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REVIEW: Puella Magi Madoka Magica the Movie Part 3: Rebellion


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Markus Ramikin



Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 6
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:58 pm Reply with quote
FierceAlchemist wrote:
Also, I think it's worth noting that they made this film specifically so they could make more Madoka

Funny, I was thinking quite the same thing, though not as a good thing.

As to what Juno16 said and you quoted, I actually more or less agree with it. I had no problem with the differences between Mami in eps 1-3 and 10, for example.

But a story isn't just characters. There's the world, and the things character strive for or try to avoid. There are arcs, there's progression. To deny that these developments matter would mean letting each timeline just be its own fanfic, without sufficient connection to an actual, you know, story connecting them all, just potential possibilities giving us different looks on the same characters. And that's pretty much what the spinoffs are, like the Drama CDs - which is okay, because they're spinoffs. But it's not okay for the main storyline.

Still, note that the original series, though it involved multiple timelines, is a proper story with development of the world AND characters. We have a Sayaka arc that takes 8-9 episodes, depending how you look at it, and it has consequences that persist even by the end of ep12. We have Homura's journey, the true story of the show. Of course, we see many iterations of her. Each of these Homuras is still the "real" Homura, like juno16 would insist. But this is character development, based on what she experienced, a progression: depressed Moemura to happy Moemura to cold Homura to despairing Homura and finally to New World Homura. Madoka herself is reset a few times, and still her development as a character manages to be enormously important to the story; the various Buddhism-informed analyses of her development are not off the point.

So you can't say "for Madoka Magica characterisation is important and development not really", because it simply wasn't true of the TV show. I wouldn't have liked that story nearly as much as I did, if that were the case. It may be the party line now, since it's a great approach to take when you're trying to milk a franchise and you already inserted time travel and timelines into it - but the original show had more storytelling integrity than that.

But also, my point isn't just characters. Madoka's choice, her achievement, weren't just there to tell us something about her personality. It's a real change to the world, something the characters and the audience cared about: there were real problems, and they got solved, though to a point and at a cost. The next story should have explored this new world more, and built upon what was achieved. Instead, we never get to see this new reality. First we get a fake Mitakihara, and then we get both the whole previous story's achievements and sacrifices becoming irrelevant.

And in my most cynical moments I wonder if the only reason this happened wasn't that the authors realized that demons/wraiths of the new world aren't all that interesting, and you can't contrive to show as much LSD-art with them as the original series did.

Take Sayaka. She made choices, she paid for them, and at the end of the series she's dead. Madoka says that the only way she could have prevented that would be to undo her wish. So, that doesn't happen and Sayaka stays dead. Madoka herself saved magical girls from the fate of succumbing to despair and becoming monsters, but, again, at a price. And she isn't an omnipotent goddess who can fix everything; she just has a specific power. So the authors put certain limitations on themselves, consequences that couldn't be dodged, and in that sense the show earned my respect, instead of having me talk about cop outs and deus ex machina endings.

In Rebellion, that's all out the window. Sayaka is alive, for one. Both before and after Homura's coup. Why is that possible now, if it weren't before? Even if you string along some magicbabble logic to explain it, it still cheapens the old arc.

And if we have her alive, does she get more development for either her character, or her relationship with Kyouko? Oh hell no. The spotlight moment for her and Kyouko is one of the worst things about this movie, because it completely wastes all the potential story we could have had between them. We don't continue with them from where we left off in episodes 8 and 9. Instead, they hold hands and say nice things, a fanservice moment that I'm sure a lot of people liked, but it wasn't story, it wasn't development, it wasn't earned, it didn't come from anything that actually happened before. Sayaka never had time to grow to care for Kyouko.

Then take how Homura steals Madokami's power and rewrites everything to an unprecedented degree, enacting changes Madokami herself was incapable of. What happened to the old limitations? Last time rewriting the universe was an incredible achievement, one that the whole story led to, the culmination of the whole long history of magical girls and Incubators. Entire timelines, entire universes have built up to this. Once the dust settled, the change should have been as lasting as the old order was hard to overthrow. But now it seems like rewriting the universe is an easy and cheap thing to do. Stick Homura in a jar for a while and sure, she'll build up the power to overthrow a goddess and make the whole Universe her playground. And of course we're in for another rewrite in the next movie...

This is what I'm talking about when I say it's hard to be invested in the story now. I am reminded of Alien 3 killing Newt and Hicks before the story even began. The large part of the emotional investment in Aliens was Ripley forming a sort of ad hoc family with Hicks and especially Newt; the fact that they save each other and the girl by the end is the payoff, something the audience cared about. You can't throw the main achievement of one installment out the window in the next one, and expect it not to leave a bad taste in my mouth.


Last edited by Markus Ramikin on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:56 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:26 pm Reply with quote
Hmm...I think you aren't quite interpreting what happened correctly.

What Homura did was pretty different from what Madoka did, because the circumstances are completely different.

Madoka could only do what was within the bounds of her wish. She couldn't 'save' Sayaka because it wasn't within her power to do so.

On the other hand, Homura expanded a witch barrier to encompass the entire universe, and within that barrier she has a large amount of control, albeit not total control. In fact, she can't even fully suppress Madoka's memories. The chances of her control holding on are, to be frank, pretty slim.

As for Sayaka, I'm not really sure why you are complaining about her character development being thrown away, when her entire development, up to and including her overcoming her regrets and acknowledgement of how much Kyouko meant to her set the stage for the next entry in the series.

They basically flashed a neon sign saying that Sayaka will be the true protagonist next time, and most likely one of her central conflicts is going to be between her loyalty to Madoka as the Law of the Cycles, and her desire to stay 'human' (such as she is, which she isn't really) with Kyouko and the others.
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Zing_007



Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:07 pm Reply with quote
In reply to Markus Ramikin, who may or may not remember a past conversation on the exact same topic, I apologize for not replying back, apparently my reply never sent :/ but now we can continue this conversation! I have had a lot of time to think over this movie with winter break in full motion, watching it yet again for the 3rd time, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of the plot and all of its little details.

I wasn't really expecting any development from the characters apart from Homura, since technically, Madoka's wish made it so these were all new characters (except Sayaka and kinda Madoka) who share the personalities of the ones from the original series but did not face the same events which had triggered these characters to grow in the first place. We did however see nice characterization and we got to learn more about these characters in a way in which added to both these and the original characters which I believe was the best way to handle it.

In addition, I understand that you dislike how they brought some characters such as Sayaka back to life as it makes it feel like the limitations that bound them before are now irrelevant. However, the same could be said for how they brought Kyoko and Mami back to life at the end of the series. Based on your logic, wouldn't that make their perils feel less genuine too?

There is very little to any deus ex machina in terms of Rebellion's ending. The problem is that you must connect many points together, and the movie never does this for you, forcing the audience to come to these conclusions on their own.

First of all, Homura is on an entirely different level compared to Madoka in terms of her abilities. I recently realized, the reason Homura was even able to take the powers of Madoka, was because it was part of her wish with Kyubey. Homura's wish to Kyubey was to redo her meeting with Madoka, but this time being strong enough to protect her. While the audience is led on to believe that her wish was granted, it actually was never achieved. Homura never had the ability to protect Madoka, at the point of their meetings. But now, by the power of her wish, Homura is able to take Madoka's power, rewrite laws, and once again, redo her meeting, but this time finally, she is already protecting Madoka, in accordance with her wish which inevitably had to be fulfilled.

Madoka was surprised at this turn of events because her human half, the half that makes her actually look like Madoka, not just a principle of the world, loses her power at that moment, so she wouldn't have been able to know what happens afterwards. Not like it would matter, she still as somewhat of a curse of her wish, still would of had to come down to Homura, because she must save all magical girls of the fate of becoming a witch.

In addition I agree with Fencedude5609, Madoka was actually limited by her wish, and because of this, wasn't able to do everything she wanted. Homura on the other hand, is in an entirely different situation. Homura takes only part of Madoka, allowing the Law of the Cycle to still be in effect and as such, witches don't exist. As Homura's soul gem breaks she doesn't turn into a witch, because witches can't exist. This is why Homura isn't a Magical Girl (her soul gem broke) but also not a witch (Law of the Cycle is still in effect) making Homura sort of in the middle, but with the limitless powers of a God. This is what allows Homura to make the giant witch labyrinth while witches don't exist because technically, it's not a witch labyrinth.

Rebellion brings up this big theme that is rather intelligent: Nothing is ever permanent, and everything over time will collapse. It's a sad, but true statement. Rebellion displays this in its plot and surprisingly, its impact on the series is a perfect example. Madoka Magica, what many considered previously to be an almost flawless show, now are faced with what some believe to be a disaster that tarnishes the show. That was inevitable however, every show will eventually be tarnished or degrade in some way or another. For example the Alien franchise, it's first two movies were great fun and were a joy to watch. It over time though was tarnished by the next two Alien movies (additionally the AVP movies but lets not go into that :P) other shows may not pull out needless sequels and eventually stop at a good point, but who's to say that some other person may intervene with enough money, or power to make a sequel that ruins the series? It's really a hard thinking question that raises even more questions, and much like the movie, is both unavoidable, and terrifying.


Last edited by Zing_007 on Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FierceAlchemist



Joined: 12 Dec 2013
Posts: 75
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Markus Ramikin wrote:
But also, my point isn't just characters. Madoka's choice, her achievement, weren't just there to tell us something about her personality. It's a real change to the world, something the characters and the audience cared about: there were real problems, and they got solved, though to a point and at a cost. The next story should have explored this new world more, and built upon what was achieved. Instead, we never get to see this new reality. First we get a fake Mitakihara, and then we get both the whole previous story's achievements and sacrifices becoming irrelevant.

And in my most cynical moments I wonder if the only reason this happened wasn't that the authors realized that demons/wraiths of the new world aren't all that interesting, and you can't contrive to show as much LSD-art with them as the original series did.

I think it helps when you understand what the creators wanted to do with this film. Here's a quote from Akiyuki Shinbo the director:
Quote:
"The number one thing I wanted to do was to get all the characters together and set them into action again. At the end of the original work, (Kaname) Madoka became a god, and (Miki) Sayaka disappeared. Those two couldn’t take the stage like that. Actually, seeing all the characters become popular and head off in different directions made me feel like it was kind of a waste. That’s one of the main reasons I wanted to make a continuation."

Then there's this from writer Gen Urobuchi:
Quote:
"From the start, the idea was “Homura becomes a witch, and the story takes place inside her barrier”. But at the time, I wanted to end the story with Madoka taking Homura away with her. So, I thought the story would end this time for real (laughs). But both Iwakami-san and Shinbou-san were like, “No, we want the story to keep going after this” and wouldn’t give me the OK. So then when I was getting really worried, Shinbou-san was like “Might as well just make Madoka and Homura into enemies”. And that suggestion was basically the breakthrough. I really agreed that Homura might be plausible as Madoka’s equal opposite."

So the two main ideas they had from the beginning were 1) Have all 5 girls together and 2) Have an ending that's open enough that they could make more. Source: http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685568.html#%7C

They couldn't set it in the new world since Madoka and Sayaka are gone. Urobuchi had to come up with a way to have all 5 of them together, which is something fans always wanted, something we hadn't seen before. And while I would agree that the light fluffy beginning did go too far at times (the cake scene) it was also a great WTF tension builder. I was happy to see them all together as friends, but I also had this building uneasiness. Seeing Charolette with Mami, Kyubey going "kyu," Madoka being a human. Everyone watching knew it was too good to be true given how dark the TV show was. I think that's a cool contrast they were able to make: "This is wrong. You're not supposed to be happy".

Personally, I'm glad that they didn't do Urobuchi's original ending where Homura went to heaven with Madoka. Homura had to do something big to the universe in order to stop Kyubey. Had she left, there'd be nothing to stop the Incubators from continuing their experiments. That would result either in Madokami being controlled by Kyubey or magical girls becoming witches inside their soul gems, sealed off from the Law of Cycles' salvation. Plus it would have made everything that happened inside Homura' soul gem kinda pointless since Madoka would have saved Homura anyway if Kyubey hadn't interfered. With that ending there's no change, no point to everything that's happened.

Also, I would agree with you that the TV show didn't need a sequel. Had they ended it there I would have been happy because the TV show's ending was pretty close to perfect. But as far as a logical progression of the story goes, I think Rebellion makes a lot of sense. What would Kyubey try to do in this new universe? Understand the unexplainable phenomenon behind soul gems disappearing and explore this "witch" concept explained by Homura. What would happen to Homura in the new universe? The loneliness of being the only one who remembers Madoka drives her into despair over time, causing her to doubt if Madoka ever existed. Remember that she never expresses happiness with the way things have turned out. Her wish remains unfulfilled. There was really nothing she could do about it in episode 12, so she had to accept it.
Markus Ramikin wrote:
Take Sayaka. She made choices, she paid for them, and at the end of the series she's dead. Madoka says that the only way she could have prevented that would be to undo her wish, so that doesn't happen. Madoka herself saved magical girls from the fate of succumbing to despair and becoming monsters, but, again, at a price. And she isn't an omnipotent goddess who can fix everything; she just has a specific power. So the authors put certain limitations on themselves, consequences that couldn't be dodged, and in that sense the show earned my respect, instead of having me talk about cop outs and deus ex machina endings.

In Rebellion, that's all out the window. Sayaka is alive. Why is that possible now, if it weren't before? And what happened to consequences?

And if we have her alive, is she going to get more development for either her character, or her relationship with Kyouko? Oh hell no. The spotlight moment for her and Kyouko is one of the worst things about this movie, because it completely wastes all the potential story we could have had between them. We don't continue with them from where we left off in episodes 8 and 9. Instead, they hold hands and say nice things, a fanservice moment that I'm sure a lot of people liked, but it wasn't story, it wasn't development, it wasn't earned, it didn't come from anything that actually happened before. Sayaka never had time to grow to care for Kyouko.

I think that when magical girls succumb to the Law of Cycles, they become a part of it (in Homura's universe Sayaka says "I feel like I used to be part of something greater."). Madokami absorbs their whole soul gem when they die. Thus Madokami was able to take the parts of the Law of Cycles that embody Sayaka and Bebe and put them inside Homura's soul gem. Notice that when they go back to the real world, Sayaka and Bebe descend down from heaven with Madoka, they aren't really alive. Homura brings them into her universe, but we see Sayaka still has Octavia. She's not normal. If things revert back to Madoka's universe, she and Bebe will be dead again.

As for the Sayaka Kyoko relationship, I read it a lot like Madoka and Homura. Madoka couldn't fully understand Homura's feelings until she was able to see all universes. Similarly, Sayaka didn't fall for Kyoko until she became a part of the Law of Cycles and was able to see everything that Kyoko had done for her. Plus, Sayaka only said she regretted she wasn't able to say goodbye to Kyoko, not necessarily a confession of feelings (though it can certainly be read that way).
Markus Ramikin wrote:
Then take how Homura steals Madokami's power and rewrites everything to an unprecedented degree, enacting changes Madokami herself was incapable of. What happened to the old limitations? Last time rewriting the universe was an incredible achievement, one that the whole story led to, the culmination of the whole long history of magical girls and Incubators. Entire timelines, entire universes have built up to this. Once the dust settled, the change should have been as lasting as the old order was hard to overthrow. But now it seems like rewriting the universe is an easy and cheap thing to do. Stick Homura in a jar for a while and sure, she'll build up the power to overthrow a goddess and make the whole Universe her playground. And of course we're in for another rewrite in the next movie...

This is what I'm talking about when I say it's hard to be invested in the story now. I am reminded of Alien 3 killing Newt and Hicks before the story even began. The large part of the emotional investment in Aliens was Ripley forming a sort of ad hoc family with Hicks and especially Newt; the fact that they save each other and the girl by the end is the payoff, something the audience cared about. You can't throw the main achievement of one installment out the window in the next one, and expect it not to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I have a big theory on how Homura did what she did on this page:
animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2808756&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=210

In short, all those timelines built up karmic destiny and tons of emotional power for Homura, but it unlike Madoka she was already a magical girl. It was only when she awakened in a new form (something neither magical girl nor witch) that all that potential was able to be unleashed. She didn't rewrite Madoka's universe; she expanded her witch and "love" barrier over Madoka's universe and has control within it. I think Rebellion's made Homura a lot more interesting and tragic than she was before (not to say she wasn't in the TV show).
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:25 pm Reply with quote
I liked this official fanfic movie. Of course, it's not the masterpiece that the original was but that's expected. I rated it as very good.

The review was spot on the movie. Truly nailed it. I personally found it to not be remotely as powerful as the original TV series. It was also a bit overwhelming visually, having too much stuff on the screen at each moment in time (that means, to many explosions too many magic things happening, etc), which is a natural problem that sequels tend to suffer from. I rate this movie about as high as Evangelion 3.33: very good efforts by the authors of the originals in making some stuff out the originals but nothing much more than that.
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TJF588



Joined: 11 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:27 pm Reply with quote
*reads first page* spoiler[Only not even a week ago finally broke down -- what scant namedrop spoilering I carried -- and watched the camera rip (and all its croppedness), and while my immediate reaction was, "What kinda closure is that?!" (then reading just later that the team's up for continuations, which this is obviously open for compared to the TV series, which at least has the "anime is complete, movies are ongoing" stamp of consideration from Urobochi's words), I feel this movie is a complete complement to what we saw from the series, in a very objective way.

For so much of this movie, we're granted not just that "what-if", but the "what-they/we-were-denied": seeing Mami as acutely capable, aware, and reactive *cough*; seeing the girls enjoying themselves, each others' cooperation (group and one-on-one), and their own powers, without conditions or drawbacks; seeing Sayaka and Kyouko as the head-bumping duo they were just starting to become; greatest for me, seeing Sayaka coming into competence. Fan-pandering, very yes (SO very yes on the SxK front), but enjoyable, like a reward for suffering what became of them before. And yet, because we know what this series does, it's just as much simultaneously setting up for a fall and us begging for ignorance of how "good" things could have been (early parts of episode 10, anyone?). Which happens when everything starts to fall apart.

I actually went along with the movie's red herrings, despite having read the "Akuma" moniker, and was just as quick to blame both of those "agents" of sorts before the lead's self-accusations began. And good DAMN, wasn't it glorious to see Kyubey kick back into gear. Love how the movie provides just NO clarification for why things have been so different; I was honestly unsure if I missed something from Eternal that would have me expecting Bebe.

As for the break-down, yeah, it happened really rapidly, but with the epilogue, I got the sense that Homura wasn't just being selfish, but self-justified. Everything she'd done, as far as she'd pushed and been pushed, she was still going to fail... I'll need to watch it again to get a better sense of the "moment", but in the aftermath, it seemed to me as she had a mentality of, "This is what's best, and I'll force it to stay that way, to keep this. My happiness is hers, hers is this world's." Sustaining a massive ruse to provide what had slipped her grasp for too long. What may be out of character is her relishing it so readily, but what comes of it is justified for her character. Seeing how utterly terrified she was of losing that grip on the situation, of again in weakness allowing for Madoka to bear punishments Homura was determined to keep off, kept the character alright with me. She's still desperate, obsessed with the one goal she's forced on herself for so long.

Plus, the one not-Charlotte duo we've yet to get much mileage on shows itself in that epilogue. After all the crap piled onto Sayaka, I enjoy seeing her stubbornly defying it now, a true contender as Madoka's "best friend" after Homura's betrayal.

Something I'm still not clear on is her reason for keeping Kyubey. I can't recall if we see that there's still magical girls in this world, but if not, is it just to torture them? Maybe they're necessary in the planet's past, to justify humanity' advancement, but I can't help but smile at how lightly she pranced around his twitching "corpse". I like to imagine a nearly neutral face, with a trace uplift to it. But, a better quality video may dispel that.

As for poking at the consistency of the work, maybe I missed something from skipping the first movies (that earring thing?), but just what was the timeframe of Homura's slip? The TV series, looked as if she has persisted beyond [modern] civilization, or at least past her contemporaries, but we not only see the surviving cast at her site, but we know non-magical being were brought in, looking about the same as they had before, so either there's some timejinks going on, or Homura lasted maybe a year before breaking down. THAT I would find untrue to character (or at least the TV show's).]


EDIT: Starting from Markus Ramikin's latest post (the top of this same page, way I see it), this is all great discussion. Being able to criticize and defend a work makes your relation to it stronger, viewing it in ways you may not've considered (character development despite cycles, and Sayaka having an, "I see it all, now," moment), regardless of how your approval of the work changes. I think I'll still enjoy Rebellion no matter, and as said, the TV series and the movies are treated as separate, so we can conclude the world of cycles as we will (y'know, everyone parties up in magi-heaven, I guess, which is fine, left unpresented in all but the manga adaptation, right?). However, I would like to see this world continued to be wrung, and look forward to what is done from here; if nothing else, it will be a spectacle. spoiler[And thanks for reminding me of again the conditions of Homura's wish (which I misconceived while typing up in that user Q&A section of the need-a-red-pen PMMM wiki) and that she less changed the universe than made it her labyrinth, which is not unlike the threat from Kriemhild's growing power through the time loops.]

Aside: I find it interesting how the staff seems to take cues from the fans' reactions (didn't Gen reference, "Too bad! It's just me!"?), topping off with Bebe's affection with Mami.

FINAL EDITS:
1) Eternal is now a very ironic or very cynical subtitle, depending on how far into productions they had Rebellion figured in.
2) This rift between base material and continuation has me thinking back to Asura's Wrath and its Part IV, though the finality of the two is switched (especially if we don't consider the vanilla game's teaser alternate ending)...
3) ...which I'll soon determine for myself whether the movies match up in the teaser sense of this comparison (golden Kyubeys, yo) thanks to what seems too good I must be cursing it, Kiss Anime (I swear, Aniplex, I'll put up with DAISUKI-style bookend ads (intermittent+repetitive is grueling) if you just provided dubs with a good video quality).
4) I am so sorry to be posting so long after discussion died down. (Perhaps the BD discussion thread?)
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FierceAlchemist



Joined: 12 Dec 2013
Posts: 75
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:00 am Reply with quote
TJF588 wrote:
Something I'm still not clear on is her reason for keeping Kyubey. I can't recall if we see that there's still magical girls in this world, but if not, is it just to torture them? Maybe they're necessary in the planet's past, to justify humanity' advancement, but I can't help but smile at how lightly she pranced around his twitching "corpse". I like to imagine a nearly neutral face, with a trace uplift to it. But, a better quality video may dispel that.


Homura says that she still needs him to take care of curses. He still needs to contract with magical girls and eat the greif cubes they get from killing wraiths.

TJF588 wrote:
As for poking at the consistency of the work, maybe I missed something from skipping the first movies (that earring thing?), but just what was the timeframe of Homura's slip? The TV series, looked as if she has persisted beyond [modern] civilization, or at least past her contemporaries, but we not only see the surviving cast at her site, but we know non-magical being were brought in, looking about the same as they had before, so either there's some timejinks going on, or Homura lasted maybe a year before breaking down. THAT I would find untrue to character (or at least the TV show's).


It's hard to say if the post credits sequence from the TV show is relevant to Rebellion. Shinbo said in an interview that he views the TV show as it's own thing and the Rebellion as a sequel to the two film, which did not have that post-credits scene.

I do agree with you that it seems odd if Homura fell that far in just a year. I think it's possible that it's been like 5 years but they age very slowly cause they're magical girls.
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TJF588



Joined: 11 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:56 am Reply with quote
FierceAlchemist wrote:
I do agree with you that it seems odd if Homura fell that far in just a year. I think it's possible that it's been like 5 years but they age very slowly cause they're magical girls.

But then what of Tatsuya, who IIRC still looked to be a toddler after being pulled in? To a lesser degree, Hitomi and Nippon Chopin. That's what throws me more, since they all pragmatically look as they did at the end of the series. I could chock it to time hijinks, but official clarisification would be preferred. (Man, took me long enough, but I'm lovin' needing out about this 'franchise'.)
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FierceAlchemist



Joined: 12 Dec 2013
Posts: 75
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:24 am Reply with quote
TJF588 wrote:
But then what of Tatsuya, who IIRC still looked to be a toddler after being pulled in? To a lesser degree, Hitomi and Nippon Chopin. That's what throws me more, since they all pragmatically look as they did at the end of the series. I could chock it to time hijinks, but official clarisification would be preferred. (Man, took me long enough, but I'm lovin' needing out about this 'franchise'.)


That's a good point. Shaft better have some kind of explanation in the next TV show/movie.
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Tachikoma1701



Joined: 15 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:40 pm Reply with quote
Well, hello again!

Juno016 wrote:
But the series did have meaning, and each character arc contributed to it, even after the characters were "reset." Mami's character arc revealed to the audience that Magical Girls are serious business in this anime. Mami herself may not have been given a ton of direct development/characterization in the main timeline, but her death weighed heavily on Madoka's mind in first recognizing that Magical Girls lead lives that aren't that great overall (episode 4's walkway scene). Sayaka's character arc revealed two major secrets of Magical Girls (Soul Gems and Witches) and her demise was what helped the audience recognize Madoka's stance against Kyuubey's methods and her position on what exactly she thought was important (episode 9's bedroom scene). Kyouko's arc was also about helping narrow Madoka's views on her wish, showing her that wishes are not to be wasted. Homura's character arc was more for the audience, but the conclusion allowed Madoka to see Homura's life and sacrifices up to that point, finally, and recognize Homura as the greatest kind of friend she could have. Madoka's wish, in the end, took all these things about each character she knew and the context Kyuubey gave her about Magical Girls throughout history and returned hope to each of them while respecting their history. In other words, the characters may have been reset, but they're still the same people with similar values, and the message of the series was about returning "hope" to them and the values they still hold, and as Urobuchi has said, helping the audience understand and believe in what exactly "love and hope and dreams" (cookie-cutter concepts in many other Magical Girl series) truly mean to Magical Girls.

Rebellion is more of a cliffhanger and from what it looks like, the girls aren't so much "reset" as they are "suppressed." Homura's "regression" wasn't meant to be so much a "regression" as it was supposed to explore her character even more. As Urobuchi said, the original series gave us all there is to Madoka, and this movie gave us all there is to Homura. Now that her character is established, it's up to future installments to do something with it.


Key, world here is: HAD - serieshad meaning, past tense, because now it's all rendered meaningless. Now, all of this was thrown into garbage. If authors said something in one instalment of the franchise, and in next instalment they said something completely contradictory, then I would say that in reality, they have nothing to say at all, and they only pretend that they do, in order to create an illusion that their artwork is deep and meaningful... First, they said that: "You have to focus on the one thing that means to you the most and protect it until the very end", now they say: "No, protecting this one thing can turn you into a devil!" Laughing So, they made message of the show completely meaningless. What was the point of saying all those things, presenting all those themes, when now, they all are worthless? Rolling Eyes

Sayaka story mettered, both thematically and narratively - in fact themes were intertwined with her story. Using her story authors criticized idealism and showed us that being a hero, is next to impossible, not because heroism in itself is bad, but because fallible human nature make it very hard to achieve - we always have subconscious, not so noble motives... So the fact, that Sayaka's story turned out the way it did, was important both on thematic and narrative level - for this same reason her character growth and development mettered. Her story had meaning, because it also had consequences. What her story means, now? Nothing, absolutely nothing! Everything is undone - her story never happened, she didn't suffered consequences, she didn't make a choice in the end, to stay dead. It's all good, Saya. No harm, no foul - your friendly neighborhood Lucifer will give you out of the jail free card: you are alive and well again, and even your would-be boyfriend is healthy! So, essentially Sayaka's story was a big waste of time. This same can be said about Madoka's arc. You quite accurately described her story, her character growth and you said what it all means. And guess what? All of this is also irrelevant. It never even happened and - correct me if I'm wrong - there is even a scene in a movie, wher they openly said that Kaname's sacrifice become meaningless. Way to go Urobuchi! It's not like you spend 12 episodes, telling us how special she is, and how super-duper powerful she will become - now apparently anyone who have "power of love" can steal Madoka's power and become more powerful than her. It's not like Madoka's choice, sacrifice and character growth should matter... Rolling Eyes They clearly don't. Can you tell me what was the point of Kaname's story? Apparently, there was no point, since everything is back to square one. And yes, Homura did regressed - she is again creepy stalker who clip Madoka's wings - like this character never existed:
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130923023850/anime-fanon/images/8/89/Puella_magi_madoka_magica-12-homura-ribbons.jpg
And maybe Madoka, Sayaka and others will regain their memories or maybe not - if you consider possibility that this can be THE END - but whatever will happen, it will not change the fact that choices made by Kaname and Miki in TV series are now completely inconsequential. In other worlds: thanks to "Rebellion" TV series is now a big waste of time.

Juno016 wrote:
The ending of the TV series was already half fanservice. Kyouko and Sayaka, in the new world, had finally become friends. We just didn't feel it was 100% fanservice because Sayaka was gone, anyway, so they couldn't be together, even if we wanted them to (and Urobuchi refused to let Sayaka stay with the group at the end, since he wanted to use her to make sure the audience know that being a Magical Girl is still serious business).
But then Rebellion opened everything up. In the first place, we can believe Madoka and Homura's relationship as close friends because we got to see Madoka explain that she now knows all of Homura's sacrifices and that helped her realize that Homura was always a great friend. In that case, isn't it the same for Sayaka, who now has seen everything Madoka has seen? It may not have been shown to us, but it's highly evident (in the fact that she knows about Witches and knows about Homura's struggle) that Sayaka got to see the sacrifices Kyouko made for her, too. And now that they saw each other again, she's basically saying what Madoka said to Homura--that Kyouko was more important to her than she first realized. Blatant fanservice? No doubt. But hardly out of nowhere. The only issue is that we didn't get to see the progression the two had to become friends in Madoka's revised universe, but... I'd rather they not use irrelevant screen time to divulge into side stuff like that. It might contribute to the side characters, but it would take too much time out of a focused movie. The short scene they had was enough for me. I'm very capable of connecting what happened in the original series to another potential timeline where they eventually became friends. Otherwise, their relationship WOULD have been a regression.


Being a Magical Girl is still serious business... not, anymore. Laughing Now if you are MG you will get out of the jail free card, that is certain. And yes, let's not waste time on developing relationship between important characters, it's far better to devote it to"meaningful" stuff like cake songs, over the top transformations that goes on forever, Nightmares - which were so important! - and gun battle between Mami and Homura - clearly crucial plot point! Rolling Eyes Yes, screen time can't be wasted! Laughing Better yet, to replace character development with fanservice - that will be improvement, over TV show, right?

Juno016 wrote:
But Kyuubey explained himself. He didn't interfere with Homura's will intentionally. At least, not more than he usually does. She was already at the point of becoming a Witch. He didn't speed up the process or anything. He says it in the movie. The incubators simply took her Soul Gem before she would disappear and trapped it, thinking her life was over anyway, so it didn't matter anymore. "Homura's story has already ended. What happens from here is irrelevant to you. So why...etc.?" I believe he says something like that to question her reaction to his plan. It's not that he doesn't respect humans as a race. He just doesn't understand their emotional values, so he steps over them anyway, when he thinks he's justified. This is no different from him not telling the Magical Girls about all the dark secrets he knows they won't like to hear.


Oh, no this is very, very different! There is colossal difference between kidnapping someone and experimenting on her, and telling a half truth in order to gain something. And what's the difference if Homura was dying or not? If you were terminally ill and I would abducted you from hospital, then it would be OK? And it would be this same like if I didn't tell you the whole truth about something? Tell, me when Kyuubey did something like this - abducting and experimenting - in TV show? On top of that, he was doing this for very specific reason: he wanted to capture and control Madokami. Yes, let's forget that Incubators didn't enslaved and controlled sentient beings...

Juno016 wrote:
Wait. The original series said this? I thought that's what the new movie was saying even more clearly... Homura is protecting Madoka to the very end. The end of the TV series had her protecting Madoka's ideals because they were out of reach and the new movie had her protecting an in-reach Madoka with even more vigor, especially after Madoka told her she'd never want to leave her and Homura believed those were her true feelings.
I actually don't think that was the MAIN message of the original series (rather, it's a theme related to the values of the girls themselves), and I do think the new movie is meant to throw a wrench into the original series' message, but it's not a permanent change. Urobuchi destroys "good" things to show us they can realistically be destroyed with ease. Madoka's TV series was about picking the pieces up. He may not be writing the future of Madoka after this movie, but it seems to me like Rebellion's ending is meant to be the wrench that gives future installments a reason to exist: to pull that wrench out. The ending to the movie suggests that the new world under Homura isn't permanent, after all.
Whether future installments do just that, I guess we'll have to wait, hope, and see. I AM still skeptical. Just hopefully, too.


Yes, it was said right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu4O79a8KcI
That was the meaning of heroism: you couldn't change the world, because you can't change human nature, but you can protect this one precious thing. Now, protecting this precious thing can turn you into the devil. So, this message is now flushed down the toilet. This same can be said about this message: "Don't forget. Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember her, you are not alone." All of this was completely contradicted.

Juno016 wrote:
She didn't say the world wasn't a beautiful place or that the world was worth living in. She said the world wasn't "worth saving." She was simply protecting Madoka's beliefs, coldly, because she felt Madoka would've wanted that after the ending. The movie DID change her feelings about this, of course, but those feelings are far more than a simple "regression" of character. They clearly defined the conflict still eating away at Homura's psyche at the end of the TV series--that she had doubts about Madoka being Ultimate Madoka without getting hurt. The movie simply allowed her to act on those doubts once they were confirmed. Surely, this doesn't place her in the positive role-model position she had at the end of the TV series, but that doesn't mean that her character has regressed. We now know more about Homura's inner feelings.


But she indeed regressed! Like I said many times before, she is now again creepy stalker who is clipping Madoka's wings. Like character in the end of TV show never existed. How is this not regression?

Juno016 wrote:
EDITEDIT: Also, I have not seen justification for how Homura can grab/split Madoka in the real world. But if they're still inside her Soul Gem, I think it's very justified.


Juno016 wrote:
To be perfectly honest, this isn't something that was explained. What I want to know is... was Homura aware that she would rip Madoka apart or did it just happen? All she said was that she didn't want to let go of Madoka ever again. It was then that Madoka was like, "Don't! You'll rip me apart!" But she didn't, so Madoka was split or something at that point. And THEN Homura said she only stole a specific part of her, as if it was intentional. So... I'm confused about it, too. It was at this point in the movie where the physical things that happened in the world get a bit vague and confusing...


Don't ask me, ask authors of this movie. For me entire ending was an aspull, and it created more questions that answers: how did Homura capture Madoka - Kaname was a immaterial concept after all? How did she steal her powers - when it was said that she can do something like this? And how did Homura Akuma manage to use them to affect the existing universe - bring Sayaka back etc. - a thing that Madokami can't do, if Devil Homura's powers are stolen from her? Why the omniscient Madokami didn't see it coming? At this point, the only thing that could save this movie for me would be retconning this ending - saying that it was all a dream within a dream, because as it is "Rebellion" not only make no sense, but also it also made TV series completely irrelevant.
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Kaisos Erranon



Joined: 15 Feb 2013
Posts: 214
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:22 am Reply with quote
Holy walls of text, Man-Bat!
I'd just like to say to y'all that I don't think Homura's character "regressed" in any way. Instead, her actions here are far more in line with how she's been presented from the beginning. Her tendency to avoid dealing with problems by timelooping, her need to be in the (cough) dominant, protecting position in regards to her relationship with Madoka and her refusal to envision a world in which this is NOT the case... and above all, her wish (to save Madoka) and her promise (to prevent Madoka from becoming a magical girl to begin with) both of which she failed at... well, Rebellion is the natural outcome of all that.
Y'know?
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z3phyr01



Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:04 am Reply with quote
Just finished watching this. Mind blown during the last 20 mins or so and also during the 1 hour train ride back home. Almost missed my stop because I was reading through some of the comments here (30 pages and walls of text Shocked). After reading through so many viewpoints, I have finally made sense of the movie in my mind and come up with my own perspective.

First of all, I am of the opinion that the TV series had a good ending that cut off loose ends and it didn't need a sequel. Thats not to say that it couldnt have one. And this movie sets it up perfectly for the next inevitable season 2. For people hating on this movie and saying what homura did was out of character and even evil , my opinion is that you did not understand her at all.

What she wanted in essence was a happy and normal life for her best friend. No fighting witches, no being cosmic god, just a normal life. And even better if Homura was able to be with her. But thats simply a side-wish. She was willing to die a witch in order to save madokami from possible incubator control in the future. And of course, the act of stealing madokami's power and suppressing her memories in order to put her into the happy and normal life she thought was best for her. So, it was actually nothing out of character. It was in line with her original goal, her wish for becoming a magical girl in the first place. She actually disagreed with Madoka's wish, but just went along with it in order to honour her friend's wishes. And also because there was nothing she could do about it. In the flower scene, her feelings were confirmed by Madoka saying that she only made her wish because she felt bound by duty instead of her own personal feelings. Thats why, when an opportunity presented itself, Homura jumped at the chance to "free" Madoka from her cycle and duties, from her point of view.

So now, the question of whether what Homura did was evil. What needs to be discussed here is the conflict of two opposite ideologies. Madoka believes in self-sacrifice for the greater good of the world at large (or witches mainly); Homura believes that it is not justified because it means sacrificing one's happiness and life. From a third party view, obviously Madoka is 'right' in terms of scale. Sacrifice one to save thousands? Sounds morally right and fair enough. But if you are in that position or any of your loved ones are, would you still think that it is justifiable, even if they think it is? If both of you think so, then well, good for you. Altruism at its best.

I am convinced that most people would take Homura's stand instead. Consider this analogy (happened to one of my relatives). The father suffered a stroke and was going to be bedridden for life. Family was poor. He wanted to kill himself to save them the medical bills and give them insurance money. Family refused, kept him on sedatives for a period to stop him killing himself. Is that evil? Should the family have let him kill himself since he wanted to anyway? Is the family being selfish because they believe their love for the father outweighs his view that he is being a burden to the family? (as what people are saying of Homura) Believe me, if there was an option to mind control or suppress memories as to what Homura have done, the family would have done so instead of using sedatives. The theme here is the same. It is very easy to judge from a third party's perspective on what should or should not be done. When you are experiencing it yourself, it might not be so easy. We are human after all. This is why love is illogical. My point is, those people who said Homura is evil because she overrode Madoka's will is spouting nonsense. It was out of love, and I wouldnt even consider it as selfish love. Of course, the other option of Homura abiding by Madoka's will is equally valid. In my opinion, to condemn either as good or evil is just plain absurdity. Humans are not so simple to be classified into black or white. This kind of area is mostly grey, and no one has the right to judge what is right or what is wrong. I hope that no one was misled by Homura saying she was a devil, complete with devil outfit and black wings.

What some people dont get is that Homura is in fact the tragic heroine in both the TV series and this movie. She had to endure all those repeated timelines, then still fail to save her friend, and instead have her friend sacrifice herself to save her and the other witches. Then in Rebellion, she found out that she was the witch who dragged other people into her labyrinth, and her friend was being targeted by those pesky Incubators again. Most certainly enough to send her off the deep end and going to all those extremes. Again, it IS extreme, you may disagree with it, but it is not wrong, and obviously not evil.

And to those people who said that Rebellion was a waste of time and made the TV series irrelevant, Im trying really hard to phrase this in a way that does not insult your intelligence. Basically, you are suggesting that because things are back to square one, the twists and turns during the journey were unnecessary? Then you should probably go and read a synopsis of the whole story instead. Things can NEVER become back to square one. Even if the end result was the same, the journey is the more important thing.

Anyway, the problem is how the story is going to progress from now on. The one very important unanswered question is: what happened to the law of cycle? In the movie it was said that it was maintained, Homura only stole Madoka from it. Meaning that someone else had to do her job of being omnipresent and dissolving corrupted soul gems before they became witches. So who is that? And isnt this already the best possible ending? If someone else is doing it for Madoka, Homura can stop suppressing her memories and convince her that her duty was being fulfilled already. This would make Madoka willing to stop her self sacrifice, then they can live happily ever after. Or is the law actually not functioning and soul gems are turning into witches again? Then when Madoka gets wind of it, it is going turn into Madokami vs Homucifer. Apparently there is a plot hole here because i get the feeling that the latter is the case. Whatever the case, I am most certainly looking forward to season 2. Overall, it was a visually stunning movie and the fanservice at the start was good. The story, well, certainly was shocking. I expected an "optional boss fight", not an expansion set. However, it was not totally unexpected give that the company would want to milk this cash cow series again. While it was done nicely this time, I hope that the next season will conclude it and have a happy FINAL ending. I do not wish for such a good series to drag on forever *cough(Bleach/Naruto)cough* God this is a wall of text. Oh well, at least I got it off my chest.
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Tachikoma1701



Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:40 pm Reply with quote
z3phyr01 wrote:
This kind of area is mostly grey, and no one has the right to judge what is right or what is wrong..


Sorry, mate but I'm facepalming right now. Rolling Eyes Of course as a sentient, human being I have every right to judge what is right or what is wrong! And what Homura did was obviously evil. Yes, it was evil, even if she had best intentions. What we are talking here about is nothing else than dictatorship - Humura is self proclaimed ruler of the universe, she can do whatever the hell she wants, there is no freedom and she keeps everyone in the dark - she don't care about free will and she is invading people's minds, and minds are very, very private area. She is manipulating people's memories, practically changing who those people are. How is this a good thing? Sorry, but if you agree with her, then I suggest that you should go to any undemocratic country, and see for yourself how fun is to have no freedom to choose, how fun is to being lied to and being manipulated - of course, all for your own good! Who needs freedom and sincerity, right? I know what I'm talking about, because I was raised in Poland, ex-communist country and I remember how being a child, I was told that communist dictatorship should make us all happy. Well, it didn't, and now my country is democratic - people decided their own fate. And that's what people do - we, human beings want freedom to decide , and that's why Homura taking away freedom from Madoka and others is evil.
And BTW, why you are giving Homura extra rights? Why her wishes should be any more important than wishes of Madoka or Sayaka, or anyone else on the planet? Why should Homura decide how people should live their lives? Why she should dictate how world look like? Who elected Akemi, who give her the right to decide about Madoka's fate? Should we agree with this Evil Queen, just because she is currently stronger, than anyone else in the universe? Might make it right? Then why don't agree with Kim Jong Un or Hitler? In fact it's funny that her name is Akemi Homura, work a little with it, and you will get, "good" old Adolf... Laughing and yes, he also wanted to make German people happy Twisted Evil And you know, what's funny? Homura would agree with me - she knows that what she is doing is wrong, that's why she calls herself the devil, and that's why she hate herself.

z3phyr01 wrote:
So now, the question of whether what Homura did was evil. What needs to be discussed here is the conflict of two opposite ideologies. Madoka believes in self-sacrifice for the greater good of the world at large (or witches mainly); Homura believes that it is not justified because it means sacrificing one's happiness and life. From a third party view, obviously Madoka is 'right' in terms of scale. Sacrifice one to save thousands? Sounds morally right and fair enough. But if you are in that position or any of your loved ones are, would you still think that it is justifiable, even if they think it is? If both of you think so, then well, good for you. Altruism at its best.


Well, the fact is that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. That's the reason why in civilized countries we have this small thing called democracy - needs of majority are more important than needs of minority. That's not only ideology, that's fact of life. But it's not only about utalitarism or democracy - it's also about what Madoka really wants. And if I remember correctly, she was begging Homura, not to do this...

z3phyr01 wrote:
I am convinced that most people would take Homura's stand instead. Consider this analogy (happened to one of my relatives). The father suffered a stroke and was going to be bedridden for life. Family was poor. He wanted to kill himself to save them the medical bills and give them insurance money. Family refused, kept him on sedatives for a period to stop him killing himself. Is that evil? Should the family have let him kill himself since he wanted to anyway? Is the family being selfish because they believe their love for the father outweighs his view that he is being a burden to the family? (as what people are saying of Homura) Believe me, if there was an option to mind control or suppress memories as to what Homura have done, the family would have done so instead of using sedatives. The theme here is the same. It is very easy to judge from a third party's perspective on what should or should not be done. When you are experiencing it yourself, it might not be so easy. We are human after all. This is why love is illogical. My point is, those people who said Homura is evil because she overrode Madoka's will is spouting nonsense. It was out of love, and I wouldnt even consider it as selfish love. Of course, the other option of Homura abiding by Madoka's will is equally valid. In my opinion, to condemn either as good or evil is just plain absurdity. Humans are not so simple to be classified into black or white. This kind of area is mostly grey, and no one has the right to judge what is right or what is wrong. I hope that no one was misled by Homura saying she was a devil, complete with devil outfit and black wings.


Your analogy is invalid. Firstly, Madoka wasn't dying, she wasn't in tremendous pain either. Look how greatly she suffered - oh, no it's unbearable:
http://images.puella-magi.net/f/fc/Puella112_000272-1.jpg?20120301020804
This is a face of someone who is unhappy? Laughing No, it isn't. In fact, for entirety of TV series we seen Madoka, being unhappy because she was powerless, and because she couldn't help people, and because she couldn't make a difference. This was repeated many times in TV show: she wanted to have a meaningful life. That's why she was happy in the end of TV show, and that's why her wish wasn't entirely selfless - helping other people was making her happy! You are talking about the girl, who's role models were Junko - successful businesswoman - and Mami - superheroine, who was saving lives on daily basis. Those were people who were her inspiration. And let's be honest, Madoka pale in comparison with both of them. Like, she herself said: she is not very smart, and she don't have any talents - her only asset is her compassionate nature, and now she can't even put it to good use. You really think that, in the long term Kaname will be happy with her mediocre life, knowing that she can't help anyone? Did Homura took this under consideration? Of course, not! Being a goddess was Madoka's purpose in life, now what Madoka will do when she growns up - assuming that Homoura's new world is not some continuous time loop? She will sell hot dogs on a stick, or clean toilets? What, wonderful and purposeful life she will have! But that isn't important as long HomuHomu is happy, right? Secondly: this isn't about euthanasia, but if you already opened this particular can of worms, then I must say that your friends are wrong. My life is my life, and no one have any right to decide what I can or can't do with it. I can certainly see where your friends are coming from, but keeping someone alive against his/her will is simply selfish and unethical. As long as they are happy, right?

z3phyr01 wrote:
What she wanted in essence was a happy and normal life for her best friend. No fighting witches, no being cosmic god, just a normal life. And even better if Homura was able to be with her. But thats simply a side-wish. She was willing to die a witch in order to save madokami from possible incubator control in the future. And of course, the act of stealing madokami's power and suppressing her memories in order to put her into the happy and normal life she thought was best for her. So, it was actually nothing out of character. It was in line with her original goal, her wish for becoming a magical girl in the first place. She actually disagreed with Madoka's wish, but just went along with it in order to honour her friend's wishes. And also because there was nothing she could do about it. In the flower scene, her feelings were confirmed by Madoka saying that she only made her wish because she felt bound by duty instead of her own personal feelings. Thats why, when an opportunity presented itself, Homura jumped at the chance to "free" Madoka from her cycle and duties, from her point of view..


What she wanted in essence was a happy and normal life for her best friend... No, what she wanted was to protect Madoka from Walpurgis. This wish come true in the end - Madoka didn't die, and she didn't turn into a witch. Tell, me o wise one - if what Homura did in "Rebellion" was true to her character, then why we never seen situation when Akemi kidnapped Madoka and transported her far away from Mitakihara, until Walpurgis threat was over? That's right, she never did that, because she respected Madoka's free will!. And, again why Homura's wish should be any more important than Madoka's wish?

z3phyr01 wrote:
What some people don't get is that Homura is in fact the tragic heroine in both the TV series and this movie. She had to endure all those repeated timelines, then still fail to save her friend, and instead have her friend sacrifice herself to save her and the other witches. Then in Rebellion, she found out that she was the witch who dragged other people into her labyrinth, and her friend was being targeted by those pesky Incubators again. Most certainly enough to send her off the deep end and going to all those extremes. Again, it IS extreme, you may disagree with it, but it is not wrong, and obviously not evil.


Yes, it is evil! Can I feel pity for Homura? Sure! I can also feel pity for Gollum or Batman's villains, but that doesn't change the fact that sympathetic villain, is still a villain, nonetheless. All of those characters are tragic - that doesn't excuse their actions. Homura in "Rebellion" is a thief - she stolen Madoka's power- , betrayer - she practically backstabbed her best and only friend -, kidnaper - she deprived Madoka of her freedom -, liar - she erased people's memories and show them illusionary world -, and dictator - now, everyone is just a doll, in Homura's dollhouse. If this is not evil, then I don't know what is? And if this is only beginning of her reign, if there will be season 2, then this is just a top of the iceberg - because absolute power corrupts absolutely. And I don't care why Homura did this: if she indeed wanted to make Madoka happy or if she is just obsessesive yandere, who just want Madoka, all for herself, or if she did it for the safety of puppies... and Christmas. Laughing All I care about is that she sink lower than Kyubey- at least he did what he did, for a sake of the universe, and he helped to develop human civilisation. She created unstable universe just to make this one, chick "happy" - even though this directly goes against Madoka's wishes.

z3phyr01 wrote:
And to those people who said that Rebellion was a waste of time and made the TV series irrelevant, Im trying really hard to phrase this in a way that does not insult your intelligence. Basically, you are suggesting that because things are back to square one, the twists and turns during the journey were unnecessary? Then you should probably go and read a synopsis of the whole story instead. Things can NEVER become back to square one. Even if the end result was the same, the journey is the more important thing.


Oh, teach me the wise one! Laughing Tell, me wise master, why series should metter now, since events of TV series never happened, and they were completly inconsequential? Character arcs? - irrelevant, all those twists and turns you were talking about? - didn't mattered at all, messages and themes presented in series? - flushed down a toilet. So, tell me, in what way TV series matters, when it was rendered meaningless? And no, my dear Sir, journey doesn't mean a damn thing were there is no end destination and when there are no consequences, and no progress. And when in the end everything can't be erased with convenient reset button. And how things, can't never become back to square one, when they are in square one, right now? Laughing And you know what? I will not read synopsis of the TV series, I will watch series and pretend that "Rebellion" never existed, unless authors will retcon this messy movie.

z3phyr01 wrote:
And isnt this already the best possible ending? If someone else is doing it for Madoka, Homura can stop suppressing her memories and convince her that her duty was being fulfilled already. This would make Madoka willing to stop her self sacrifice, then they can live happily ever after. Or is the law actually not functioning and soul gems are turning into witches again? Then when Madoka gets wind of it, it is going turn into Madokami vs Homucifer. Apparently there is a plot hole here because i get the feeling that the latter is the case. Whatever the case, I am most certainly looking forward to season 2. Overall, it was a visually stunning movie and the fanservice at the start was good. The story, well, certainly was shocking. I expected an "optional boss fight", not an expansion set. However, it was not totally unexpected give that the company would want to milk this cash cow series again. While it was done nicely this time, I hope that the next season will conclude it and have a happy FINAL ending.


I don't know who in the right mind would demand happy ending in a tragedy? Bittersweetness of original ending was good enough. And no, Homura and Madoka living happily ever after in Mitakihara, wouldn't be a happy ending or even a good one from narrative point of view. It would made Madoka's previous sacrifice meaningless, and Homura's devilish deeds would be inconsequential.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:44 pm Reply with quote
I, personally, feel that it's basically impossible to justify Homura's actions in the end of this movie. What she did was wrong and obviously evil, mainly because she had to shit all over Madoka's wish to do it. But a ton of people have Homura as their waifu and simply refuse to see her as anything other than a paragon and good. She's a selfish nut.

If Homura isn't the villian of whatever continuation this is gonna inevitably get, I'm gonna be really annoyed at Urobochi.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:54 pm Reply with quote
They did to Homura, what they did to Yuji from Shakugan no Shana. Took a basically good character, waved their wand and turned them evil. The Homura from the very end of the TV series would never have pulled that crap. Personally, I think it is just lazy writing to drive the plot, but I guess that is just me.

I really had thought they would have used the Law of Cycles world, especially the period from the very end of the PMMM TV series as the continuation story. Instead they go for a mix of "The Prisoner" and "Alice of Wonderland".
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