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The Mike Toole Show - Anime Gets Sloppy


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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 924
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Crest of the Stars has some interesting quality issues. It's pretty clear that different subcontracting studios had wildly varying interpretations of the character model sheets -- they show up pretty well in the details of the uniforms -- but because of the way the show's structured with a lot of characters not directly interacting, each character largely winds up being drawn by the same studio and the actual inconsistency is much lower than you'd expect.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2377
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Before the Pain incident, a lot of fans made fun of the Naruto vs. Sasuke episode. I've never seen past the part of the first anime where they did the time skip in the manga, nor have I seen Shippuden much, but the one Naruto vs. Sasuke episode is one of the most memorable animated moments in all of anime for me.
On the one hand, many individual frames looked really weird and even in animated form, some of their faces took punches like rubber. But overall, it was a very impressively animated scene that nothing else has ever matched since for me.
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normajean19



Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 81
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Psycho-pass episodes 17 and 18 I think had some pretty bad animation problems. So much so that I think it was the director who came out and publicly apologized for it and the episodes were redone completely for home video.
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Philmister978



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 301
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:51 pm Reply with quote
Beltane70 wrote:
In the case of the original Macross series, most of the animation errors happened in the episodes that were farmed out to other studios, particularly the studio, Anime Friend.


If I remember correctly, one of Anime Friend's errors actually became canon in the Robotech universe.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4566
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:02 pm Reply with quote
Now that I think about it, one of the best examples that comes to mind of some low-grade animation really killing a certain episode was the "Elegy of Entrapment" two-parter in Samurai Champloo (episodes 20-21). The first half is one of the best-looking in the entire series, with everyone staying on-model and moving just fine. But then comes part 2, and, well...it looks like that episode was farmed off to Manglobe's D-team, because it's a massive nosedive. Everyone's way off-model, the animation is jerky and spastic, and the whole thing's just generally a mess. The worst thing about it is that the episode itself is great, and there are a couple of fight scenes that should have looked absolutely amazing...except they didn't. If there absolutely had to be one of those episodes that wasn't up to snuff, I really wish it had been the first part, so that the second could have lived up to its potential.
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uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:18 pm Reply with quote
I don't think this article will wash away the years of Theron Martin reviews but hey, not a bad idea at all!

You shouldn't have used Beck as an example of Kobayashi though, since that's downplayed Kobayashi. Maybe End of the World or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDUb5ifHuE because otherwise people will think your 'cutting corners' part refers to the 'ugliness' of the episode (which was intentional).
RyanSaotome wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:
RyanSaotome wrote:
Thats fine and all, but I value consistent character models and art over fluid animation. It doesn't matter how fluid it is in the art looks like shit in the process.


Where does it actually look bad? We've established that the cut of Pain punching the ground is drawn in a grotesque manner to convey the character's disgusted reaction. It only "looks like shit" because it doesn't reflect another episode (no episode in the series looks the same as another), not because it's actually drawn poorly.


You're looking far too deep into a battle shonen fight. And just look at the article, thats where it looks bad. There are tons of frames that look hideous and totally off model. And thats not even mentioning the stupid direction of the episode that made him get hammered into the ground like a nail and do other Looney Toon esque things that completely ruined the immersion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTYNhgPdGQc

It was supposed to be one of the one most epic moments of the entire anime up to that point. Its like Goku vs. Frieza or Luffy vs Rob Lucci. But... we get this mess where the animators felt they were more important then the actual content.

The problem is that Naruto fans can't say "this is very well done, but the style should not have been used for a serious episodes". They straight to the lowest shelf with their commentary, saying "this is badly drawn trash and the average episode is drawn and animated better". That's ridiculous incorrect.

And then you end up with the general anime fan opinion that aesthetics like that are inherently bad regardless of context. You get ANN giving stuff like Shin Chan low scores in art and animation, you get people calling stuff like Shoka "horribly animated trash". Maybe if your problem is the art style, you should freaking SAY THAT instead of going on about how it's actually a poorly done work.

I don't even think the "my pain is greater than yours" sequence and the face-punch were that well-done - but that's not because they were "ugly". I just think the timing looked off. They could have been just as ugly and still looked great! The rest of the episode however was mostly freaking fantastic with some of the most fun action animation I've seen in anime.

Also, One Piece? Dude, I'd freaking LOVE it if One Piece had this kind of animation. One Piece already doesn't take itself as seriously as Naruto. I think the OP fans who take OP too seriously that they get mad at loose animation are on par with the people who treat Lupin III as a serious crime series.
Top Gun wrote:
Now that I think about it, one of the best examples that comes to mind of some low-grade animation really killing a certain episode was the "Elegy of Entrapment" two-parter in Samurai Champloo (episodes 20-21). The first half is one of the best-looking in the entire series, with everyone staying on-model and moving just fine. But then comes part 2, and, well...it looks like that episode was farmed off to Manglobe's D-team, because it's a massive nosedive. Everyone's way off-model, the animation is jerky and spastic, and the whole thing's just generally a mess. The worst thing about it is that the episode itself is great, and there are a couple of fight scenes that should have looked absolutely amazing...except they didn't. If there absolutely had to be one of those episodes that wasn't up to snuff, I really wish it had been the first part, so that the second could have lived up to its potential.

I just looked through episode 21 and I have no idea what you're talking about.

are you upset that Mugen has more facial definition here or what
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GVman



Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 729
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:01 pm Reply with quote
uguu wrote:

The problem is that Naruto fans can't say "this is very well done, but the style should not have been used for a serious episodes". They straight to the lowest shelf with their commentary, saying "this is badly drawn trash and the average episode is drawn and animated better". That's ridiculous incorrect.

And then you end up with the general anime fan opinion that aesthetics like that are inherently bad regardless of context. You get ANN giving stuff like Shin Chan low scores in art and animation, you get people calling stuff like Shoka "horribly animated trash". Maybe if your problem is the art style, you should freaking SAY THAT instead of going on about how it's actually a poorly done work.

I don't even think the "my pain is greater than yours" sequence and the face-punch were that well-done - but that's not because they were "ugly". I just think the timing looked off. They could have been just as ugly and still looked great! The rest of the episode however was mostly freaking fantastic with some of the most fun action animation I've seen in anime.


I'm a Naruto and I absolutely love Atsushi Wakabayashi. I can get people not liking the style, but I don't get the hate his famous episodes get. I'd love to see this guy and Yoshimichi Kameda work a new Grappler Baki or Fist of the North Star anime.

Now, if you really want some sakuga hokai, watch this scene from Macross.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:47 pm Reply with quote
JacobYBM wrote:


From what I remember hearing, Director Murata Kazuya specifically wanted the animation to be rough so that the animators' passion came through clearer. You can see this a lot with Kameda Yoshimichi's cuts. With Kameda you can feel a strong visual level of storytelling through his thick brush strokes. If Kameda isn't the best animator to work on the franchise I would say Tanaka Hironori is. What he did for the TV series is perhaps even more insane then Kameda, considering he was also working on other titles at the time.


I cant imagine anyone looking at those scenes Kameda did for the Herschel fight scene or the Wolf Chimera fight scene and come to the conclusion that the movie was somehow rushed or that it looked bad. I mean the only excuse is to flat out admit that you were not paying attention to the movie so you didn't understand what the animators were actually accomplishing.

I am looking at just the way the wolf Chimera moves in this movie and the speed and grace is simply amazing.
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Zhou-BR



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1419
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:48 pm Reply with quote
The worst instances of QUALITY I had to endure lately were the Saint Seiya Omega episodes with animation direction by Yoshitaka Yashima. What's worse is that no matter how terrible his work is, he keeps getting assigned major episodes like 77 (the end of the New Cloth arc) and 86 (the one where the main characters' Cloths got new power-ups).

Revel in the fluidity of his animation and the beauty of his off-model artwork:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmaR2zuwvck
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:55 pm Reply with quote
I don't mind if an anime wants to use a creative animation style or have novel character designs. Windy Tales is a case in point; it's nothing but intentionally off-model animation (for the characters at least) and yet I really dig the designs. However, I would not have been happy had that style been featured for one episode in an otherwise 'normally' animated show.

Immersion is important, folks. Either have trippy animation and wacky character designs all the time or none at all.
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Krotchstak



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 94
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:18 pm Reply with quote
I've been kind of on the fence about the Anohana movie ever since I heard it was the series, but from Menma's perspective; not only did that feel extremely lazy, but Menma herself was one of my least favourite aspects of the series and I always felt it would have been just that much better if she herself existed only as a memory. Same series, just no actual appearance of her. This makes it sound like something a bit more interesting, although 60% seems like quite a lot of "story digest" for a movie that will mostly be seen by people who saw the series.
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uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:27 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
I don't mind if an anime wants to use a creative animation style or have novel character designs. Windy Tales is a case in point; it's nothing but intentionally off-model animation (for the characters at least) and yet I really dig the designs. However, I would not have been happy had that style been featured for one episode in an otherwise 'normally' animated show.

Immersion is important, folks. Either have trippy animation and wacky character designs all the time or none at all.

But one of the best things about anime visuals is that they don't have to be super-consistent. Just look at the many ways that Simon is drawn in the final episode of Gurren Lagann depending on the mood of the scene and the animator. I know what you mean but you seem to place too much importance on 'immersion' when anime has always been open about being 'moving drawings', while Western animated features go for the 'illusion of life' thing.

There can also be a clear story/atmosphere-related reason for an episode looking different. So given that the manga art was super-serious, I can see how 167 may have gone too far for some; but at the same time I think it's ridiculous when people say the episode is technically poor.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:35 pm Reply with quote
uguu wrote:
But one of the best things about anime visuals is that they don't have to be super-consistent.


Oh, I do agree with you. I like experiencing different styles and the richness that anime has to offer. It's just that I prefer variation to be series-to-series, not episode-to-episode.
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uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:40 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
uguu wrote:
But one of the best things about anime visuals is that they don't have to be super-consistent.


Oh, I do agree with you. I like experiencing different styles and the richness that anime has to offer. It's just that I prefer variation to be series-to-series, not episode-to-episode.

So you didn't like it when FLCL did that?

My entire point was that anime doesn't have to be consistent from scene-to-scene or episode-to-episode. It's actually a good thing to be able to see the hand of the animator even if it's not as 'immersive'. Anime is rarely about creating the 'illusion of life' and it's usually not deemed 'wrong' to be able to tell that you're looking at drawings in Japanese animation production.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11306
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:19 pm Reply with quote
I love this stuff. Smile

Sometimes the errors are painfully obvious, running through entire scenes (I don't even know how you color in only half a face). Sometimes, not so much. Sometimes the characters are drawn oddly so frequently that you start to wonder if it's the actual character design.

But you can't beat the classics like rolling head Sausuke. And whatever is trying to happen here. No matter how many times I see it, it's always good for a laugh.
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