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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 12377

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:08 pm Reply with quote
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If you want to blame the mid-2000s rise of moe for all of that, be my guest. But the moe aesthetic, or whatever gets lumped into that basket, also brought us The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Toradora!, Kannagi, and other genuinely good shows.


Perhaps, but it's still a shitty trade-off. Especially considering how many early 2000s fans moe alienated. It put industries in both countries in the unfair position of having to re-introduce and re-invent anime to general audiences, simply to let casual viewers know that most anime is not like that otaku crap. So thanks, moe. You succeeded where tentacle rape failed in turning off people from anime.
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RyanSaotome



Joined: 29 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:44 pm Reply with quote
For the first question, it should be mentioned that many seiyuu actually ARE established music acts, too. Many seiyuu put out their own CDs and are essentially idols in their own right... its not like the American dubbing industry where all they do is voice an anime and thats it. Some are also part of existing music groups as well, like Sphere and YuiKaori. So there probably are some examples where they just do it because its cheaper, but its also because these are seiyuus with existing fanbases among the audience the anime is aimed at, and they want to hear their newest songs.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4199

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:51 pm Reply with quote
RyanSaotome wrote:
For the first question, it should be mentioned that many seiyuu actually ARE established music acts, too. Many seiyuu put out their own CDs and are essentially idols in their own right... its not like the American dubbing industry where all they do is voice an anime and thats it. Some are also part of existing music groups as well, like Sphere and YuiKaori. So there probably are some examples where they just do it because its cheaper, but its also because these are seiyuus with existing fanbases among the audience the anime is aimed at, and they want to hear their newest songs.


Interestingly enough a few new VAs are singers (such as Christina Vee or Christine Marie Cabanos).

But yeah Seiyū are part of a massive network far beyond their anime. It seems that you HAVE to be able to sing if you wanna be a female Seiyū.
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Rederoin



Joined: 29 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:33 pm Reply with quote
Since when does moe refer to otaku pandering anime?

I'm not sure if the correct defintion of 'moe' is being used here.
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aoi yuuki fanboy



Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:06 pm Reply with quote
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If you want to blame the mid-2000s rise of moe for all of that, be my guest. But the moe aesthetic, or whatever gets lumped into that basket, also brought us The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Toradora!, Kannagi, and other genuinely good shows.


...and K-on!
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rydia251



Joined: 10 Jul 2013
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:07 pm Reply with quote
^ Is the correct definition of moe ever used, or can it even be agreed upon? Love how he made fun of of the entire problem in the opening paragraph.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:35 pm Reply with quote
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If Space Dandy is a success, will this start a new trend in anime?


Where do people get these silly ideas? Space Dandy isn't anything anti-moe, it appears to just be a rehash of Cobra with even more wackiness added in. It's not going to be your lord and savior of anime: Cowboy Bebop II. Even if it's a success, I kind of doubt it'll be anything that can shape the industry towards a new direction, anime's too interconnected with manga, visual novels, and light novels for those shows you don't like to not also be adapted. As long as semi-popular LNs continue to be published, so will adaptations be made from them.

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It appears that Moe is finally starting to hit it's expiration date, and that shows like 'Beyond the Boundary' are taking it's place in this weird Moe/Action/other genre hybrid.


I'm not even sure I understand what he's really saying. You mean "cute X doing Y"? That's not really a deathknell of shows of that kind, more like an expansion to new areas, like cute girls riding tanks, or cute girls being battleships. It's a brave new world of kawaii.
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ikillchicken
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:59 pm Reply with quote
Answerman wrote:
Or has the term simply become a catch-all term for everything relating to the half-assed otaku-pandering laziness endemic to the industry?


Basically yes. I think there's a legitimate underlying criticism when people criticize "moe" but they aren't really saying what they mean to. They just use "moe" because that's an easy catch-all term that they know for the stuff they want to criticize.
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TehDarkPrince



Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:22 pm Reply with quote
Maybe I'm harsh, but I think a lot of OPs that use seiyuu, more so when the song is explicitly made for the show and the lyrics heavily tied to it, are a mash up of good, mediocre, and not good singers. I really like Minori Chihara's op for Gargantia and Kyoukai no Kanata. I haven't had the time or the interest to get back into it though, but I'm hearing mixed things about it.
Kyoani makes something that doesn't seem to resemble their usual bag of stuff, yet by episode 5 it seemed to be mired in banal, slice-of-life diatribes about glasses girls. Chuunibyou was a pleasant surprise that surpassed my expectations, but I guess I set them too high for KnK.

If it wasn't useless information, it would be kind of interesting or even chuckle-inducing to find out what the most widely accepted definition for moe is among non-Japanese fans and the Japanese.

It was always very odd to me how Haruhi was trying to be self aware of moe while making bad attempts at trying to mock or parody it. For Toradora, I think it deviated a bit from the cliche by having a character design that could be considered moe paired with Taiga's abrasive, violent personality. Kannagi was one of the better efforts at trying to subvert moe cliches without falling into it in the process. Namely with the in-universe magical girl show and Zange-chan's (is that her name?) duplicity in appearing to act cute or air-headed in public to gain worshipers, yet acting another way in private, among the cast.
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Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 2718
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:12 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:


Where do people get these silly ideas? Space Dandy isn't anything anti-moe, it appears to just be a rehash of Cobra with even more wackiness added in. It's not going to be your lord and savior of anime: Cowboy Bebop II. Even if it's a success, I kind of doubt it'll be anything that can shape the industry towards a new direction, anime's too interconnected with manga, visual novels, and light novels for those shows you don't like to not also be adapted. As long as semi-popular LNs continue to be published, so will adaptations be made from them.


Space Dandy has some moe characters too.(atleast to me). I think Moe is a feeling like "love".
And kind of fan service too based on the trailers.
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Echo_City



Joined: 03 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:37 am Reply with quote
The "cherubic, under-aged looking female characters" can't get out of anime fast enough. I can't wait for the return of high school-aged and adult female characters universally look their age, instead of looking like they just walked out of an elementary school class.

Beyond the Boundary was the thumbnail for this article. The biggest reason that I couldn't get into the show was the "moeblob" artstyle: when the protagonist extolls the attractiveness of the depicted female lead it made me feel "skeeved out" and wonder if he's supposed to be a pedophile. I had to consciously remind myself that such probably isn't the case and that this female character is supposed to be an of-age, actually-attractive-to-non-pedos character. It would be easier if they'd just draw the characters that way, damn.

...when the shows start bringing out the racy fanservice scenes for their "cherubic, under-age looking" female characters, my stomach starts bringing my lunch back out. Damn the japanese otaku oligarchy and its hive-minded fascination with scarcely-closeted pedophilia. At least some of them hit across the age spectrum, so we get a decent amount of fanservice shows for those of us who don't have making a sex offender registry set as a life goal.

In A Certain Magical Index there's a loli who is precocious and is thus capable of functioning as an adult in the show's society. That might as well be the case, the "backstory", of virtually every female character in every show made nowadays. IMO this "pedo-pandering" has gone too far.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:44 am Reply with quote
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But I do hope we see less dating sim-inspired "girls of different types do cute things pointlessly" shows, because lord knows we have enough of those.
Aren't those "cute girls doing pointless cute things" shows based on manga, particularly 4-panel ones? VN/dating-sim adaptations generally have (A) a male lead, and (B) some sort of romance-driven plot arc.
Echo_City wrote:
Beyond the Boundary was the thumbnail for this article. The biggest reason that I couldn't get into the show was the "moeblob" artstyle: when the protagonist extolls the attractiveness of the depicted female lead it made me feel "skeeved out" and wonder if he's supposed to be a pedophile. I had to consciously remind myself that such probably isn't the case and that this female character is supposed to be an of-age, actually-attractive-to-non-pedos character. It would be easier if they'd just draw the characters that way, damn.
How can the male lead be a pedophile when he's the same age as the girl? Do you even know the actual definition of pedophilia?
Wikipedia wrote:
A psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13). An adolescent who is 16 years of age or older must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child before the attraction can be diagnosed as pedophilia.

Quote:
I can't wait for the return of high school-aged and adult female characters universally look their age, instead of looking like they just walked out of an elementary school class.
Welcome to Japan, where the women tend to be shorter in height and smaller in the chest than their Western counterparts.
Quote:
IMO this "pedo-pandering" has gone too far.
Someone's been spending too much time at a certain formerly-useful tropes site, which apparently defines pedophilia as "any sexual or romantic attraction to or among any person(s) under age 20."
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Echo_City



Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 1236

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:52 am Reply with quote
When the girl looks as she does in Beyond the Boundary, I have extreme difficulty in believing that she's actually the same age as the highschool-age male lead. This brings me back to the "many female characters in today's anime might as well just be written as mentally precocious lolis in the story as it would be easier to believe based upon their character designs" idea to which Index introduced me.

Your snarky comment about Japanese women being more petite than their "Western counterparts" doesn't even begin to address the issue that I brought up as Japanese women may be more petite but I've yet to wonder if any whom I have seen were actually elementary-school aged girls. Besides, the actual article on which we are commenting explicitly acknowledges the existence of "cherubic, under-aged looking female character designs" and implicitly acknowledges their ubiquity in today's anime. Your quest to argue that such designs don't exist can't get very far until you at least get the text of this article rewritten. Just FYI.
Zalis116 wrote:
Someone's been spending too much time at a certain formerly-useful tropes site, which apparently defines pedophilia as "any sexual or romantic attraction to or among any person(s) under age 20."

Well that's a ball of assumptions, all of which are bogus.

All the argument in the world won't get rid of the feeling of skeeviness that emanates from my subconscious when an anime series presents me with a loli-looking character and starts discussing said character's carnal appeal.
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ZodiacBeast



Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:46 am Reply with quote
I can deal with the stereotypical idea of "moe" (that of being overly cute) as long as I enjoy the rest of the show.

For example, the cuteness of the characters from Hidamari Sketch meshes with the overall light hearted feel of the show and helps me enjoy it just a little more than if they had been drawn more realistically. But with a show like K-On! which I didn't find that enjoyable the generic cuteness that permeates the show didn't appeal to me.

The point I'm trying to make is that I believe that "moe" as I already described it can be enjoyable if it is only part of a show's arsenal, but not when it's the only thing a show is known for.

It's similar to my view on the whole "harem" genre. I believe that (if) I find a traditional harem type show that I enjoy it will not focus 100% on the fact that one guy has a bajillion girls hanging off of him but also on other factors as well. I like Index and Kami Nomi, both of which contain a harem but never really seemed to shove it in my face. It's a major plot point in Kami Nomi but I never found myself rolling my eyes whenever it was mentioned.
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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Location: Wales

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:22 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Perhaps, but it's still a shitty trade-off. Especially considering how many early 2000s fans moe alienated.

So, how many was that again?

Quote:
It put industries in both countries in the unfair position of having to re-introduce and re-invent anime to general audiences, simply to let casual viewers know that most anime is not like that otaku crap. So thanks, moe. You succeeded where tentacle rape failed in turning off people from anime.

Funny you should say that, considering Urotsukidoji sold more copies in the UK than most anime can ever hope to.
Wonder how much we'd have to bribe the tabloids to do a new "ban this sick filth" article about Strike Witches or something....
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