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Mister Ryan Andrews



Joined: 28 Jan 2014
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:26 am Reply with quote
Banken wrote:
Chihayafuru is a critical success, at least among international fandom, so that example doesn't count. I'm not talking about purely commercial success, but rather whether the non-Japanese fandom and critics consider the shows to be good.


You later go on to cite anecdotal evidence as being useless so this would be useless as well. Saying "some people in the west like it" isn't proof when every show has fans to some degree.. You throw Conan under a bus later on yet despite it's heavily dedicated fanbase in America but Chihayafuru gets a pass? I don't think so.

Quote:
Sports anime are always almost always only interesting either to people who do the sport (Overdrive and Yowamushi Pedal would be boring as crap if I wasn't a cyclist) or to fangirls (Prince of Tennis was interesting for the first 15 episodes or so before it went all DBZ on us). You know what is more interesting? Real sports.


So sports anime is only interesting to people who find sports anime interesting? Rolling Eyes Okay then. Also whether YOU like Prince of Tennis or not is irrelevant. Clearly it's popularity speaks for itself.

Quote:
Detective Conan is arguably a good kid's show, but..


Stop shifting the goalpost. This isn't about if you like Conan/PoT/whatever or not or find them good. Bottom line is Conan one of the biggest franchises in Japan and the mentality of 'truly good shows are also popular in America' is bollocks.

Quote:
CCS was arguably a commercial success


In what way would you consider Cardcaptors a success?

Quote:
To comment about sports (and games) anime, most if not all of the titles being mentioned are the most prolific, best-of-the-genre tiles.

For every Slam Dunk there's a dozen more sports manga in circulation at the same time. Most of them don't even get anime adaptations.

Also, anecdotal evidence ("I hate sports but love sports anime!") does not really change the fact that the majority of the audience isn't interested. Be honest, you both dislike the sport yet like the anime for the same reason... you're a nerd (no offense intended).

If you asked 100 people to watch a sports anime alone, and then play that sport with their friends for 24 minutes, I'd say a majority would say they had more fun playing the sport.

But of course, once in a while you'll get a series like Slam Dunk which, rather than relying on interest on the sport or fangirl appeal, actually makes the sport seem more interesting


You don't get to write off something for being 'anecdotal evidence' and then use anecdotal evidence of your own to prove your point Rolling Eyes The majority of the audience isn't going to care about anime to begin with. Chances are you ask 100 people to watch an anime to begin with and they'll just say 'I don't watch cartoons, get out of my face nerd'. And even if you look among anime fans, the majority of them aren't going to care about something that doesn't air on TV that fits the very narrow Naruto/Beyblade style of show.

And again, no one cares if you like Slam Dunk. This isn't about what YOU find interesting. Fact of the matter is: Inazuma Eleven, Kuroko no Basket, Free!, Slam Dunk, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Hajime no Ippo and plenty of others are some of the biggest properties out there for both men and women. If you wanna dismiss them for the sake of keeping up your 'sports/game anime don't matter' stance then by all means go ahead, but you could try to be at least a bit objective about it when you're clearly acting out of self service when you drop little commentary like your remarks on Prince of Tennis and Slam Dunk.

enurtsol wrote:
Now for the remainder of that production cost pie that the Japanese sponsors account for, now that's where the Blu-ray sales will depend


CN's wallet might be accounted for, but if the Japanese side isn't then it's not really worth it for them. Unless CN is willing to give them some of their dosh as compensation.

Thing is though we're just pointing at exceptions to the rule. Big O is pretty much the only of its kind, plus it happened over 10 years ago back when anime was at its peak here. CN hasn't done something like that since. Space Dandy is only getting this simulcast treatment now due to the 'from the creator of Cowboy Bebop' tagline they can slap onto it. If they couldn't cash in on the Bebop audience they wouldn't have bothered. I woulda said because of Watanabe's name but given Kids on the Slope goes ignored by Adult Swim I imagine it's more Bebop than Watanabe, since KOTS couldn't be marketed towards the Bebop crowd.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 428

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:55 am Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:
DmonHiro wrote:
kakoishii wrote:
Could it be because rather than making a small collection of shows that were anywhere from 2, 4 or more cours they now mainly make a smattering of 1 cour shows and thus have more room to release more shows?

No, it's because in Japan, it's really hard to cancel something. Thus, if you're contracted to do a 52 episode anime, and it baombs in ratings and pre-orders, you can't really stop. It's much safer to just make a 13 episode show. If it works out, you do another season. If it doesn't, you just stop.

that wasn't really the question I was asking. I was making the point that they're probably more shows made now rather than then because more of the shows made now are only 1 cour and thus there's more space to fit in more anime in a year vs. then when those spots were taken up by one show that was multiple cours.


Anime shows have always been easily cancelled in Japan. Once upon a time, before the era of anime infomercials, the tv stations paid for anime. And if anime didn't bring in the necessary audience it was zapped. Thrown out without any compliments. That was Gundam's fate as well as a lot of other historical famous anime. And the reason film versions were made was in most cases to give closure to animes that were taken off the air because of too small an audience.
That changed when anime companies started paying broadcasters to get anime on tv. Now the relationship was inverted. Tv stations didn't really care wether anime did well or not since they were getting paid the same. And the anime companies used and continue to use anime to promote merchandise (where the real Yens are made). So quality is not as paramount as it once was. Hence today you make a lot of shows (1 cours, 2 cours, even 50 episodes shows) and it's very rare to take them off the air. The money is made in figs, magazines, cd dramas, pillows you name it and for a sub sub sub niche in blu-ray/dvds.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 5661
Location: Arcana City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:05 pm Reply with quote
TarksTarkas wrote:
There also are a lot of people that just can't handle watching a show, while also having to read sub-titles. They just can't do it.

If you are not going to be able to enjoy something, why should you be forced to buy it.
Yet many of these people seem to have no problem enjoying subtitled versions via fansubs/streams, which is how they're able to make statements like "I loved this show, but no dub, no buy." It's only when a show gets announced for a sub-only release that the story, artwork, animation, music, Japanese voice acting, etc. suddenly have no value. Though at least the issue isn't as bad as it was in 2008, since there are a lot more legitimate streams now.

Banken wrote:
No, it isn't. It's mathematically impossible for seven billion people, on average, to have worse taste than 120 million people. By definition, if more people consider something to be of high quality, it is considered to be of higher quality.

I think it's also fair to say Europeans have better taste than Americans, if only because there's twice as many of them.
So why doesn't this mathematically overwhelming amount of superior taste translate to overwhelming buying power (even if you discount the 3.5 billion people whose collective wealth is equal to the Oxfam 85's) that influences the Japanese industry to make more anime that caters to their superior non-Japanese tastes? Could it be because, as has been asserted in other threads, "normals" and fans of "mature"/serious/deep/edgy/whatever anime don't buy what they like, whereas fans of the much-reviled moe/harem/fanservice/lolicon/"pandering" otaku anime do support what they like?
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1644
Location: Virginia, United States

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:12 pm Reply with quote
Mikeski wrote:
TarsTarkas wrote:
If you are not going to be able to enjoy something, why should you be forced to buy it.

Neither Robert nor Shawne has appeared on my doorstep, DVDs in hand, to force me to buy them...

You already know that wasn’t what was implied.
Mikeski wrote:
TarsTarkas wrote:
If someone says, no dub, no sale; there is nothing wrong with that at all.

So if I am vegetarian, or lactose-intolerant, or whatever, I would be considered "an acceptable poster" for going to a foodie blog and dumping a "has meat, no sale"- or "has milk, no sale"-equivalent post in every thread about those things?

There are always trolls on both sides of things. But if you want no one complaining about the lack of dubs, then you should have a topic like this, the ‘We Love Subs Cheering Section’. Then you might have a point.
As to your other points, it really doesn’t matter if anything is accomplished. A lot of time comments are made to show, that not everyone is in agreement. That it is not a fait accompli.
Zalis116 wrote:

Could it be because, as has been asserted in other threads, "normals" and fans of "mature"/serious/deep/edgy/whatever anime don't buy what they like, whereas fans of the much-reviled moe/harem/fanservice/lolicon/"pandering" otaku anime do support what they like?

Agree with you here, it’s all about the money.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 10866

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:37 am Reply with quote
Mister Ryan Andrews wrote:

enurtsol wrote:
Now for the remainder of that production cost pie that the Japanese sponsors account for, now that's where the Blu-ray sales will depend

CN's wallet might be accounted for, but if the Japanese side isn't then it's not really worth it for them. Unless CN is willing to give them some of their dosh as compensation.


Yes, though due to CN's contribution, the Japanese side didn't have to put up as much money, so at least they have that going for them.


Mister Ryan Andrews wrote:

Thing is though we're just pointing at exceptions to the rule. Big O is pretty much the only of its kind, plus it happened over 10 years ago back when anime was at its peak here. CN hasn't done something like that since.


Well, CN also co-funded GitS:SAC (2005), IGPX (2006), the English rewrite of Shin-chan (2009), so yeah once in a while before the economy went to the tank, till now.


Mister Ryan Andrews wrote:

Space Dandy is only getting this simulcast treatment now due to the 'from the creator of Cowboy Bebop' tagline they can slap onto it. If they couldn't cash in on the Bebop audience they wouldn't have bothered. I woulda said because of Watanabe's name but given Kids on the Slope goes ignored by Adult Swim I imagine it's more Bebop than Watanabe, since KOTS couldn't be marketed towards the Bebop crowd.


I think Kids on the Slope just didn't have enough action for the Toonami crowd.
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Mikeski



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 482
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:40 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
TarsTarkas wrote:
If someone says, no dub, no sale; there is nothing wrong with that at all.

So if I am vegetarian, or lactose-intolerant, or whatever, I would be considered "an acceptable poster" for going to a foodie blog and dumping a "has meat, no sale"- or "has milk, no sale"-equivalent post in every thread about those things?

There are always trolls on both sides of things.

I agree with your assessment that "nodubnosale" folks are trolls.

But if there's "nothing wrong with" what they're doing, then they can't be trolls. So which is it? Trolling is against forum rules here (and almost everywhere), and it's still horrible behavior even in unmoderated forums.
TarsTarkas wrote:
But if you want no one complaining about the lack of dubs, then you should have a topic like this, the ‘We Love Subs Cheering Section’. Then you might have a point.

Again, you've stated it exactly backwards.

If there's a thread about Anime X, it should be used to talk about Anime X. If the "nodubnosale" trolls want to talk, they can go to the special "no dub no sale" topic set aside for them. Confinement is for the lawbreakers, not the law-abiding.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3199
Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:10 am Reply with quote
Mikeski wrote:
But if there's "nothing wrong with" what they're doing, then they can't be trolls. So which is it? Trolling is against forum rules here (and almost everywhere), and it's still horrible behavior even in unmoderated forums.

And whether or not they are conciously aware that they are trolling, its clearly soap-boxing when it is located in a discussion of some specific release that happens to be sub-only ... and soap-boxing also has a rule against it.
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Alexander55



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 103
Location: Ontario, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:28 pm Reply with quote
The Japanese should mostly focus on their domestic market and let the Western Anime distributors/publishers handle the rest. People who like it will come for. Anime and manga shouldn't have to be Americanized to appeal to a global audience. It would lose its appeal and the world is already over-saturated with Hollywood blockbusters and entertainment from corporate America as it is.

If Toonami anime fans want hardcore sci-fi, suspenful action experience with an ideal mature dialogue/plot with adult characters, they should start crowdfunding their own projects through Kickstarter/Indiegogo and make it happen. If you want the next Cowboy Behop or Ghost in the Shell, go for it. You could either produce it here, or outsource the labor to the Koreans or Chinese, who will handle the rest. Just be prepared to raise a lot of money for it, because producing a 13-episode anime series could probably cost $1,000,000 dollars or probably more. Who knows.
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Lavnovice9



Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:43 pm Reply with quote
^
This!

I like anime because of the way it is now. If they started tailoring it like American cartoons to cash in on the Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network audience I would hate it and it'd lose everything unique about it. Japan has a strong enough market it doesn't need to do that. Homogenization is why western animation always gets lumped together but anime remains seperate. There's no longer much difference between most European and American cartoons these days outside the very rare experimental movie out of Europe. but as far as TV stuff goes it's pretty samey

Crowdfunding is iffy to me though. Paying for something you don't even know you'll like seems like a bad business model. Once they got your money they can release a pile of dog droppings in the form of a show and there's nothing you can do about it. And at that point unless its an anime studio asking for money then its not really anime anymore so they might just want to go watch serious adult scifi action western cartoons at that point
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Polycell
Thread KillerThread Killer


Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 3424

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:00 am Reply with quote
Lavnovice9 wrote:
Crowdfunding is iffy to me though. Paying for something you don't even know you'll like seems like a bad business model. Once they got your money they can release a pile of dog droppings in the form of a show and there's nothing you can do about it.
Back a ways, it was fairly normal for writers and such to support their creative endeavors with money from "subscribers". Granted, an animated venture is far more expensive, but the point remains the underlying idea's been made to work before.
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Adamanto



Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Parse Error wrote:
Touma wrote:
Was that intended as an insult to people who prefer dubs?

And if so, why put them down? I understand why taking a "no dub, no buy" stance is counterproductive, and it certainly is not my own position as I much prefer subtitles anyway. However, it only makes sense for someone with a limited budget to reserve it for things they can readily enjoy. Is that camp widely despised because they're so vocal or something?


"I want to enjoy this product BUT only if you put local voices on it/color it/cut it to widescreen/make it HD, because fudge how the product actually IS, change it to cater to my specific demands" is a really really shitty and elitist attitude, especially when coupled with complaints about a licensee not spending tens out thousands catering to them and changing the product to the way they want it to be before they'll consider it.

That's why.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:05 pm Reply with quote
At least a dub is only an alternate audio track, cutting a 4:3 show to widescreen ruins it for everyone.
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Adamanto



Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:31 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
At least a dub is only an alternate audio track, cutting a 4:3 show to widescreen ruins it for everyone.


That's correct, and when a black and white movie is colored, it's usually released in a 2-disc set that includes the original version as well. I was talking more about the general attitude of the more vocal part of these people than about whether their demands were directly ruining the experience for others.

(though you have to admit, if North America had less people who didn't go "I might want to watch this foreign film, BUT ONLY if you spend a ton of money hiring people to speak English over it, because I'm not watching unless I hear English", you would get more anime licensed)
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Why not have a compromise? Find Japanese creators who want to have those types of stories animated, but can't because their domestic market doesn't find it marketable. Make it however they like, Toonami or whatever edits but you get the uncensored stuff on Blu-ray. You still have that "authentic" experience and gives the anime revenue.


Do like the idea of dubbing Drama CDs. Cost might have to do with it not happening as much. Would have thought some bigger properties would made it easier like Final Fantasy X's, but didn't realize overall it wasn't a thing any more in the US.
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 929
Location: in a van! down by the river!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:15 pm Reply with quote
I'm sorry but since when did "no dub, no buy" become trolling?! It's simply a statement of preference that it no way hurts subs. Everything would be sub only, if us dub lovers stopped buying anime. I'm sorry but some us not only like dubs, but some of us don't have any other option because reading subtitles is physically impossible!

Oh wait, I forgot. Nobody cares! Rolling Eyes
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