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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 3324
Location: Bloomington, MN
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 Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:11 pm |
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| penguintruth wrote: | | Keonyn wrote: | | MORE UNITELLIGABLE STUFF. |
So we have my argument, your non-analysis, my pointing out your non-analysis, and your continuining non-analysis.
Just because you say, "Well, the majority of people think that Vic captured the layers of Edward Elric, blah blah blah", doesn't make it an argument. You don't have any point other than, "Most people think it's good."
All your arguments are simple base "UH UH, YOU'RE WRONG" statements, rather than thoughtful debate. I say one thing, you simply say the opposite as your "argument". Unfortunately, that's what this entire argument has sunk into.
I didn't even want to bring up my problems with the FMA dub again to begin with, because I always get dragged into these absurd go-nowhere arguments with people who cannot provide simple analysis.
But like I said, the movie's dub is somewhat an improvement. For instance, I felt Vic geniunely cared about Edward's voice by the time it came and even managed to capture his attitude during the story. Alphonse, who I felt was one of the strong dub voices, shined even brighter.
I still prefer the original cast, however. |
Sorry, but I had "analysis" in my argument, that I even just pointed out a second time for you and you still didn't even touch on them. Now, you want to know why these are "go-nowhere" arguments actually ... go nowhere? Because your "analysis" in itself is just opinion and you saying others are wrong.
That's why they go nowhere, because there's nowhere to go. It's to different opinions, there is no fact based analysis for you to demonstrate as some provable indisputable fact, it's just your opinion that you're claiming as analysis. You're using your opinion on fact by renaming that opinion as an analysis, but in the end it's still just an opinion so the only real argument against it is to say I think you're wrong unless I decide to make up some type of factual reasoning and label my opinion as an analysis as well and play it as provable factual findings.
So you see it's just one big circle, you're here to tell people who like the dub that they're wrong and you demonstrate that by stating opinions, they then state opinions back but since they don't match yours you simply disagree, and they disagree, and everyone disagrees over and over. The main difference is I just think your points are wrong, if you like or dislike the dub isn't my concern, it's the fact that you're the one trying to tell others they're wrong. So in the end you started by doing what you're saying I'm doing, and saying your opinion is an analysis doesn't change the fact it's just a personal opinion and nothing more. |
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penguintruth
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 2491
Location: Penguinopolis
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm |
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| Zac wrote: | | The problem is that your own "analysis" runs counter to the majority opinion of the dub, which is that it is really quie excellent. |
Irrelevant. I've provided my analysis and criticism of why I dislike the FMA dub, but rarely have I found any rich endorsement of the dub that will mention just WHY it's so good.
| Quote: | | Almost none of what you said rings true to me at all, and your little snipes at people like Chris Patton, wherein you said he has no talent, to me is extremely telling. You don't like the FMA dub because you're incapable of appreciating it, not because it's a bad dub and everyone else is wrong and you're right. |
Laughably wrong. You accuse me of being incapable of enjoying the Fullmetal Alchemist dub because of preconceived notions of individual voice actors or dubs as a whole. This is incorrect. There are several anime dubs which I enjoy, and many of the VAs in Fullmetal Alchemist have done decent work in other programs. However, Chris Patton is not one of them, and I take extreme umbrage with his flat and unengaging portrayal of Greed.
| Quote: | | I mean, Vic Mignogna doesn't care about his character's voice? I'm gonna go ahead and assume you've never seen the guy talk about the role ever or ever read anything he's said about the role at all because that's just flat-out ignorance on your behalf. This is an example of you placing your own opinion of what the voice actor thinks of his role above what the voice actor has actually SAID about the role, and that's arrogance. Arrogance built on ignorance, which is the worst kind. |
Also irrelevant. His care for the character will come across in his portrayal of the character. If he didn't think he could do the character justice, he shouldn't have taken the role. If he did, and he cared, it likely wouldn't have turned out so disappointing.
And meanwhile, I've read some of what he's said about the character, and it rings hallow. Most of what VAs say about their characters seem to be a lot of fluff they do to promote themselves and their "talents". Many dub actors come off as particularly arrogant when speaking about their roles.
Perhaps I'm off-base and Vic truly cares about the character of Edward Elric and tried to show that through his performance. But nevertheless his awkward voice crackling through much of the series shows to me a lack of talent for providing that voice.
| Quote: | | Look, if you don't like the dub, great, that's totally your perrogative. But to make big sweeping statements like yours which insinuate that everyone who likes the dub - which is the VAST majority of people - is "wrong" and that the characters sound "flat" - is pretty ridiculous. If you just prefer the Japanese, fine, but don't try and "prove" that the English dub is bad. Because in this case, most everyone with a remotely reasonable or fair ear for dubs - anyone with an educated outlook - basically disagrees with you. |
Again a misinterperetation of my statements. It was Key who asked me what I thought was a "good dub". I used FMA as an example due to the fact I had stated my distaste for it beforehand and it made sense that in a thread about the Fullmetal Alchemist movie, in which I stated the improvement of the dub over the TV series, it would be appropriate.
My "vast sweeping statements" are not as such. I made specific examples. I didn't want to detail a complete break down of the entire dub, as it would take quite a bit of time. I was merely answering Key's question.
And I would ask you to define this "education" of those people who describe the FMA as a good dub. You're clearly implying that I must have bad taste in dubs if my opinion detracts from the norm, which is itself ignorant. I have made my analysis clear and my statements are as "educated" as anyone else who provides analysis rather than the "broad-sweeping statements" you erroneously accuse me of.
As I respect your particular opinion on anime, Zac, despite on occasion disagreeing, I won't hold it against you that your reasoing in this is so flawed.
I only "prove" what opinions I have that are called into question. |
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 3324
Location: Bloomington, MN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:33 pm |
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| Quote: | | Irrelevant. I've provided my analysis and criticism of why I dislike the FMA dub, but rarely have I found any rich endorsement of the dub that will mention just WHY it's so good. |
Then I suggest you look harder.
| Quote: | | Laughably wrong. You accuse me of being incapable of enjoying the Fullmetal Alchemist dub because of preconceived notions of individual voice actors or dubs as a whole. This is incorrect. There are several anime dubs which I enjoy, and many of the VAs in Fullmetal Alchemist have done decent work in other programs. However, Chris Patton is not one of them, and I take extreme umbrage with his flat and unengaging portrayal of Greed. |
Could be laughably wrong, but since you go out of your way to bash dubs and even mention that your perceived problems are very possibly a generalized problem with all american dubs. So you enjoy several? Out of hundreds, hardly a glowing example to throw off Zac's statement. Not to mention his "flat and unengaging" portrayal is really just your opinion of it, I thought he did a fine job, but none the less he's still a minor character with a small role and really holds little weight in the over dubs judgement.
| Quote: | | Also irrelevant. His care for the character will come across in his portrayal of the character. If he didn't think he could do the character justice, he shouldn't have taken the role. If he did, and he cared, it likely wouldn't have turned out so disappointing. |
This comment is also irrevelant, since it is simply your opinion that it didn't come across in the character and not an actual fact. If you're trying to prove that the dub is bad and people are wrong for liking it then you're going to have to base this on something more than opinion and conjecture.
| Quote: | And meanwhile, I've read some of what he's said about the character, and it rings hallow. Most of what VAs say about their characters seem to be a lot of fluff they do to promote themselves and their "talents". Many dub actors come off as particularly arrogant when speaking about their roles.
Perhaps I'm off-base and Vic truly cares about the character of Edward Elric and tried to show that through his performance. But nevertheless his awkward voice crackling through much of the series shows to me a lack of talent for providing that voice. |
And I hear what dub bashers like yourself say and in rings hallow to me. Seems many people will say anything and pretend anything is fact just to promote their self righteous ideal of how anime should be. Now the blind cynicism you use to justify your views is also laughable and sheds more light on portion above about pre-conceived notions. They don't get jobs by talking in interviews about how much they like their character or how they feel about it, nor do you gain any ground by telling everyone they're lying to promote themselves simply because I could say the opposite and neither of us can truly prove we're right or wrong. Saying something is the case doesn't make it so, and if you're not even willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt then it truly does say something about your pre-conceptions.
| Quote: | | And I would ask you to define this "education" of those people who describe the FMA as a good dub. You're clearly implying that I must have bad taste in dubs if my opinion detracts from the norm, which is itself ignorant. I have made my analysis clear and my statements are as "educated" as anyone else who provides analysis rather than the "broad-sweeping statements" you erroneously accuse me of. |
Maybe he is, but you are essentially doing the same. The difference here lies in the fact that you are still making your case as though to prove the FMA dub is poor, but you're only spouting out opinion after opinion as though this "analysis" is some type of scientific basis to measure a dubs quality. I'm afraid Zac's reasoning isn't flawed, and even if it were it's hard to keep a statement from not being flawed when the entire debate itself is flawed and the opposing parties statements are as well.
| Quote: | | I only "prove" what opinions I have that are called into question. |
You can not "prove" an opinion based on an art form that's appreciation centers around individual perception. Whether you like it or not others will view it differently, as is obviously the case here, and all you can do is continue to say over and over that you think such and such was bad and so and so was flat but ultimately that proves nothing more than that's what you think. It doesn't prove Vic didn't care about his character or his job, it doesn't prove he did it poorly either, it only proves that you think he did which is irrelevant as long as the other side doesn't see it that way. Simply, nothing makes your opinion better than theirs, and nothing makes your views fact. You didn't like it, good for you, but all that means is that you didn't like it and nothing more. Argue all you want, if others thought it was done well then they will think it was done well.
Last edited by Keonyn on Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 4532
Location: Indianapolis (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:07 pm |
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| penguintruth wrote: | | Irrelevant. I've provided my analysis and criticism of why I dislike the FMA dub, but rarely have I found any rich endorsement of the dub that will mention just WHY it's so good. |
Wow, I'm getting a sense of deja vu here. This forum hosted an argument like this in a different thead not too long ago.
Fine, then, I'll delineate why I think it's so good, especially compared to the original dub, and I'll include points I posted in my review:
1. "Roles, even new ones, are invariably well-cast and well-performed; one would have to look pretty hard to find a legitimate weak link." (Greed was not in the movie, so he can't be counted.)
2. "Those who have only seen the series via Adult Swim broadcast may find the Japanese voices for Ed and Al to sound a little too girly at times," whereas they sound not only male but more age-appropriate in the English dub. I also found nothing awkward about the voice Vic used for Ed.
3. The voice acting performances are fully emotive, especially the performances for Winry, Ed, and Al.
4. "a lot of the Japanese VAs struggle to correctly pronounce some of the Western-sounding names, especially 'Edward Elric' and 'Alphonse Elric,'" whereas the English VAs did not have this problem.
5. "The seiyuu for the role of Eckhart also can’t hold a candle to Kelly Manison when it comes to maniacal laughing" - and I don't consider that one to be a debatable point. Most of the time seiyuu trying to do maniacal laughing sound painfully forced and fake to me.
6. With the possible exception of Greed (who, again, wasn't in the movie that I can recall), the performances in virtually every case embody the essence of the character in question.
7. There was real chemistry between many of the important roles, and that's especially hard to do with American-style dubbing.
Now granted, many of these interpretations are subjective, but this is the "proof" I offer for my statement of the dub's quality - and again, I did say most of that in the review. Whether you agree with these statements or not, if this doesn't satisfy you as an explanation for the "dub is good" crowd, penguintruth, then I have no idea what you're wanting to see. |
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penguintruth
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 2491
Location: Penguinopolis
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:40 pm |
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I hope Keonyn is paying attention. That is how to debate somebody.
A very respectable argument, thank you, Key. I respectfully still disagree with you about the quality of the Fullmetal Alchemist's English dub cast, but I actually wasn't disagreeing with the quality of the movie's dub.
As you might recall, I praised the improvement of the performace over the television series. I felt like a lot of akwardness that was still lingering in the voices even after 51 episodes of the television series had been mostly dissapated. Perhaps I failed to notice how far the main cast had improved from the beginning of the series to the end, but I certainly didn't find it a consistently strong performance.
Since the homunucli were either off the table or largely silent throughout the movie, I didn't have any complaints there, and since there was a lot of strength in the voices of the new characters, I was impressed how far it came.
I would disagree about the point made about Ed and Al's voices being "too girly". To the contrary, Vic Mignona's voice was inappropraite for Ed because I felt he didn't sound like a child at all. Alphonse's English VA was exceptional in what I felt a large number of ininspired casting choices (just because fans like Scott McNeil and Tiffany Grant, doesn't make her a good Marta or him a good Hohenheim Elric). For some reason, he seems more appropriate to voice the slightly older Edward that's presented in the movie.
However, my original statements of what I find to be a "good dub" and how I judge it are my answer to your question, and I'm disappointed that they were misinterpreted as an attack on the dub. |
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 3324
Location: Bloomington, MN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:31 pm |
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I'm well aware of how to debate, I simply do not debate when there's nothing to debate. I'm not going to sink down to the idea that opinions are facts, I won't, I have more integrity than that. I don't care about the debate, you haven't understood that yet? Because this is a debate that attempts to make opinion out to be fact, to prove that ones individual perception and "analysis" represents some form of provable fact.
I really hope it is you who pays attention, because so far you haven't quite figured it out. Now, doesn't this somewhat prove my point on the futility of it all? So Key did a great job debating you, made his points so well and look ..... nothing happened. Nothing, not ... a ... thing. You know why? Because it's still just opinion, and whether he words it well or not doesn't matter because you don't see it that way and that's not going to change. So, as you said earlier, it goes around and around in circles because you're debating something that has no factual basis and is simply the individual perception of an art form. As long as you insist that only your opinion is correct, then everything will continue to be just as futile. |
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penguintruth
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 2491
Location: Penguinopolis
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:49 pm |
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| Keonyn wrote: | I'm well aware of how to debate, I simply do not debate when there's nothing to debate. I'm not going to sink down to the idea that opinions are facts, I won't, I have more integrity than that. I don't care about the debate, you haven't understood that yet? Because this is a debate that attempts to make opinion out to be fact, to prove that ones individual perception and "analysis" represents some form of provable fact.
I really hope it is you who pays attention, because so far you haven't quite figured it out. Now, doesn't this somewhat prove my point on the futility of it all? So Key did a great job debating you, made his points so well and look ..... nothing happened. Nothing, not ... a ... thing. You know why? Because it's still just opinion, and whether he words it well or not doesn't matter because you don't see it that way and that's not going to change. So, as you said earlier, it goes around and around in circles because you're debating something that has no factual basis and is simply the individual perception of an art form. As long as you insist that only your opinion is correct, then everything will continue to be just as futile. |
You don't know what a debate is, do you? Just admit it.
A debate is ABOUT opinions. The point of a debate isn't to radically change another person's mind but to support your opinion with relevant and thoughtful analysis, which Key and I (to a certain degree) have done.
"You can't debate opinions!" is ludicrous. That's what a debate is for! It's facts that you can't debate - they're facts. |
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TurnerJ
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Highland Park, NJ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:04 am |
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I thought the FMA dub for the series was five-star material awesome. It really earned FUNIMATION my respect. All the cast members gave excellent performances, and I could hardly find a weak link. If anything, I think the FuniMation staff deserve kudos for their hard work. (The cast and crew have publically made it clear to their fans that they really cared about the show.)
As far as that guy who dislikes the FMA dub, such comments I have heard are no different from other dubs that I have enjoyed--the Ghibli-Disney dubs, Lodoss OVA, Slayers, Nadia, Gokudo, Outlaw Star, Akira 2001... the list goes on and on. And I fail to understand how anybody could find these dubs "flat" or "emotionless." OK, maybe not all the voices in these dubs are perfect, but even the less perfect voices are still good enough. And for the most part, I DO hear emotion and good acting.
Seriously, it's not worth posting arguments against the guy who dislikes the dub... or anyone who dislikes dubs in general; they won't listen to reason. If you like dubs that's all that matters.
-Jon T. |
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Kouji
Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 978
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:35 am |
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| Zac wrote: |
The problem is that your own "analysis" runs counter to the majority opinion of the dub, which is that it is really quie excellent. You'd have a hard time finding any legitimate media sources or paid critics or even critics who have enough public cache to be taken seriously enough to write for a major website who would remotely agree with any of your comments about this dub.
I mean, Vic Mignogna doesn't care about his character's voice? I'm gonna go ahead and assume you've never seen the guy talk about the role ever or ever read anything he's said about the role at all because that's just flat-out ignorance on your behalf. This is an example of you placing your own opinion of what the voice actor thinks of his role above what the voice actor has actually SAID about the role, and that's arrogance. Arrogance built on ignorance, which is the worst kind.
Look, if you don't like the dub, great, that's totally your perrogative. But to make big sweeping statements like yours which insinuate that everyone who likes the dub - which is the VAST majority of people - is "wrong" and that the characters sound "flat" - is pretty ridiculous. If you just prefer the Japanese, fine, but don't try and "prove" that the English dub is bad. Because in this case, most everyone with a remotely reasonable or fair ear for dubs - anyone with an educated outlook - basically disagrees with you. |
So, because someone's opinion runs counter to what the majority of people think about something that automatically means their opinion is right and the other is wrong? I fail to see the logic in that. Just because the vast majority of people feel one way about the quality of a product than another person does doesn't mean that product is neccessarily good. It simply means that the vast majority of the people have a different opinion about the product than the other person does. Here's an example. Britney Spears is a popular singer who has a lot of fans, but does that mean she's actually a good singer just because a lot of people like her? The other problem with this viewpoint that the majority opinion is always right is that in the case of FMA the vast majority of fans who watch the FMA dub are n00bie anime fans who only watch the mainstream anime on Cartoon Network and who hate subtitled anime in general, so their opinion on this isn't any more helpful than the purists fans. And if we always went by what the majority opinion was on the quality of a dub as proof of what that dub's quality was like, then that must mean the Naruto dub is terrible because the vast majority of Naruto fans hate the dub. Now if FMA was a less popular title and had a more niche market with a more even number of dub and sub fans who watch the series and the majority of the people still prefered the FMA dub over the sub, then I might be able to see where you're coming from, but because the vast majority of FMA fans are n00bies who only watch mainstream anime on Cartoon Network and hate subtitled anime in general to begin with, you can't use that as proof that "OMG, the FMA dub is popular, therefore it must be good!"
As for my own opinion, I personally found the FMA dub to be very dissappointing. If the FMA fans who have only watched the series via Adult Swim may find Ed's Japanese VA to be too "girly", then naturally one should expect that some of the FMA fans who have watched the series subbed may find Ed's dub VA to be too deep, and I fall into the latter category here. I personally thought Ed's dub VA sounded too old for most of the series. It was fine in the movie where he's the approiate age for that type of voice, but throughout the series Ed is still anywhere from a preteen to a young teen. In fact, at the beginning of the anime, he's only 12 years old yet in the dub he still sounds like he's 18 and I've never met a 12 year old boy who sounds like an 18 year old before, have you? I prefer Paku Romi-san as Ed over Vic because if one actually pays any attention to the voices, you can tell that his Japanese voice matures with Ed's age as the series progresses. At the start of the show, Ed begins with a feminine voice which fits the role of a 12 year old kid who would still sound rather squeaky, but as he gets older the voice becomes deeper yet still retains Ed's youthfulness. This change of tone in his voice not only gives Ed's growth a more life-like feeling to it but it also shows just how much Ed has matured since the start of the series. Vic, on the other hand, sounds the same the entire series no matter how old Ed gets, and part of that life-likeness that Paku-san brought to the role is lost in the translation.
I also think that Paku-san does a better job of bringing out Ed's emotion. To use an example, in the scene where Ed kills Greed, when Paku-san screams in the Japanese version, she does this nice echoey effect as if Ed's scream was so intense his voice is echoing through the halls of Dante's mansion. However, in the dub, while the scene is decent enough, the emotional intensity that Paku-san brought to the original is lost simply because Vic's screams lack that neat echoey effect that gave the scene so much life-likeness to it in the original and it just sounds like any ordinary scream with no emotional intensity to it at all. That particular moment in the series always makes me cry whenever I watch it in the Japanese version but I never cry or feel any such emotion of sadness when I watch it in the dub because the dub scene's "emotion" just sounds so generic in comparision.
I do agree that Vic is clearly enthuastic about his role from what I saw in the FMA dub VA interviews and he seemed to have a lot of fun playing the role of Ed, but just because a dub VA is enthuastic about their role doesn't mean they did a good job with it because from all the interviews I've seen on anime DVDs and such, almost all the dub VAs interviewed have been very enthuastic about their part and obviously not all dub VAs are good. What annoys me the most about Ed's dub VA is that not only does Ed sound too old for a 13 year old for the majority of the series (the expection being the movie dub where he's older), but that in the movie Al is also 13 yet his voice still has a very youthful-like quality to it even though Ed sounded so old in the series when he was the same age through the majority of it. Funi was obviously able enough to find an approiate voice that can make children characters actually sound like children as proven by Al, but for some reason it was difficult for them to do so with Ed? Why? Not only do I not like Ed's dub VA but I find that Funi's decisions are very inconsisent because they gave Ed a more "manly" sounding voice in the series when he was only 13 yet Al still sounds very childish in the movie dub when he's only 13 in the movie. If Funi is going to give 13 year old anime characters deeper voices, they should at least be consistent with the rest of the 13 year olds in the show.
But while Al's dub VA was one of the better ones, even he fell short in that he sounded more snobbish to me rather than innocent-like as he should. For example, in the movie when he tells Rose that he transferred a piece of his soul into the suits of armor, in the Japanese version he just said it as a matter of fact, but because of the tone of his voice in the dub, it makes him sound more like he's bragging about it in the dub version and I feel like he always had that bragging-like sound to his voice in the dub and it always annoyed me because it doesn't fit with Al's more innocent personality. In fact, I think Al's dub VA probably would've fitted Ed more than Al because it fits Ed's bragging personality more than it does Al's childlike innocence, but that's just me.
All the female characters also sound far too old for their ages, especially Winry who sounds more like a whiny old granny than a bitchy teenage girl. Even Envy suffers from old granny syndrome in the dub rather than sounding like a psychotic maniac killer. Most of the other dub VAs sound decent enough but they all have this tackiness about them that rubs me in the wrong way. I also love the Japanese version more because it has my all-time favorite Japanese VA, Mitsuishi Kotono-san as Gracia, who is most famous for her roles as Usagi in Sailor Moon and Misato in NGE.
I appriecate that the FMA dub is uncut and that it has an accurate translation and I can see that Funi has indeed come a long way with their dubs, but it takes more than an uncut dub with an accurate script to make a good dub. Having a good selection of dub VAs is just as important and while the FMA dub VA cast is decent enough for the mainstream popcorn crowd who doesn't care about dubs being 100% perfect, there's nothing about it that stands out as being special to me. I find it to be too generic and lacking in the emotional quality of the Japanese version, and although it proves that the quality of dubs has come a long way, I still can't say that it's one of the best dubs ever. And you can't say that it's because of the version I saw first that I hate the dub either, because I saw the FMA dub first on Cartoon Network and even before I saw the Japanese version, the dub VAs always annoyed me. In fact, when I saw the dub first, I didn't see what was so special about FMA, and I actually almost gave up on the series because I couldn't stand the dub VAs, but after I went back and started over from the beginning through the Japanese version, I quickly fell in love with this anime and now FMA is my favorite series. Of course, this is just my opinion and I don't expect everybody to agree with me. I just wanted to add in my two cents into this debate about the FMA dub. |
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 4532
Location: Indianapolis (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:59 pm |
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| Kouji wrote: | | The other problem with this viewpoint that the majority opinion is always right is that in the case of FMA the vast majority of fans who watch the FMA dub are n00bie anime fans who only watch the mainstream anime on Cartoon Network and who hate subtitled anime in general, so their opinion on this isn't any more helpful than the purists fans. And if we always went by what the majority opinion was on the quality of a dub as proof of what that dub's quality was like, then that must mean the Naruto dub is terrible because the vast majority of Naruto fans hate the dub. Now if FMA was a less popular title and had a more niche market with a more even number of dub and sub fans who watch the series and the majority of the people still prefered the FMA dub over the sub, then I might be able to see where you're coming from, but because the vast majority of FMA fans are n00bies who only watch mainstream anime on Cartoon Network and hate subtitled anime in general to begin with, you can't use that as proof that "OMG, the FMA dub is popular, therefore it must be good!" |
I bold-faced the parts I'm specifically responding to. What you're missing here is that there's a lot of veteran fans who also like the dub. Sure, the dub has its detractors, but in this forum alone I've seen people who normally don't like dubs speak favorably about this one. If that's not support for a dub being good because of its widely-recognized quality (instead of just because it's popular) then I don't know what is.
Despite many disagreements, I don't have issue with the rest of your post because you do make it clear that it's just your opinion and not fact. And while I'll agree that Ed sounds too old in the episodes where he's younger, I didn't have as much of a problem with that because he's always portrayed as being mature beyond his years. (Well, except for going crazy over being called short. . .) |
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 3324
Location: Bloomington, MN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:24 pm |
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Hmmm, it appears the forums have had a bit of a change.
| Quote: | You don't know what a debate is, do you? Just admit it.
A debate is ABOUT opinions. The point of a debate isn't to radically change another person's mind but to support your opinion with relevant and thoughtful analysis, which Key and I (to a certain degree) have done.
"You can't debate opinions!" is ludicrous. That's what a debate is for! It's facts that you can't debate - they're facts. |
Anyways, allow me to go a bit more in depth for you. You're right, debates are about opinions, however, you can't debate something that is entirely opinion based on individual perception and appreciation because the facts you present are only facts to yourself. You dislike it, you thought the performances were flat, you think Patton doesn't act well. These are all subjective opinions based on your perception, but they're not fact to anyone else. You can't carry a debate without anything tangible to bring to the table to make your argument and without anything to back yourself up.
Other issues you have facts and evidence to lay out. You think one politician has done poorly and the other side thinks they did good, each is an opinion but an opinion with some type of factual evidence to toss out to support that opinion. This is an art form, the appreciation of which is solely dependent on the individual because that's simply what art is, so your entire opinion is based on how you saw it and felt about it as an individual with no fact to draw on. You thought they were flat, that's your perception of their performance, others disagree, neither is a fact they're just how you felt about it as an individual. You think Patton is a poor actor, that's not a fact either, it's just how you perceived his performance and how much or how little you appreciated it. So you can debate opinion, but you can't really debate it when that opinion is only backed up by opinion and there's nothing to lay out in support of any of it. |
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TurnerJ
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Highland Park, NJ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:26 pm |
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| Keonyn wrote: | Hmmm, it appears the forums have had a bit of a change.
| Quote: | You don't know what a debate is, do you? Just admit it.
A debate is ABOUT opinions. The point of a debate isn't to radically change another person's mind but to support your opinion with relevant and thoughtful analysis, which Key and I (to a certain degree) have done.
"You can't debate opinions!" is ludicrous. That's what a debate is for! It's facts that you can't debate - they're facts. |
Anyways, allow me to go a bit more in depth for you. You're right, debates are about opinions, however, you can't debate something that is entirely opinion based on individual perception and appreciation because the facts you present are only facts to yourself. You dislike it, you thought the performances were flat, you think Patton doesn't act well. These are all subjective opinions based on your perception, but they're not fact to anyone else. You can't carry a debate without anything tangible to bring to the table to make your argument and without anything to back yourself up.
Other issues you have facts and evidence to lay out. You think one politician has done poorly and the other side thinks they did good, each is an opinion but an opinion with some type of factual evidence to toss out to support that opinion. This is an art form, the appreciation of which is solely dependent on the individual because that's simply what art is, so your entire opinion is based on how you saw it and felt about it as an individual with no fact to draw on. You thought they were flat, that's your perception of their performance, others disagree, neither is a fact they're just how you felt about it as an individual. You think Patton is a poor actor, that's not a fact either, it's just how you perceived his performance and how much or how little you appreciated it. So you can debate opinion, but you can't really debate it when that opinion is only backed up by opinion and there's nothing to lay out in support of any of it. |
That's how it is with just about ANY forum post about ANY dub. While there are some dubs which many would say are "dire", other folks may find them to be good. It's one thing that I've found out about such opinions on the net--it's merely a preference of the individual, not factual.
-Jon T. |
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v1cious
Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 3870
Location: Fresno, TX
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:27 am |
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i just watched the dub version of this for the first time last night, and i have to say i was really bothered by it.
don't get me wrong, the usual players did a good job, but it felt like Funimation just got really lazy. i mean come on, would it have killed them to at least try to make it authentic? most of the movie takes place in Nazi Germany, and everyone has perfect english accents for crying out loud-even the Nazis! i know they're just a dub company, but it wouldn't have hurt to at least try to emulate the accents. ADV manages to do it well. |
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bluepita
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 465
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:35 pm |
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I hate the whole dub debate, so I won't get into that. However, I did want to comment on whether Vic cares about the character, Ed, or not. I have only seen him speak a couple of times, but he seemed as crazy about Ed as any fanboy out there. I went to a panel of his that had nothing to do with FMA and watched him shows off all the neat Ed merchandise he bought int he dealer's room. He was cute as a button in his excitement.
As for the movie, I thought it was ok. The plot about Hitler didn't bother me too badly, except I kept thinking, are all these people going to die because one person wants to go home?? Lol, worrying about it kind of ruined the movie for me in some ways, but I am a bit crazy like that.
There were several things I did not like about the movie, though. I found the ending of series enjoyable and satisfying. It wasn't the normal happy ending, but it felt complete, like the infamous ending of Cowboy BeBop. While I knew the movie would change the ending, most of it felt a bit like a cheat. They go on and on about equivalent exchange in the series, but I didn't necessarily see that balance in the ending of the movie. Oh, I understood the twist that allowed it, but I felt it ignored much of the 'rules' in the series. I suppose I just wanted more consistency and less fairy tale ending.
This bothered me in other places, too. I just felt like they tried to make everyone happy by fixing the sad parts of the series. For instance, the death of Hughes was such an important emotional part of the series, going back and giving him a fairly happy ending felt like a cop out to make the fans happy. I would have liked less of 'making the fans happy' and more depth true to the series.[/spoiler] |
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Seif
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:35 am |
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| v1cious wrote: | i just watched the dub version of this for the first time last night, and i have to say i was really bothered by it.
don't get me wrong, the usual players did a good job, but it felt like Funimation just got really lazy. i mean come on, would it have killed them to at least try to make it authentic? most of the movie takes place in Nazi Germany, and everyone has perfect english accents for crying out loud-even the Nazis! i know they're just a dub company, but it wouldn't have hurt to at least try to emulate the accents. ADV manages to do it well. |
That seems real picky, as it seems that no one questions that everyone in an anime speaks perfect Japanese no matter when are where the story is set.
I'm not trying to be mean, I mean it's always nice when the dub goes out of it's way to do that, but it not really nessary.
| Quote: | | I hate the whole dub debate, so I won't get into that. However, I did want to comment on whether Vic cares about the character, Ed, or not. I have only seen him speak a couple of times, but he seemed as crazy about Ed as any fanboy out there. I went to a panel of his that had nothing to do with FMA and watched him shows off all the neat Ed merchandise he bought int he dealer's room. He was cute as a button in his excitement. |
It’s obvious that those who claim he only acts like he cares for the PR don’t know what they are talking about. Anyone who's seen the bonus disc for the FMA movie can defiantly confirm his passion for the show. He even became a bit choked up talking about what happened at the end of the series. Just another reason why Vic is one of the coolest guys in the business. |
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