nothing will be accomplished as a result.


I agree with this. Just wanted to say that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:08 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
You do know that in Naruto manga Neji has a swatzika in his forehead, in the Viz release it's changed into a an "x". Mind you, anime made the same change so people don't tend to complain about it.


Any word on what they'll do with Ichigo's Bankai in Bleach yet?

I think the point is, yeah, it could have been much worse, they could edit more, whatever, but they shouldn't edit for content AT ALL. We have a First Ammendment for a reason, and what's the point if the publishers are too cowardly to make use of it?

They wouldn't have lost sales, at least not as many as they lose by marketing themselves as sell-outs to a notoriously picky community, as I bet more manga fans read their books than hardcore Christ-####s that go on the warpath over such things, and as others have pointed out, if there was any controversy, it'd likely lead to increased sales, if anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8458
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:12 pm Reply with quote
Arggghhh.

Look, it doesn't matter how "small" or "insignificant" the edit was in the FMA manga. It was censorship. If you let small little censoring pass, a precedent is set, and further editing will occur, I guarentee it. You cannot let censorship gain any ground.

Why are so few people getting this?!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime My Manga
joel_s95387



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1804
Location: California... The Village Hidden In The Porn
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:32 pm Reply with quote
Isaaru wrote:
So what ig Greed is crucified or hangs on a rock? Is FMA about people getting cruciffied? Does Greed die for your sins? Greed is unconsious, so whats the point of crucifying him? The point of a crucificition is that your awake and having your arms outstetched for a long time IS REALLY FREAKIN PAINFUL to a normal human being!!!!! It's shape is simply a convienant and easy assembled way of doing this in roman times.
Have you read the manga? spoiler[This is the first scene after he is captured by Wrath. After that, he is placed in a giant, lava pit looking thing and slowly burned to death by slowly being lowered into the fire/lava/melted metal/whatever the hell it was.] He wasn't just hanging there and left there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger My Anime My Manga
Keonyn
Subscriber



Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:40 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
They wouldn't have lost sales, at least not as many as they lose by marketing themselves as sell-outs to a notoriously picky community, as I bet more manga fans read their books than hardcore Christ-####s that go on the warpath over such things, and as others have pointed out, if there was any controversy, it'd likely lead to increased sales, if anything.


Because it's the parents that purchase a lot of these for their kids and it's the parents that will see reports or read the stories that will result from a group of people who see it and go up in arms about it. Not to mention the law isn't always cut and dry, first ammendment or not many groups will find a way to file suit regardless just to make a statement, a statement that will ultimately cost Viz a great deal of money just in defense regardless of how little basis the suit would have.

Quote:
Look, it doesn't matter how "small" or "insignificant" the edit was in the FMA manga. It was censorship. If you let small little censoring pass, a precedent is set, and further editing will occur, I guarentee it. You cannot let censorship gain any ground.

Why are so few people getting this?!


Because censorship will always exist. For everyone who whines about it there's another who'll whine if it's not done. Some people aren't so selfish to believe our ideals and our point of view are the only ones out there and if you want people to co-exist happily then you have to meet somewhere in the middle. It sucks, but it could be worse, and the bottom line is no effect from the scene is lost as a result of the change so frankly I could give a rats *** about the edit. Sure, we can whine about the oversensitive people that get offended easily, but others can equally whine about the oversensitive people that blow such a minor thing way out of proportion. You see, in the end you're just like the people that created the problem, it's all just a bunch of oversensitive selfish people that believe their way is the only way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Josh7289



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 1252
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:20 pm Reply with quote
denkigrve wrote:
Josh7289 wrote:
Joe Mello wrote:
Here's the real question: If no one created an article about it, would any of you be complaining? I'm guessing not.

Seriously, you would think that there would be more important things to criticize, especially today.


If no one knew what happened in the '30s and '40s with The Holocaust, would anyone be complaining? I'm guessing not.


That's a whole different level from an edit in a manga. Mass human genocide or an image or two that were edited? Gee let's think about this. Josh you really need to take a breather, and stop posting if you're getting to this type of level. This is a simple edit to avoid a potential issue with people who could raise and issue, and Viz could suffer in their largest market. Children and Teens. They didn't murder Millions of people. Please don't do that again.


I guess you couldn't read my post long enough to see the disclaimer at the end, could you? Just for you, I'll quote myself here:

Josh7289 wrote:
Joe Mello wrote:
Here's the real question: If no one created an article about it, would any of you be complaining? I'm guessing not.

Seriously, you would think that there would be more important things to criticize, especially today.


If no one knew what happened in the '30s and '40s with The Holocaust, would anyone be complaining? I'm guessing not.

Seriously, now that we know what Viz Media did to the manga, we have a right to complain.


By the way, in no way whatsoever was I comparing what happened to the Fullmetal Alchemist manga to The Holocaust. Naturally, this current problem is infinitely smaller than any tragedy on the scale of The Holocaust.


Yeah, now you see it. Before you go ranting on about me again, make sure you read the entirety of my posts.



Anyway, I stopped reading this thread last night, around 10:15 PM EST before I went to bed, and I just checked again now, around 2:15 PM EST, and it's mind-blowing how large it has gotten. I'm pretty much not even going to bother reading any posts since I last posted before I went to bed last night, because I'm sure everyone is just saying the same thing as others in the thread over and over, just using different words.

Really, I'm mad that Viz Media made this edit, but it's even more astounding the reactions people can give. I'll suggest it one more time: everyone who is dissatisfied with this edit, tell Viz Media about it, and maybe they'll change it. It's worth a shot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 10 of 27

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group