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Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV).


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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:23 pm Reply with quote
True enough. I kinda spoiler tag on autopilot now.
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:34 pm Reply with quote
This just might be my latent OCD showing, but I go nuts when a precious limited resource such as command seals are wasted so easily.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:51 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I wonder if this version of F/SN is going to throttle back on Emiya's spoiler[obnoxious, "Oh Saber, I'm a puny human who can't protect you, but I'll interfere in your efforts to keep me alive and to win the Holy Grail War because I'm really just THAT intelligent" attitude that made him so annoying to watch] in the first F/SN anime.


Really had nothing to do with spoiler[what Shirou thought about his own skills]. Hope this one will get that point across better, because this is one of the complaints people have about that anime.
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Beized



Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 129
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:49 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I wonder if this version of F/SN is going to throttle back on Emiya's spoiler[obnoxious, "Oh Saber, I'm a puny human who can't protect you, but I'll interfere in your efforts to keep me alive and to win the Holy Grail War because I'm really just THAT intelligent" attitude that made him so annoying to watch] in the first F/SN anime.


I see this complaint a lot for the original F/SN anime, that people really don’t like Shirou because he acts like this. It always bothers me a bit when people complain about his characterization, not because I disagree with them, but because I think that it’s the point. You’re not supposed to like Shirou, you’re supposed to understand that what he’s doing is wrong.

This may seem like a bit of a tangent, but it’s important for the point I’m trying to make. King Arthur is a very flawed figure. The largest of these flaws is that he wants to handle everything by swinging his sword. He has a hammer, and all his problems look like nails. He lacks restraint. The loss of his scabbard is a physical problem because it robs him of his immortality, but the loss itself represents (among many things) the power of the sword divorced from the wisdom of when to draw it. He dies because, even though he has defeated Mordred, he cannot bear to pull back without delivering a mortal wound, and receives one in kind as he does.

To bring this back around to F/SN, (and for the sake of caution I’ll just spoiler this whole next part so I can speak frankly about the original anime and F/Z)spoiler[ Saber is summoned from a very specific moment, somewhere after the battle of Camlann but before she returns Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake. So, what this means is that after she was fatally wounded in battle, she decided the best course of action would be to fight another battle, for the chance at a miracle to erase the past. At this point it’s fairly easy to see why Sabers story is what it is in the original anime. Almost by default, it must be a story that bridges gulf between the King Arthur who had to kill Mordred with his own to hands, and the one that would give up his sword. She needs to figure out that it’s time to stop fighting, to figuratively recover her scabbard. Rider from F/Z clearly understood this, and arguably Berserker as well from the one line he gets at the end of their fight. Shirou, on the other hand wants her to stop fighting, but he doesn’t understand why she should. Because, if he understood that, then he would understand that he’s doing the same thing Saber did, and that it will kill him too if he doesn’t learn pull back. And he doesn’t want to understand that, even if it’s staring right at him. Saber is trapped by the ideal of a King who rules for others at the expense of herself, and Shirou is trapped by the ideal of a hero who saves others at the expense of himself.

The irony in Shirou’s character is that he literally embodies the scabbard of Excalibur, but he doesn’t understand at all what it means, which is why we get to watch him impotently flail around for half the show, trying to get Saber to give up on the grail, and failing at every turn. Nothing he actively tries works. The thing that finally changes her mind is when he’s forced to be a little introspective and explain to Kotomine why, even if he obtained the grail, he wouldn’t use it to erase the fire ten years ago.

Ultimately, the problem with Shirou’s character is one of scope. In the same time that Saber’s entire character arc is resolved, we’re introduced to Shirou and shown enough to understand that something is terribly wrong with how he’s living his life. And then, Shirou stands tall, unwavering and rewarded in his ignorance, the end. Except, it’s not really the end, it’s just the first act.]


I would say it’s worth trying this experiment. While you’re watching the new series, and specifically for Shirou’s character, try to think of this not as a remake, but as a continuation. It’s an interesting lens to view the show through, and it may just give you a new perspective on it.
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:47 am Reply with quote
^^ Beized, great summary about Saber and Shirou.

It has been a long time since I have watched the original but even so it seems to me this retelling is making the characters much easier to understand. I recall thinking something was really wrong with Rin where she didn't take advantage of Shirou's ignorance right away and just win against him. Now it makes more sense.

BTW, Lancer has a lot of nerve calling Saber a coward for using an invisible blade, just after he skewered spoiler[Shirou] not only with an invisible blade but also while he himself was invisible.
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:02 am Reply with quote
Beized, I think the problem that people have with Shirou isn't the idea you describe, which I agree is interesting, but that the way it's presented is not in terms of self-sacrifice to be a hero of justice, but in terms of "girls shouldn't fight, and boys should protect girls." So much of the F/SN story is driven, and in my opinion sidetracked, by the need to make it about Shirou's relationships with the ladies, right down to the decision to make Saber a girl. UBW is my favorite arc because, for once, that isn't the story's focus, which therefore doesn't detract from the thematic focus.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:07 am Reply with quote
@ Beized - yes, thank you for taking the time to provide that context. However, it doesn't retroactively change my opinion that watching Shirou's character was irritating.

I have a writer friend who is a master of creating asshole characters. You literally want to reach through the pages of the script and grab the character by the neck so that you can punch him in the face. He wrote a script that I could not finish reading simply because I hated how the main character behaved so much. Now, Shirou doesn't even come close to inspiring that level of hatred in me, but it's the same principle.

Even if you completely understand why a character is behaving the way he/she does, it doesn't make watching him/her any more pleasant.

Based on the last eppie of this show, I am reasonably confident Shirou's deal is going to be handled in a way not as calculated to make people like myself tear my hair out (and apparently I wasn't alone).

eta:

Yttrbio wrote:
Beized, I think the problem that people have with Shirou isn't the idea you describe, which I agree is interesting, but that the way it's presented is not in terms of self-sacrifice to be a hero of justice, but in terms of "girls shouldn't fight, and boys should protect girls."


Omg, this so very, very much.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:24 am Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
Beized, I think the problem that people have with Shirou isn't the idea you describe, which I agree is interesting, but that the way it's presented is not in terms of self-sacrifice to be a hero of justice, but in terms of "girls shouldn't fight, and boys should protect girls."


What makes you think that's the way it is presented beyond that one scene where Shirou tells this and Rin explains immediately what he actually meant?
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:31 am Reply with quote
I don't know what scene you're talking about. It's been a very long time since I watched the show and read the VN. I'm can only tell you the general impression I got from the show, (probably somewhat intermingled with my experience with the VN) and it's clearly not just me who feels that way.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:58 am Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
I don't know what scene you're talking about. It's been a very long time since I watched the show and read the VN. I'm can only tell you the general impression I got from the show, (probably somewhat intermingled with my experience with the VN) and it's clearly not just me who feels that way.


It's from Episode 9. I'm referring to that scene, because that's the most obvious place where I can imagine people getting stuck on the idea that Shirou thinks the "girls shouldn't fight". Actually he flat out tells that when Saber confronts him about his stupidity.
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:07 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Actually he flat out tells that when Saber confronts him about his stupidity.

Didn't he have a go-around with Rin on the same topic at some point?
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jl07045



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:29 am Reply with quote
HaruhiToy wrote:
jl07045 wrote:
Actually he flat out tells that when Saber confronts him about his stupidity.

Didn't he have a go-around with Rin on the same topic at some point?


I don't think so.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:35 am Reply with quote
Yes, Shirou does say something along those lines. However...

spoiler[Shirou feels the way he does not just because Kiritsugu saved him in the fire, but because *only he* survived that fire. He thus feels that his life was gifted to him and isn't really his to live as he wants to live, because he is *obligated* to return that gift by his actions for the rest of his life. His philosophy, which he (sorta) got from Kiritsugu is just the way he rationalizes that to himself. But even Kiritsugu tried to dissuade him, and so has everyone else that cares about him (Tiger, Rin, Saber, etc.). But since he's convinced himself that this is the only way he can repay his perceived debt, they never succeed. This problem is developed throughout SN, but it is only really addressed and dealt with in UBW, which is the main plot thread of this route (along with Rin and Shirou's relationship).]

So, yes, we're not supposed to think that Shirou's philosophy is desirable. This path is *kind of* a deconstruction of it.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:44 am Reply with quote
It's been a while since I've seen F/SN as well, but in my memory, there seemed to be quite a bit of Shirou's irritating interference with Saber. Even if the topic wasn't specifically discussed by the characters themselves, I often got the feeling that Shirou's attitude was predicated on him spoiler[being a male and Saber being a female and despite their titanic difference in power and ability, she shouldn't be fighting. It would be hard to imagine him having the same attitude if his Servant had been male.]
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:03 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I often got the feeling that Shirou's attitude was predicated on him spoiler[being a male and Saber being a female and despite their titanic difference in power and ability, she shouldn't be fighting. It would be hard to imagine him having the same attitude if his Servant had been male.]


At this point I often conflate things from the vn and the show, but as far as I can say that feeling could come from the fact thatspoiler[ Shirou was in love with Saber so he was extra invested in what he thought was good for her, not just a wish to fight his own fights. I can't imagine that making him more likable, but growing out of this patronizing attitude and trusting saber was part of his character development.]
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