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Minimimiau
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 194
Location: somewhere on this planet.
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Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:06 pm
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For me the show in enjoyable, but Matoi and Satsuki better fight nude because their uniforms are so light that are practically nude.
Its entertaining, just for the moment you are watching the episode.
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Kikaioh
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:00 am
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Sylpher3 wrote: | Thanks for the information, I honestly didn’t know the interesting backgrounds of these references.
But still, what’s the point of all of this and why should I as a viewer appreciate it? Sure, the references are cleverly made but as of now, it’s still a matter of themes and references lying loose from each other without a central message or connection (well at least I haven’t noticed it) blending it together into something significant. It’s probably premature to draw a conclusion, but I don’t see how these deeper elements contribute to a meaningful narrative. I’ll just wait and see for now. |
I have very strong hunches about the direction the show is going in, but I don't want to... let the cat out of the bag? maybe is how I'd like to put it (plus, it'd be embarrassing to take a guess when the show hasn't even reached the mid-point yet, and then later find out I was terribly wrong).
But I can give a more general gist of my guesstimations; for as madly dumb and zany as Kill la Kill looks, I think it's much more intelligent and clever than you'd imagine. The themes of fascism and clothing aren't just flashy gimmicks to catch people's attention, but actually run at the heart of what the show is truly about. It's the sort of show that's so weird at first glance that, like Hamlet, you think everything it shows you can be brushed off as mad ravings --- but there's method to the madness. As the series goes on, I think various aspects of the "weirdness" of the show will start making sense... and that people maybe will look back at the early episodes and discover there were questions they ought to have been asking themselves, because the answers were in broad daylight the entire time.
...is my guess anyways. I could be wrong.
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:21 am
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You may or may not like Kill la Kill, but a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring things the show is basically shoving in our faces.
At least, thats the only explanation I can come up with for how utterly clueless some of the commentary about it seems to be.
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Ryu Shoji
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 671
Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:04 am
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musouka wrote: |
Ryu Shoji wrote: | My view on Kill la Kill and fanservice: It has fanservice for everybody. Yes, Ryuko and Satsuki's Kamui suits are ridiculously revealing, but we also have the likes of Aikuro constantly making ridiculous poses and Gamagoori's Goku Uniform's power revolving around BDSM. |
Yeah, those scenes that make it clear that naked men are just funny instead of attractive (unlike naked women!) really open up the show's audience. That's total equality in fanservice, yep yep. |
*Goes to Tumblr*
*Looks up Kill la Kill tag*
*Sees the amount of posts and NSFW fan-art focusing on male characters*
Both sides seem to be enjoying it, so is there really a problem?
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Chagen46
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:30 am
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>All that mansplain'
I think you might want to look at what you wrote.
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vashfanatic
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:05 pm
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I'm still in the process of catching up on old series I missed, so I'm not watching anything current, including this series. I was, however, interested in it because of the team involved, and I so have been trying to follow opinion of it as it goes along with as few spoilers as possible.
My main fear about it is somewhat related to the issue of "objectification." Objectification means treating someone like an object - something to be desired. The opposite is treating someone like a subject - someone with whom you sympathize, identify and/or want to be like. Ideally characters of all sexes are treated as subjects more than objects. Inasmuch as most of us are sexual beings we will sometimes objectify characters we find attractive, but the goal is to keep the balance on the subject side. Otherwise, you might as well watch porn.
Which is where my question comes in: how much is Ryuuko (the main character) treated as a subject? How much is the audience supposed to sympathize/identify/admire her versus simply enjoying watching her for the eye candy? You can objectify someone who's fully clothed (think of all the personality-deprived damsels in distress that litter literature and video games) and you can treat someone in short-shorts and a halter top as a subject (Revy in Black Lagoon is an example).
Why I question the level of subject vs object with Ryuuko is when I hear about how her clothing basically forces itself on her when she doesn't want it to, and it's treated as a joke or as something she should accept or get used to. Apparently some people have found this rather rapey, and I'd like to avoid watching it if that's the case. Humiliation can be made funny - comedies thrive on people being embarrassed - and you can make jokes that involve rape, but if the punchline is "Ha ha they're being assaulted!" I really have say "dude, not funny." What's more, if it is rapey, that would imply to me that the series is leaning too far in the object direction. If you genuinely sympathize with a character you would not find them being assaulted to be funny or something they need to stop fighting against.
So does anyone have any insights or arguments on this point? I really am undecided on whether I want to watch this series, and hearing thoughts of those who've seen what's come out so far would be helpful. Please try to avoid spoilers.
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Fencedude5609
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:24 pm
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vashfanatic wrote: |
So does anyone have any insights or arguments on this point? I really am undecided on whether I want to watch this series, and hearing thoughts of those who've seen what's come out so far would be helpful. Please try to avoid spoilers. |
Its hard to discuss this without spoilers, since its kinda a major issue with Ryuuko and Senketsu's relationship.
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vashfanatic
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:30 pm
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Fencedude5609 wrote: |
vashfanatic wrote: |
So does anyone have any insights or arguments on this point? I really am undecided on whether I want to watch this series, and hearing thoughts of those who've seen what's come out so far would be helpful. Please try to avoid spoilers. |
Its hard to discuss this without spoilers, since its kinda a major issue with Ryuuko and Senketsu's relationship. |
Can you tell me generally how the scenes made you feel and whether or not you feel sympathetic to the characters? I know some of this is subjective, I'm sort of fishing around for multiple views to get an idea of how I may react to it.
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walw6pK4Alo
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:56 pm
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Why not just watch an episode and see for yourself? It's not like you're reading a book. If you really want to see KLK as vile as sexist objectification without value, you can probably force yourself to easily. The show honestly isn't that incredibly deep, it's essentially a "fight of the week" modernized Go Nagai series that's much closer to any of the Cutey Honeys in construction and execution than something like Utena.
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vashfanatic
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3489
Location: Back stateside
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:01 pm
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walw6pK4Alo wrote: | Why not just watch an episode and see for yourself? |
Because I've had the awful rape humor take me by surprise in other series (looking at you, Maria-Holic) and I'd like to know ahead of time what I'm getting myself into. I take it from your snark that you think I'm taking this too seriously, but I know from my own experience that rape humor can really, really bother me, and I want to know how bad it actually is. If you think it's not that bad, just say so.
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walw6pK4Alo
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:06 pm
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I don't see any allusions to rape in the series at all. Maybe a bit of sexual humor since the girls dress down when they get into their battle outfits, but no one's being forced down or sexually violated. If you're so apprehensive to the whole idea of maybe some guys like looking at women wearing skimpy clothes and them being initially embarrassed about it, then do stay away. So no, I don't think it's that bad. It's not bad at all unless you're looking to be offended.
Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 3524
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:06 pm
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vashfanatic wrote: | Can you tell me generally how the scenes made you feel and whether or not you feel sympathetic to the characters? I know some of this is subjective, I'm sort of fishing around for multiple views to get an idea of how I may react to it. |
Personally, I wasn't too pleased with it (the scene where Sanketsu forced itself onto her). I am not sure what Trigger was trying to get across by what happened. Sanketsu isn't human, after all, and he wasn't trying to have sex with her or even to establish control over her. He simply wanted to be worn by her and not go "back to sleep". But he did accomplish it by force and against Ryuko's free will. And while afterwards Ryuko came to realize the power that she gained as a result, that was afterwards. So, yes, it made me uncomfortable, and while there was some humor in it (Ryuko even exlaims she's being attacked by a girl's sailor uniform), I didn't find the act itself to be very funny.
With that aside, I have to say that the resulting relationship between Ryuko and Senketsu is a good one, and, dare I say it, a healthy one in its own way. Senketsu does care about Ryuko and hasn't acted aggressive or domineering towards her, nor vice versa. They have a partnership, and both of them are pretty committed towards it. This is in contrast with the relationship that Satsuki has with her kamui, which is one of dominance, not equal partnership.
More generally, I don't think Ryuko is supposed to be viewed in an objectifying manner. I don't think that's Trigger's intent, though I'm sure they are aware that some people will do so anyway. This is also addressed by some of Satsuki's comments, too. And it appears to be a plot point as well, and I think it will be revisited several times during the series.
Clothing, status, human nature, power, society, morality, herd mentality, etc... all of these are issues I see at least touched upon by the series. It's hard to say how much of it is intentional by Trigger, but some of it certainly is. I suppose only once it is finished will we be able to tell whether or not Trigger was actually trying to bring in serious matters or whether they're simply window dressing to frame the fights.
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Ultimatum
Joined: 03 Mar 2013
Posts: 160
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:01 pm
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vashfanatic wrote: |
walw6pK4Alo wrote: | Why not just watch an episode and see for yourself? |
Because I've had the awful rape humor take me by surprise in other series (looking at you, Maria-Holic) and I'd like to know ahead of time what I'm getting myself into. I take it from your snark that you think I'm taking this too seriously, but I know from my own experience that rape humor can really, really bother me, and I want to know how bad it actually is. If you think it's not that bad, just say so. |
Personally, the rape humor bothered me, too. That's not the only reason I gave up at episode two, but it was one of them. To give you a brief summary of what happens in that episode, Ryuuko loses while in her skimpy uniform, and staggers home only to pass out after getting off the bus. A few seconds after, a group of kids notices and begins--not exactly chanting, but saying in creepy voices--"ooh, an almost-naked lady!" and gradually getting closer to her, as if they were about to attack her together--and she's still unconscious at this point.
Cut to her waking up in a strange bed, and there's an old man leaning over her, very close. It's pretty obvious that it's meant to look like he's a creepy old man about to take advantage of her. But, surprise! It's only her friend's dad being a creep! Which makes it okay...or something.
Later on in the episode she meets the school doctor, who pins her to a couch with acupuncture needles and strips. Insert sexual assault joke here.
The above don't really spoil anything about the plot, just the progression of a few jokes, but people reading the forum might not want to be spoiled on said jokes, hence the spoiler tags.
I liked the way the show did action scenes, and Ryuuko was cool, but some parts of the show annoyed me or bothered me too much for me to keep going.
EDIT: Sorry about that. I knew it was her friend's dad, but typed it wrong
Last edited by Ultimatum on Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Leebo
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 660
Location: Somerville, MA
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:04 pm
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Ultimatum wrote: |
It's only the main character's dad being a creep! Which makes it okay...or something. |
Whoa, it's not her dad. I know it's still creepy, but it's not THAT creepy.
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Redcrimson
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 160
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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:51 pm
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vashfanatic wrote: | Because I've had the awful rape humor take me by surprise in other series (looking at you, Maria-Holic) and I'd like to know ahead of time what I'm getting myself into. |
If you have an aversion to rape imagery, and forced/unwilling sexual situations played for humor, I'd probably pass on KlK.
It's not completely reprehensible, but it's not shy about using it either.
There are multiple shots of Ryuko deliberately emphasizing her humiliation or sexual vulnerability. IE, Ryuko on the ground with the camera leering down on her. There's a running gag about Mako's brother and father trying to spy on Ryuko changing/showering. And another running gag about an older male teacher stripping in front of her, to her obvious discomfort.
It's not straight-up "these women are objects of lust", but it's enough to be discomforting if you're not too keen on it.
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