Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-09-29]
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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By "fans" I was thinking "people who go to anime conventions" but I'm willing to extend it to anyone who watches anime. But I'll also grant my own view on that is tremendously skewed. Of the four terms I noted: Ninja - is in common use, it is used for AMERICAN made movie titles, it has come into the common American lexicon NOT because it's an "American" word but because of consistent use that has taught the meaning. Kawaii - is coming on strong, not known in "business" circles, but known to a LARGE number of youth and marketed freely by various companies. Arigato(u) - "Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto"? and again, used often outside of anime. Not as "pop culture"ish as kawaii, but fairly understood. Ohayo Gozaimasu - ok, granted that one is less known and probably a stretch. But the point being, the ones that ARE well known are known because they were sprinkled into other popular shows/books/movies and eventually learned through comprehension. Heck, if I ask you what a "muggle" is, you could probably totally tell me. And before "Harry Potter", did that word even EXIST? IMO (and it's only my OPINION) if a story is going to be popular, it will be popular. And if you have words in there that are unknown at the time of writing, the people enjoying the story will LEARN those words. Granted, there is a difference between "names" and "incomprehensible gibberish", but if I name something "ziffram" and explain to you how my ziffram is the most powerful weapon of it's kind. And even though I can hold it in one hand it vastly outclasses the firepower of a .50 caliber rifle and can hit with a surprising degree of accuracy from 4000 yards away while still being concealable in a shoulder holster. MOST people will know what my "ziffram" is even WITHOUT the benefit of visuals (which an anime provides). I don't see why it needs to be "dumbed down" to "a GUN" because some small percentage can't figure that out on their own. Heck, how many "average" people knew what "alchemy" was before watching FMA? I ask this more as a rhetorical question rather than "I wanna see 'Bleach' done MY way". Heck, "Super Saiyan" and "Pokemon" are words that didn't stop those two shows from being two of the biggest success stories in anime. to the average 'mass market'. |
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kolibri
 Posts: 712 Location: Vancouver |
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Actually Ichogo calls him Uryuu in the manga - I never understood why it had been changed in the anime. Ichigo seems to be pretty familiar with everyone anyway and calls most people by their first names. You remember how devastated Byakuya was when Ichigo addressed him by his first name? I think Urahara is the only one he calls "-san". |
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silver_omicron
Posts: 132 |
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Yeah, well, here's the issue: Honorifics in English usually go to a title and stop there. Don't try to translate what doesn't exist, unless it is absolutely neccessary, and you will find no one will notice and no one will care, 'cept for those who have yet to realize it cannot be done. I think about Kakashi in Naruto and it was written somewhere that in the Manga or Anime he refers to most people in the highest form of flattery (which I forget what it is in Japanese). Obviously, in English, the closest thing we would have would probably be "My Lord/Leige/Sire/etc." but that denotes a boss, king, or supreme/superior figure. So what do they do? I forget, but it doesn't look like it was brought over. Does it matter? No. I think if you asked any fan though, would Kakashi treat all people with respect you could easily say, yeah, he would. I can tell that by his tone and his knowledge and just his general demeanor. No, a single word can't be brought over, but it doesn't matter. His personality will speak louder then his words. Some words simply do not exist in other languages and we definately, definately need to learn to cope with that. It will never be perfect. It couldn't be. |
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Strephon
Posts: 177 |
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I still shake my head over the episode of Cowboy Bebop where "Spiegel-sama" was translated in the subs as "Sir Spiegel." The situation did call for some sort of honorific, but picking one that's not really appropriate and then using it wrong wasn't the way to go.
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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 ) What's with all the straw man arguments in this thread, anyway? That is those who are saying, "Because you're a dirty pirate and watched Bleach via fansubs, your opinions about the content, translation, and names are irrelevant."
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Haterater
 Posts: 1727 |
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I didn't add baka because I was quoting HeeroTX who didn't have the term in their post. Also, were these terms in the subtitles? If someone weren't paying attention to what the characaters were saying and only reading it, well I bet some will be going, "WTF?", if there there are no footnotes and the likes. Risk sales by alienating some of your audience, especially on a dub with some of those terms? |
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Seif
 Posts: 456 |
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The problem is that half those words aren't Japanese words, but proper names and story specific items.. In context people in the talk about 'Super Sayin' or 'Muggle' as the subject of the sentence. Just because the word is said often in a society's setting doesn't mean you'll necessarily learn what it means. I'm sure foriegners hear "the" and "is" all the time, but they don't necessarily know what they mean. Also that opinion that 'all anime fans know these words' is heavily skewed towards the sub community. A dub fan watching FMA would obviously learn what "alchemy" is, but you can't guarentee they'd somehow learn what "chibi" means. |
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EarthAngel Jenna
Posts: 2 |
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I just watched the English dub of Bleach episode one on youtube and personally was very accepting of the way they dubbed it. The lack of honorifics didn't perterb me at all, like someone else said somewhere, only in the subtitling does it bother me when they're missing. I didn't care for Rukia's voice at all, it's much too wooden. Ichigo's is tolerable, not quite as rough as Ichigo is, but it gets better toward the end of the episode. His family though, I thought they were all great, especially Karin. And the thugs at the beginning were pretty good too.
Kudos for keeping the original opening and ending themes as well! *cough* Naruto *cough* Anyway, that's my two-sense. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Last edited by Dargonxtc on Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EarthAngel Jenna
Posts: 2 |
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Sorry in advance for picking on you, but here's my rebuttle to your comment. Okay, I say it's rather narrow-minded to say that only the people who go to conventions are "fans". The second thing is, who doesn't know what alchemy is?! Some "average" people need to pick up a dictionary or at least GO TO SCHOOL OR READ A BOOK OR TALK TO THEIR PARENTS OR TEACHERS OR SOMETHING! Alchemy is a pretty historical thing. It makes me kinda sad to think that the "average" person doesn't have any inkling as to what alchemy is. Most Americans know what a ninja is (also from history, funny how that happens) and have known it for a long time, that surely wasn't learned through anime, you are quite right. One point for you ^^ However, I rue the day that "kawaii" is known throughout all of American culture. I hear enough of that in Japanese! So yeah, a lot of older people and 80's music fans may know that "Domo Arigato" means "thank you very much" but when was the last time you heard that song on a radio station targeted to young people? Some people that I know don't know the song, which means that they won't know what that means from the song. They also may not know that it's Japanese if they aren't familiar with the language. A lot of Americans can't tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese, for instance. Would they assume it was in Japanese, then? A more important question is, would they care? You're right again, "Ohaiyo" is a stretch. I hadn't a clue what it meant before I started watching fansub anime, and I had been an anime fan long before that (just ask my mom about all the silly anime doodles I gave her while we were watching Cartoon Network together  )
On to Harry Potter. Muggle could now be considered a common word, sure. But not common between two old grandmothers discussing the people passing by, say. The only reason that muggle is a common word is because Harry Potter is so big, you're right. But if you asked an older person who isn't a Harry Potter fan (not to say there aren't a lot of older HP fans - Go Them!) whether they had heard the word muggle and what it meant, they probably would say yes to the former but "?" to the latter. Muggle wasn't just absorbed into the English language. For one, it was explained outright even to Harry which means we also knew exactly what it meant, but for two, there aren't wizards or witches so we wouldn't call some random person walking down the street a muggle to set them apart from another type of person. I'm not sure where I was going with this but I think the point was in there somewhere. Your ziffram sounds like a pretty sweet weapon. I'm sure some military will be phoning you soon! Okay one last thing before I close the rant session: I was under the impression the Pokemon was short for "pocket monsters", am I wrong? I'm asking in earnest because that's just what I heard. But if that's the case, Pokemon is really an English word in the first place! Fun. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Not at all, I appreciate the challenge. 
I never said ONLY the people who attend anime conventions are fans, I said that's what I meant by the designation. I say this because I can speak from experience of what I have observed. If I instead widen the net to "anyone who has watched anime" it becomes harder to draw solid information. My actual opinion is that there are people who attend cons who are fans and people who don't who are fans, and I think both would have the info I put forth, but the line is harder to draw. OTOH, NOT all people who "watch" anime are fans (IMO). I watch lots of shows that I wouldn't consider myself a "fan" of, I just get bored or have nothing better to do.
Unfortunately, the average person doesn't know who the vice president of the US is EITHER. But I agree with your point, people SHOULD read more books, and that was MY point. People will learn these words FROM the context. If they don't, then the WRITER has failed. re: "Arigato" and "muggles" You are missing my point. Of COURSE people who don't read this material don't know the meaning, because they have no CONTEXT. I'm not saying any random word should become part of the larger language. Heck, supercilious, locquacious and expeditious are all ENGLISH words, but how many American people know what they mean? I don't CARE if grandma knows what shinigami means, she doesn't NEED to, why? because she DOESN'T WATCH THE SHOW. Does grandma know who Ichigo is? No, then why should she care what he is?
Doesn't it though? And if you can sarcastically figure out what it is, it proves my point that gibberish words in context can still convey the meaning without finding some other "English near equivalent".
Pokemon is kinda short for Pocket Monsters and kind of a "proper name"/brand unto itself. Much like the "Famicom" was short for "family computer", Pokemon was a brand devised from smashing two words together. But the point is that if Pokemon hadn't been made (the game or the anime, take your pick) no one would know what you meant if you had a toy dragon and called it a "Pokemon". (since it could fit in your pocket and is a monster) But now if you say you have a "Pokemon" people WILL know what you mean. But I'll grant that it IS a proper name, so "muggles" is a better analogy. (and sorry about "baka", yes I forgot that one off top of my head) Again, I haven't watched Bleach (but read some of the manga) so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Rukia give Ichigo the full spiel on what a Shinigami is? Wouldn't that serve the same purpose for the viewer? Isn't that the REASON she does that? |
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kizoku
 Posts: 47 Location: Ypsilanti, MI |
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Good question. Suppose someone in Japan invents a new word and uses English roots for the "cool" factor. (I don't know if this is the case with pokemon or not). It then enters common usage in Japan and eventually finds it's way to the U.S. Is it English or Japanese? Sigh. I know this is probably too late for anyone to see it but hey, I think it's an interesting question. (Even if it's purely opinion.)
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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The terms weren't in the subtitles, and they didn't need to be, either--one can still learn them just by watching, reading, and paying a bit of attention. If you hear "kawaii" a few dozen times, and see cute/pretty/lovely/adorable/precious in the subtitles every time, the association will form. (Especially since kawaii is often a one-word sentence.)
 Or was that "two cents"?
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