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getchman
Space Cowboy



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 9117
Location: Bedford, NH
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:22 pm Reply with quote
would anyone really stop feeling special if they owned a super limited edition of a show that cost hundreds of dollars and came in a fancy box with awesome art, a multi page art booklet, random assorted doodads, cast/crew interviews, and other assorted DVD/BD extras while someone else, like Gyt, pays $50 for just the show inside of a very simple DVD/BD case?
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Gyt Kaliba



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 712
Location: Arkansas
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:24 pm Reply with quote
Excellent point on the price comparison thing Blood-, which is part of what I'm trying to get at here, but I can't seem to get it to come out nearly as well as that. Kudos to you.

dtm42 wrote:
No doubt you are also angry at Ferrari for their cars being too expensive for the common man?Yes folks, I did just use this analogy again, because it is still relevant. Deal with it.


Maybe using a Ferrari as an example wasn't the greatest idea, but you know what? It still works, because the difference here is...you can just go buy a different kind of car if you want. But what's a fan to do if the only legal physical copy of a show they want is only available at an absurd price? I don't condone piracy, but it'd be little wonder if half of Aniplex's shows got pirated to hell.

Quote:
No fan has the right to buy anime.

If you cannot afford an AoA release or refuse to pay for it then you can still watch the anime on Crunchyroll. Not the same as collecting the show but then that is a privilege that you have to pay for and you pointedly did not pay for it.


On this, I agree with you, actually. You're right, no fan has the 'right' to buy anime. But if someone is willing to buy it, than they should have the right to not have to pay an arm and a leg to get it. The problem isn't that I or others don't want to buy the stuff - the problem is that Aniplex seemingly isn't interested in our 'piddling' money.

Quote:
Oh, and just how the hell am I supposed to watch raw episodes of Japanese?

English subtitles. You may not need them but I certainly do. A straight import from Japan is useless to me.


Okay, you got me on that one I admit. My bad. A raw copy of something would do me no good either.

Quote:
Fair point, but I also question the 'right mind' of someone willing to spend that much on a show, especially a shorter one, in one go period.


If someone is willing and able to spend a fortune on one show, hey, more power to them. It is their money, as you said. But don't expect me to fathom that mindset when there's a thousand other things more important and worthwhile that that kind of cash could be going to.

getchman wrote:
would anyone really stop feeling special if they owned a super limited edition of a show that cost hundreds of dollars and came in a fancy box with awesome art, a multi page art booklet, random assorted doodads, cast/crew interviews, and other assorted DVD/BD extras while someone else, like Gyt, pays $50 for just the show inside of a very simple DVD/BD case?


Exactly. The fact that I own the DBZ season sets sure doesn't seem to have invalidated bragging rights for fans that own the Dragon Boxes, because 1) they still have the better deal, and 2) I'm still pretty jealous. And am I the only one that for the most part wants to buy shows to enjoy them, not to wave them in the air screaming how awesome I am for having them? Cripes.
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darktruth



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:30 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:

However, anime titles are not "cars" that are available from a number of different "dealers". I can't turn my nose up at AoA's Bakemonogatari release and buy Funi's cheaper Bakemonogatari release, instead.


Except you can import an alternative cheaper if it's licensed in another country, e.g. Hanabee's AU release, and is in your language. And obtaining a multi-region Blu-ray player is rather affordable these days too.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:38 pm Reply with quote
@ darktruth - very true. I should also point out that I've made peace with AoA's prices. I just recently received both AoA's Bakemonogatari and GoS DVD LE. It's just that I get annoyed with those who think that people who do still have a problem with AoA's prices are somehow being unreasonable.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Gyt Kaliba wrote:
But if someone is willing to buy it, than they should have the right to not have to pay an arm and a leg to get it.


You say you agree with dtm's point but you still seem to have a very inaccurate view of what actually constitutes a right. No one has a right to own a piece of entertainment. Ever. If you don't want to pay the price to own it, then too freaking bad for you.

It's just so frustrating to see the same complaints over something the clearly isn't going to change. Enough people are buying AoA's releases to make the business model work for them. Complaining about it for the billionth time is just pointless.
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Mirri



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 313
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Gyt Kaliba wrote:
The fact that they actually expect people to rush out and buy $500+ box sets for a show they might not have seen yet and just want to see how good it is

I mentioned their alternative is streaming, to which you replied:
Gyt Kaliba wrote:
That's great and all, but that's still not 'owning' a copy of the show. And for those of us that live in areas where internet isn't the fastest or most stable, such as myself, streaming isn't really the best option. I'm still much more a fan of actually purchasing a physical copy of something anyway.


The original post said nothing about owning a show, just seeing how good it was. You can move the goalposts if you want, but it doesn't make your argument look any stronger. Streaming may not be the best option but at least it is an option.

It's been said already but I'll say it again: just because you want a copy does not mean you are entitled to a copy at the price that you believe is reasonable.

darktruth wrote:
Blood- wrote:

However, anime titles are not "cars" that are available from a number of different "dealers". I can't turn my nose up at AoA's Bakemonogatari release and buy Funi's cheaper Bakemonogatari release, instead.


Except you can import an alternative cheaper if it's licensed in another country, e.g. Hanabee's AU release, and is in your language. And obtaining a multi-region Blu-ray player is rather affordable these days too.


Or a PC with region-decrypting software, like SlySoft's AnyDVD HD, if you would rather go that route. I find that in many situations, if you're able to hook up your PC to your TV without much issue and you have a BD drive, it's cheaper to buy AnyDVD HD than to buy a new piece of hardware.

Also, darktruth, you are my hero.


Last edited by Mirri on Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SouthPacific



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 689
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:42 pm Reply with quote
While Gyt Kaliba seems to have a hard time grasping what Aniplex is doing, and the unique services they're providing to us western fans, i'm 100% supportive of them. They're always doing something fresh, and trying out new types of releases, instead of just playing it "safe" like another company that I won't mention. Not to mention they're pretty much giving us the Japanese standard of the releases for a price that's significantly much lower than what the Japanese would pay. And I think that's absolutely awesome.

NISA is definitely my favourite distributor in the western world, bringing not only high quality packaging & extras, as well as top notch picture quality, but all of this at a very affordable price. And yes, while they do not incorparate dubs into their releases, that's the price you have to pay. Either you have a barebones release with a dub for 59.99$ or you have a NISA release with all of the aformentioned premium items for an equal or lower price.

Personally if more companies adopted the NISA business model I know i'd spending a lot more money on anime than what i'm doing at the moment. But then again, it's kind of nice to have just NISA doing it, as gives the company a trademark Smile.

Both FUNimation & Viz Media have begun their push into the LE/Premium-type market, which I am all for. While I do not doubt Viz Media, I am concerned about the picture quality that FUNimation may bring.

If they're going to charge 90-150$ for a title, they have to amp up the video quality to match AoA/NISA. They can't for a second believe that it's going to work with washed-out colors & crappy masters, no one is going to support that type of release. And if worse comes to worst and this happens to be the case it's very likely that FUNimation will simply keep doing their regular releases instead of branching out.

And I really hope that isn't the case. I've pre-ordered the Psycho-Pass Premium Edition to show my support, but if I recieve great packaging, nice extras along with crappy masters I will most likely never buy a FUNimation title again. If they're going to charge a premium price, they're going to have to deliver a premium quality.

As for Viz Media i've already pre-orded both the K-Project LE, as well as the Ranma 1/2 LE. It looks like they're quite enthusiastic about bringing these types of quality releases to the western market, and I must say i'm equally pleased to see them do so Very Happy!


All in all I think the western market is doing quite well, and seeing companies branch out into these types of premium edition can only be a sign of good health. And the competition it brings will likely nurture the market even further Very Happy!


Last edited by SouthPacific on Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:46 pm Reply with quote
maximilianjenus wrote:
anyone else has a similar setup ?


I have my BR-enabled PC hooked up to a 32" HDTV; it's just resting on my desk like a normal monitor would be. Another (almost identical) TV is in the lounge hooked up to satellite TV; it also acts as a radio and music player. So basically, I have split my home media into into two realms; watching television or listening to music in my lounge, and watching streaming/DVDs/BRs/digital fansubs in my office. It isn't the best setup but I've gotten used to it. In fact, I don't see why people are so obsessed with having everything in one box when it is just so much hassle to do so.

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
you can just go buy a different kind of car if you want. But what's a fan to do if the only legal physical copy of a show they want is only available at an absurd price?


Watch the show using Crunchyroll. Yeah, you don't get to own a physical copy, but them's the breaks.

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
I don't condone piracy, but it'd be little wonder if half of Aniplex's shows got pirated to hell.


Well duh. Hey guess what; everything gets pirated. Even cheap FUNi releases. Even free CR streams for crying out loud. Even porn. ESPECIALLY porn, LOL. If you want to pirate an AoA release then go right ahead. No-one's gonna care, least of all AoA. They don't care about piracy as long as they can sell enough physical releases. And they do sell enough, oh yes they do.

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
But if someone is willing to buy it, than they should have the right to not have to pay an arm and a leg to get it.


What the . . . ? Your logic is nonsensical.

If someone is willing to buy something then they are explicitly willing to pay the stated price, otherwise they wouldn't be willing to buy it.

By your logic, since I'm willing to pay ten thousand dollars for a Ferrari then I should get to buy the Ferrari for ten thousand dollars, not the one hundred thousand dollars plus that it's actually worth.

No-one has the right to get something at an affordable price, unless it is a human right like water. Needless to say, Anime is not water. You have the right not to buy something if you don't want to or can't afford it. That's it, that's as far as it goes. Please stop inventing rights that don't exist except inside your head.

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
But don't expect me to fathom that mindset...


No-one asked you to fathom it, just to accept their decision.
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2171
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:03 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
A person who lives in an area where a Ferrari goes for $500,000 is logically going to be irritated if somebody tries to sell a Ferrari for $5 million since that is a price jump beyond what the local market normally asks.

That's a bad interpretation. They aren't selling $500k cars for $5M. That Bakemonogatari set has a number of type of extras that I haven't seen in a US release for years. They're selling a $500K car for $500K. Additionally, Funi is starting to put out LE releases that still don't have as many bonus items and cost around the same price.

You say that Ani charges way more for a similar product others charge way less for. I don't have intimate knowledge of every anime release ever, but what are ones where you're getting stuff like character commentaries for all the episodes? If you find it, tell me where you get it for only $15 that makes your $5M vs $500K babbling hold up.

Quote:
However, anime titles are not "cars" that are available from a number of different "dealers". I can't turn my nose up at AoA's Bakemonogatari release and buy Funi's cheaper Bakemonogatari release, instead.


This part of your argument actually shows how much Aniplex is like Ferrari. Only Ferrari makes the Ferrari. You can't turn your nose up at the what the Ferrari company sells them for and then go buy a Honda Ferrari or Toyota Ferrari or Nissan Ferrari for less.
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PurpleWarrior13



Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 2024
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm Reply with quote
While it's fine that Aniplex releases ultra-expensive sets for the deep hardcore fans of their shows, I really wish they would also release "normal" editions too for those of us who are only casual collectors. No I'm not "entitled" to that stuff, and yes I'm aware they can do whatever the heck they want, but that still doesn't mean their prices are not annoying as hell, and until they do something about this, I will remain feeling quite bitter about them...

Also, streaming isn't the answer to everything. I live in a rural area, and my internet connection isn't strong enough to do much of it. We briefly had Netflix (which does have quite a bit of anime), but we dropped it in part because we couldn't watch anything without it stopping to buffer every minute or so. I can watch most YouTube videos, but I have to let them buffer all the way first.

Once again, I'm aware that no one is entitled to anything, but that doesn't mean I can't be annoyed. Clearly many people are as well...


Last edited by PurpleWarrior13 on Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DmonHiro





PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:12 pm Reply with quote
So basically, people are mad are AoA because they can't afford their releases, but AoA's system is working great for them. Sorry, but the Ferrari analogy does work. The cost of production of a Ferrari is not that mush higher then a "regular" car, maybe 3-4 times as much tops.
But Ferrari only targets people with very deep pockets, people that they know can pay a lot of money. The system works for them, and owning a Ferrari shows that you have a shit ton of money, and are in a higher working class then others. The exact same thing happens with the AoA releases.

PS: You know why they are so expensive? Because they are very close to the Japanese BD release, and Japan doesn't want their otaku to import the cheap American version. It's either AoA prices, or you wait 2-3 years for a cheap American release, of lower quality, of course.

So yeah... bottom line: sour grapes.
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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
Posts: 5407
Location: Iscandar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:17 pm Reply with quote
SouthPacific wrote:
While I do not doubt Viz Media, I am concerned about the picture quality that FUNimation may bring.

If they're going to charge 90-150$ for a title, they have to amp up the video quality to match AoA/NISA. They can't for a second believe that it's going to work with washed-out colors & crappy masters, no one is going to support that type of release. And if worse comes to worst and this happens to be the case it's very likely that FUNimation will simply keep doing their regular releases instead of branching out.


I believe yesterday you also mentioned your worries about Funimation's video quality. I have not heard about video quality issues with Funimation releases before. Sentai is the company that have messed up video quality in the recent past.

Also, if Funimation messed the video quality in their premium release of Psycho-Pass, I doubt that many fans would be bothered by it. Funimation is probably going to make more LE editions as long as fans buy them, which I am sure they will.
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nechronius



Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 275
Location: So Cal, USA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:25 pm Reply with quote
One box to rule them all... Doesn't really exist, unfortunately. Too many technical challenges and changing standards.

My solution has been to use a modest laptop with the CCCP codec pack installed. It will play anything short of a Blu-Ray. Using Media Player Classic on the laptop piped to my TV allows me a level of control over my local network media watching experience that no standalone box allows. Skip to a specific time? 10bit mkv? Switch audio/subtitle tracks? Anything I want is instantaneous and works effectively 100%. The penalty is having to deal with a wireless mouse and a few extra clicks and occasionally with my keyboard. I get SPEED and essentially 100% functionality and lose a bit of 1 button simplicity and I'm perfectly ok with it.

For Blu-Rays I just use a standalone Sony Blu-Ray player. Resorting to Blu-Rays annoys me due to how long the damn player can take to load certain media. I can stream Netflix from it too if I wanted to. Crunchyroll goes on my laptop.


Honestly I'm seldom in front of the big TV long enough to really use that setup anyway, but it's nice knowing that it's there to use.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:26 pm Reply with quote
PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
I really wish they would also release "normal" editions too for those of us who are only casual collectors.


They did this for PMMM, releasing three versions in all, though the two "normal" versions were still a bit more expensive than most comparative releases from other companies. But it does show that AoA tried to cater to a wider audience.

PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
Once again, I'm aware that no one is entitled to anything, but that doesn't mean I can't be annoyed.


I commend you on your rationality. Thank you.

DmonHiro wrote:
The system works for them, and owning a Ferrari shows that you have a shit ton of money, and are in a higher working class then others. The exact same thing happens with the AoA releases.


Exactly. Aniplex releases are status symbols, something to proudly display on your shelves and boast about. It's the collector's mentality at work.

DmonHiro wrote:
PS: You know why they are so expensive? Because they are very close to the Japanese BD release, and Japan doesn't want their otaku to import the cheap American version. It's either AoA prices, or you wait 2-3 years for a cheap American release, of lower quality, of course.


Ah yes, this is the real heart of the matter.

There are three things consumers look for; fast release speed, high quality (lots of extras and nice packaging), and low price. A prospective buyer can have at most two of these but not all three.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:38 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
So basically, people are mad are AoA because they can't afford their releases, but AoA's system is working great for them. Sorry, but the Ferrari analogy does work.


No, it doesn't. An analogy only works if it is apt. If it is not apt, it has no validity. See, here's the mistake you Ferrari analogists continue to make:

You assume that a person who balks at AoA's prices is analogous to a person who can only afford a Honda and bitches that a Ferrari is out of his/her price range and shouldn't be.

That is false. Someone who is willing to buy anime and who balks at AoA's prices is like a person who can afford a Ferrari, has purchased Ferraris in the past, is willing to buy Ferraris in the future, but thinks paying 3x the going rate for a Ferrari is a little nuts.

So no, a person who thinks paying 3x the going rate for a Ferrari is not expressing sour grapes, he or she is expressing a very understandable point of view.

Wanting a Ferrari, but can't afford one = sour grapes.

Wanting a Ferrari, being willing to pay the market rate for a Ferrari, but balking at paying 3x the market rate for one is not sour grapes.

It's all incredibly simple.
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