Forum - View topicAldnoah.Zero (TV) (both seasons).
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ChibiKangaroo
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We were talking about the impact on her character, not whether spoiler[she would actually be captured and tried for the crime. We know what she did, so we know that her character has been severely damaged from a moral standpoint. Maybe they will capture her and put her on trial or execute her. That's not the point of what we are talking about though. I was only mentioning what happens to murderers in the context of talking about what our (i.e. society's) impression of her character is. Society's impression of her character is that, as a murderer, she should be punished. If the show decides that she won't be punished, it will likely be an asspull, even if it's just that the writers decided that she managed to slip out before anyone noticed. The only reason for that would be if the writers decided to keep using her as one of the "good guys." But that will always be fake to us from here on out because, again, WE know what she did.] That is what I mean by the impact on her character. |
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Key
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 Posts: 18182 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Absolutely inaccurate statement. spoiler[Rayet has never given any indication that she cares whether or not she was liked. She was jealous of the princess because Asseylum seem to be coping just fine with a situation similar to hers - i.e. being bloodily betrayed by her own people - when she couldn't cope at all.] Now, that may not change whether or not you think that justifies the scene, but if we're going to criticize, at least criticize accurately. Think I'll be mostly staying out of the commentary on this episode, though I will be monitoring it. Last edited by Key on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChibiKangaroo
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To be fair, I do think you are overlooking the scene toward the beginning of the episode where spoiler[Rayet sees the princess interacting with Inaho and she clearly seems to have some jealousy over Inaho's attention toward the princess. That's why Inaho's sister started that whole dialogue with her about how maybe it's not too late, and she could still get him. One does have to wonder whether or not her violence toward the princess was a combination of rage about her father's death and hatred over how a "martian" like the princess has the attention (and even affection?) of a potential love interest.] I generally agree that spoiler[her actions there in the shower were not clearly tied to any one thing, other than her overwhelming resentment of everything the princess stands for.] |
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Galap
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spoiler[Rayet seemed to be all of the below:
Redirecting pent up rage. Jealous that the princess was coping better than her in a similar situation. Angry at the Vers establishment for killing her family Angry at Asseylum due to the mere fact that she's martian.] Of course, all of that's completely bogus and makes no sense at all, but in any incident like this, the motive is always stupid. @ChibiKangaroo: I've seen from previous discussions with you (the most prominent one being in my head being in the Birdy Decode thread about the character Nataru) that you tend to take issue when characters don't get condemned along the lines our society wants when they perform immoral actions. I'm not sure why you think that this is such a problem. Different people and characters may not condemn an individual in the same way or to the same extent for actions that you or our society would. Can't justice often be misserved, or on the positive end there be some kind of absolution? spoiler[What's wrong with their view of Rayet not changing until they find out about what happened? Sure, WE know what she did, and they don't, but I guess you just have to accept that incongruity.] I think a lot of issues like this come from a difference in expectations about the kind of story being told, or the fundamental interpretation of such. As a general statement, I think that for the most part, stories can be classified into two major types (and to be clear, this classification is just a parameter, not a fundamental division). For lack of a better word, let me call them "top down" and "bottom up". "Top down" stories are made to allow the characters to get into certain situations, and for certain things to happen, and everything else goes into place to make things fit with that. "Bottom up" stories have a setting and cast of characters, and draw events from what the author consideres to be the logical progression and follow through of that situation. Essentially, in "top down" stories, things happen to the characters for thematic reasons, and an unjust character is 'punished' by the author for their deeds. In "bottom up" stories, whatever happened to that person happened, and there's no thematic or authorial 'reason' for it other than that it seemed like a reasonable and logical way for events to progress, and maybe because it creates an interesting situation in the world. Many stories work better if you don't focus on thinking of them as a construction of an author's intent, but rather as a series of events that take place in a world. I personally tend to prefer stories crafted with the latter in mind. |
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meiam
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That's actually a really interesting point, and a really good way to explain it. I suppose that's something left to personal taste. Personally I wouldn't make a distinction, I'd just say that there are good story and bad one, where top down almost certainly guarantee you'll make a bad one. And then there's really good one, a bottom up where the author craft the event and character in such a way that there action will make sense and be properly foreshadowed (but not overly so, such that you don't see everything coming from a mile) and at the same time form an interesting narrative. But I suppose some people simply do not care about proper logic in action. It seems to me that a top down story is far easier to make, they usually just take the usual event that happen in every story (hero dad get killed, he set off on adventure, find cute girl, discover his hidden power, get betrayed by friend only not really, corner bad guys, find out bad guys his dad, beat his dad, bang the girl, happy ending) as such they usually suffer in originality, along with having to watch the painful spectacle of the writer try to shape the setting and character in unnatural way. I suppose it depend on the kind of story, I don't care if a comedy has proper logic, but as soon as there's any event where I'm suppose to connect and empathize with the character, if there action are irrational I simply can't. Often it goes the other way where I'm suppose to be afraid that some character might die, but I only wish they did because they took some amazingly stupid action and really shouldn't get off scot free. It often feel so unfair, where the villain work really hard toward his plan and make no mistake but ultimately fail because God (the writer) is on the good guy side, who's often a huge loser who doesn't deserve to win. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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It depends. You have to think first about why I am watching a particular anime. There could be numerous reasons, but say for a moment that there are at least two possibilities: (1) I am watching an anime because I want to be intellectually stimulated at the same time as being entertained; and (2) I only want to be entertained, at the most primal level possible. I want to shut off my brain and watch things blow up, objects crash into other objects, and/or sexually exciting things happening. When it comes to anime that fall into category 2, I really don't care about whether the author tries to present me with characters with whom I can identify on a moral and intellectual level. I don't care if the author gives me lowlifes, fetishists, criminals and not-so-nice-people. I'm not looking to "learn" anything from them or take away some greater meaning as I would from something from category 1. When it comes to anime that fall into category 1, I fully expect to take away something long-term and be moved in some way (not necessarily emotionally moved, but perhaps intellectually moved so to speak). The more such a show can do to move me, the higher the rating will be, and of course the less such a show moves me, the lower the rating. Of course, there are all kinds of ways that one can be moved - like I said, maybe it is emotional or intellectual. I suppose it could also be through smart comedy/satire or social commentary, and it could be something that simply inspires me in some way. Something that is common to all of those shows that succeed in category 1 though is that the author tries to engage me and stimulate my mind or feelings, rather than manipulate me. There is a distinct difference between those two. Often times, something will cross from stimulation to manipulation when the author begins to force certain actions on a scene or a character that don't seem natural, in order to force a specific reaction from me which would not naturally flow in reality. So let's talk about Nataru from Birdy Decode for a moment, since you brought him up (and I assume you like his character a lot since you are using him as your avatar). For the majority of the second season,spoiler[ the author depicts Nataru as a person who was a "good person" but is gradually becoming more and more corrupt by his rage and desire for revenge. He becomes an utterly ruthless killer during that process, literally ripping people apart with his own hands in some instances. During that time, the author is stimulating my mind to think of him as the kind of "fallen angel" character, someone who has allowed himself to become a monster out of his own dark desires. I pity him, but I naturally feel disgust for the horrible crimes he commits. Naturally, my intellect is telling me that he is a serial murderer who needs to be punished. The long-term message I naturally would take away from such a show is that allowing yourself to go down a dark path leads to a corrupted soul, and a tragic waste of potential. (If you want examples where this narrative plays out in that exact manner, see Death Note and/or Ringing Bell, which Theron has conveniently just reviewed for us today. Those are both shows that I think are great tragedies, and perhaps even masterpieces in anime).] However, right at the end, spoiler[Birdy Decode flips that script. Nataru is not punished for his heinous crimes. Instead, the writer suddenly forces a notion of sympathy and redemption for Nataru right in the final episode. It is extremely jarring. It doesn't flow naturally. It is manipulative. I suddenly get the sense that for the entire season, I was watching Nataru engage in all of these grisly murders purely for their entertainment factor, and not because I was watching a character truly being corrupted. I was seeing people be slaughtered because gore is fun, not because there was any meaning to it.] Now you see, the show is slipping away from category 1 and squarely into category 2. When this slippage becomes evident at the very end, it is even more egregious to me. I get the sense that I've been massively conned. I'm trying not to go on forever here, but hopefully that helps you to understand why I was so disturbed by how Nataru's character was treated, as I was a huge Birdy fan up until that final episode. So the same dynamic applies in Aldnoah.zero or any other show. If the show is presenting itself as a category 1 show (which I think Aldnoah.zero clearly is), then I don't want to be manipulated/tricked. I will heavily criticize any character or story arc that engages in such manipulation. As for our dear friend Rayet, spoiler[that means that I am not necessarily opposed to her becoming a murderer. I just want that character arc to play out naturally. If there is some meaning that I can draw from her killing or attempting to kill the princess, then I'd like to have it. However, if we are shown a few episodes from now that her heinous act of choking the princess really had no meaning at all (either because the princess is just fine and forgives her, or because no one finds out and she just carries on as one of the "good guys,") then I will feel as if this action at the end of episode 9 was a huge con.] I was being manipulated by the writers into having a strong, disturbed reaction (possibly even an emotional reaction) but it was meaningless. It was just shock value. It was essentially the type of "porn" that I would see in a category 2 show. Perhaps that was somewhat informative. |
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Ohoni
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He's extremely paranoid about people who may have designs against the princess. To some degree of course that's justified, but he has missed out on opportunities to ally himself by being so hesitant to trust.
Yes, I don't think it's really "better" than the execution in SAO though, he just as access to proper military medicine that the SAO characters did not. On the other hand, he's had PTSD for fifteen years now without any previous treatment.  That bothered me but then I thought about it and they are meant to be contemporary to us, and we didn't start treating PTSD all that seriously until a decade or so ago, and that was largely due to an ongoing war that they did not have in their world.
We don't know how much of the details she knows, I'm willing to give her a pass for now. I doubt she assumes he shot her brother in cold blood, she probably blames him for not getting him out safely.
Well, I still think the Vers are a bit pantomime, but I did begin to sympathize with them a bit. It wasn't that they were expecting Mars to be a garden world, but apparently all they were being sent is bare minimum rations, and this was before rebelling. Every space program knows that long term missions rely on getting them the best food that is feasible, and Earth seems to have been capable of doing better than they did. And it's interesting that Sauzbaum is basically spoiler[running a double-headed war. He has no sympathy for Earth and wants to take it for Vers, but he also hates the royal family and apparently the nobility in general, and wants to crash them against the rocks of the war].
Like CPR. spoiler[ I believe the princess is currently dead, as in "no longer alive," but you can be dead for a few minutes without much permanent damage if you're revived. As to whether it's possible to choke someone to death in about twenty seconds, yes you can, if you cut off blood supply to the brain (rather than just air supply to the lungs) you can choke someone unconscious in seconds, and holding it longer can be fatal. I also do not believe she's dead because if so they would be completely stranded on the ice with no airship to continue on. It's too soon for them to lose the ship. And the princess too, of course. ] Anyways, I buy that scene. spoiler[It was clearly unplanned, she was in a bad place and snapped. The opportunity presented herself and she took it. Had there not been that opportunity she likely wouldn't have plotted out anything, it was a crime of passion, temporary insanity. The shower scene prior to that made it pretty clear where her headspace was at. Her family tried to kill the princess. The princess died. Her father was murdered. The princess came back. He didn't. Rayet is all tied up with angst and vengeance. the princess is not, she seems well adjusted and calm with her current status. How can the princess be alive and so happy-go-lucky about all of this when Rayet's father is dead and it's all her fault? (and yes, in a sense it was the princess's fault, since she made herself an available target to start the war and all that, misplaced blame, but reasonably misplaced) I'm not saying I agree with her choices or that they are morally justified, just that I can see the mental breadcrumbs that would lead her to snap in a narratively plausible way. Oh, and I believe her jealousy has NOTHING to do with Inhao. If she cares for him at all it's super-cassual, nowhere near the other two girls. She is not jealous of him and the Princess to the degree it would lead to murder, Inaho's sister was just projecting her own expectations on Rayet in the earlier scene. ]
To back up Danilo, temporary insanity and PTSD are two very different things, and it does not help to stigmatize PTSD sufferers by associating them.
It can, but at most they would be likely to relive battlefield scenarios, spoiler[and Rayet should have no flashback memories of garotting people.]
I just see this as a running gag, something the Captain uses to tease her friend, not something either takes seriously, and I don't think we're meant to find it funny either. It's similar to the banter between Mustang and his team in FMA.
Slaine can't spoiler[activate anything, he's a normal Terran. He can only operate stuff that's already powered. They still need to explain why the ship requires the princess to be active to remain powered, while the other Aldnoah tech can presumably function with the royal far away or dead.]
Well, spoiler[nobody saw her there before the murder, and we don't know the layout of the ship or how far away the other two were in that scene, it's possible she could leave that room and get away before Inaho and the servant get back, or to hide in a stall, wait till they're distracted by the body, and slip out. It's not like they will enter the room and immediately start to clear it for suspects, the still don't know a murder has taken place. There's all sorts of room for her to potentially get away scott free.] By the way, on the legal issue, spoiler["Not Guilty by reason of Temporary Insanity" is an actual affirmative defense, and if you get that, then you essentially walk free. It's hard to convince people of, but basically means that you're normally a rational, non-murdery person, but something unlikely just made you snap, and you killed someone, and you're sorry about that and won't do it again. Likely scenarios include things like not at all suspecting a cheating spouse but walking in on them, and then immediately killing them within seconds. It has to be very quick and spontaneous, evidence of premeditation can kill your chances on this sort of defense. This does seem like a case of temporary insanity, but she'd have a hard time proving it at trial, what with all the "kill as Martians" stuff in her past.] |
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ChibiKangaroo
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I'm sorry, spoiler[but this defense is almost never successful, and is generally abused by most people who try to assert it. It's essentially an attempt at jury nullification, so it would be especially unlikely to succeed in this scenario. The only times when it has any real chance is where the person who committed the murder was being abused or somehow victimized by the person they killed. It's not going to work when the person you killed was someone you clearly just hated. Also, because it is still an insanity defense, even if it worked you would still likely be hospitalized. But as I said, it simply wouldn't work here because everyone knows Rayet hated the princess - she admitted it on numerous occasions.] |
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Ohoni
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I noted as much, I'm just pointing out, it is a legally plausible defense.
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Ghost_Wheel
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@ChibiKangaroo
You make a lot of good points and you clearly have a well thought out philosophy about this kind of thing. My attitude about this kind of thing is that I make a conscious effort not to learn lessons anecdotally from characters. When a character performs an action, I don't immediately assume that what happened to them as a result was in any way generalizable with respect to the action, the correct thing to have happen to them at the time, or something that should or shouldn't have been done as punishment. With Nataru, you talk about how you felt betrayed, how you can't feel you can connect with his character progression anymore. But why? You have no reason to feel sympathy for him in the context of the show if you don't want to. spoiler[Nataru is far gone by the end of the show. His actions have isolated him from the earth world he's grown to love, his family and alien brethren outside of earth, and the woman he loves most. His only choice is to go back in time to a point he can't even control, and live out the 30 seconds of his painful, miserable life doing the one small thing he could to complete the circle. And this all happened as a DIRECT consequence of the immoral actions, constituting in my opinion a stronger tragedy than if something arbitrary happened to him. The author does not tell or force you to respect or like Nataru in the end. You can absolutely feel like he is a terrible and irredeemable person by the end and have it be internally consistent with everything. But the fact that you do feel a sense of sympathy and redemption in spite of your firm beliefs about this kind of thing is pretty interesting to me. Is it because you see the show through Birdy's eyes and feel the undeniable grief that she does over losing (in more ways than one) her closest friend? Birdy felt pretty sick when she realized she couldn't punish him either. Is it because you're used to the story progression as it happens in other shows and you're uncomfortable with a character that really does have a full measure of good and bad actions and potential in them at any given moment? Whatever it is, I don't think you can really say that it was all just for blood and gore and entertainment value. Like it or not, Nataru's character progression is in fact a character progression that was an attempt to be realistic, an attempt which I think succeeded very well.] Taking this back to Aldnoah.Zero, I feel like spoiler[Rayet's actions were well motivated within the context of the character. She was probably involved with the league of assassins that attempted to kill the princess the first time, and her involvement in this group probably goes back to a rather fundamental part of her persona that thinks that lasting peace with the Martians as Asseylum calmly (and probably to Rayet, naively) describes and demonstrates around the ship is impossible and only a trap that will set us up for greater tragedy. If you're worried about punishment, the ship is going down for god's sake. Immoral actions are immoral for a reason, and people don't need to be arrested or witchunted to face the consequences of living a life where you make poor decisions or don't respect your fellow man. Not only that, there's enough evidence in her running naked out of the room and probable reports of people around the ship saying someone was in the bathroom a long time that I bet she'll be found out anyway, if she doesn't end up confessing herself. But whether or not she gets punished its clear she understands the gravity of her situation, or that she will when the ship goes down. It's this understanding of the gravity of the situation, the impossible odds of the war in front of her, that had her make the rash decision she made in the first place. This is what real fear is like: The fear that you are the only one that knows how to have everyone walk away from the situation, that you are the only one with the correct level of mistrust that starts something like an assassination attempt in the first place. I for one am very curious to see how this plays out and I really hope that the show has the balls to really declare the princess dead after this.] |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Thanks. I think your position is as valid as mine is. I am probably a bit more strict in how I tend to see any show where I am not taking some lesson or long-term impact away from the show as a "Category 2" show, but a lot of people might have a different way of seeing those two categories, or might want to look at a larger number of categories. I don't think there are necessarily only 2, but am using those primarily for argument sake.
Yes, I think I am pretty much confirming that I did feel sympathy for him, but my main point is that that sympathy was forced/fake. It was the author manipulating my emotions, in some way yes because I am identifying with Birdy, spoiler[and the author shows her as feeling affection for him and failing to punish him. I am irked because the author's intention to elicit sympathy from me was effective, because I was manipulated. For me, my forced sympathy for Nataru at the end clashed unnaturally with the desire to see him punished severely for his multitude of grisly crimes.] To give you a RL example, it would be like if, after seeing the horrors of John Wayne Gacy's murder spree (during which he murdered and raped 33 teenaged boys and young men), someone were to somehow manipulate reality in such a way that he appeared to be a sympathetic and perhaps even heroic figure in the end, and a decision was made not to punish him that I had no choice but to accept. That's the kind of manipulation that I speak of.
I do agree that the show will be more dramatic spoiler[if she actually is dead.] As I've said elsewhere, I don't know if it will have a large impact on my rating at this point, because I do think the show has veered so far into a focus on just shocking us week after week with ever more jarring developments, that it's hard for me to see it as a potentially "great" show anymore. I will probably still be entertained, but it will be more of the "Category 2" type of entertainment. |
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Galap
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@Chibikangaroo:
I guess I understand what you're getting at about possibilities 1 and 2 (I myself don't really have much patience for 2), but IDK, I think that both Birdy and Aldnoah fit pretty strongly into bin 1. I think for me the key here is that I don't think you're really 'supposed' to feel anything specific about Nataru; you're 'supposed' to make up your own mind about it. What ultimately happened there, anyway? spoiler[His enemies are mostly dead, his father is dead, his relationship with Birdy may be irreparably damaged, and he probably has to be in hiding. It’s not punishment, but like Ghost_Wheel said, bad things are bad for a reason, and that’s the reason right there. His actions weren't so bad at first, but the longer it went to go the more messed up things got. At the end of the day though, he decided to call off his fight with Birdy, and Valic decided to disarm the atomic bomb. That day, that time, people ultimately made the decision to not have things go off the rails more than they already had. Like Ghost_Wheel said, I think that a lot of the sympathy comes from seeing things from Birdy's perspective. See, Birdy kind of understands him. She thinks his perspective is ridiculous, but she does understand it. For me it’s particularly effective because it portrays so well what it’s like to see someone close to you go off the rails. You see from an outside perspective why things are happening, but you can’t really do anything about it because you know that it’s near impossible to actually change people’s minds about things (which surprisingly actually happens here; Birdy and Irma essentially passively convince Valic to change his attitudes along with some negative reinforcement with Moss, and Tsutomu succeeds at convincing Nataru to change his attitudes (along with Birdy, in her conversations with Nataru from before). I actually consider this to be the glimmer that adds an uplifting end note to the story, which I consider to be one of the most magnificent tragedies ever.) Birdy is in the ultimate position to condemn or forgive him, due to her history with him as childhood friend, understanding of his situation as fellow Ixioran, and her social role as Federation investigator. It’s not like she hasn’t been down a similar path herself, either. She has felt a strong desire to kill, to destroy those responsible for harming her or those she cares about, and she’s followed through on it, on multiple occasions. She however has learned to live with this and apply this kind of thing in a constructive way. He's killing the fugitives because he thinks the government won't handle the situation right, that they won't get punishment for their actions, or even worse, that they will be allowed to continue them. He's not completely wrong either: the factions in the government that supported them still exist. He fights Birdy because he thinks (based on her choosing to oppose him) that she’s fallen to their level and is supporting the Federation’s corrupt state, fighting for those who oppress her. He sees that as the ultimate betrayal, that the one he loves essentially rejects him and his ideals, that she’s been corrupted by her environment and brainwashed by her upbringing. He actually didn’t really understand her until Tsutomu talked to him about what she was doing and why. The big irony here is that the vigilante is the one with the regressive ideology and the so called ‘champion of justice’ who works for a corrupt and largely ineffective state is the one with more progressive and constructive ideas. Personally I’m conflicted about Nataru in a similar way to Birdy and you, and I think that’s part of why I like the character and his situation so much. The show doesn’t necessarily end feeling ‘nice’, or neatly, but that’s the point: a realistic portrayal of these kind of events doesn’t leave the best taste.] As for Aldnoah, spoiler[I think this one is a lot more clear cut, and it seems to be portrayed as such. Rayet really messed things up. She destroyed humanity’s only advantage and any potential they had for reconciliation with the Martians (or at least some of them, like Slaine). What she did does feel like it makes complete sense for Rayet’s character, for the reasons I posted earlier. It also fits very well with the show’s themes and the way things have been going before, that stupidity, ignorance, and lack of information keep gumming up the works and keeping things from getting back on track. I also hope that the princess actually goes down here, because things will certainly be much more interesting if that’s the case.] |
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ChibiKangaroo
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That's not his decision to make. spoiler[He appoints himself as judge, jury, and executioner. He kills them in highly gruesome manners, like he is engaged in rage murders where he rips their bodies apart. He kills them even when they are begging for mercy, even where they are paying for their own crimes. There is little difference between what he does and the most evil characters who kill people because they take pleasure in it. Worse, he has no remorse for it. I cannot condone his actions as they were written, there's just no way that I can be in favor of that.] It was the most disturbing path to darkness that I have seen aside from maybe Light in Death Note. The big difference is that Light spoiler[doesn't get an easy "get out of jail free card" at the end. Near doesn't suddenly sympathize with him at the last second and set him free. He gets shot to death and bleeds out on a staircase, all alone, while Ryuk eagerly collects his soul. That's how it was supposed to end, and any kind of "Well, maybe we should all feel sorry for him at the end and set him free" ending would have been just as frustrating to me. Some people might be able to accept it for how it played out, but I just felt like I was being manipulated.] Right now, it's not clear if a similar thing will be attempted with Aldnoah.zero. If it is, I will be similarly irked. |
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DuskyPredator
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I think another thing to add to the idea that Rayet spoiler[feels isolated is the question to the sister if she could tell that she was lying]. The reason she asked was because she spoiler[wanted to know if someone else understood her. But she looked down when she realised the sister thought that she liked Inaho].
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FenixFiesta
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Just to toss this out (again), the only characters that Rayet seemed to have the most notable contact with were Asseyleum, her hand maid, and Inaho, two of them having a heritage that she has decided to have a prejudice against and the last being the equivalent personality of a brick wall.
Rayet has not tried to make any friends nor has she tried to vent her frustration out by chiding in with the people saying "we should take revenge on the Martians!" (little doubt because she has self guilt that she was part of the terrorist cell that started the war) And here is the thing, if Rayet is simply about "getting revenge" then learning about the names faces that got her father's group part of the operation should be her priority. spoiler[As others have pointed out, choking out Asseyleum is HELPING the very people she would draw her ire upon.] As a "matter of fact" Rayet is lonely, she lost everyone she knew and has not tried to rebuild her life on a social level (regardless if it is difficult when you are effectively a continuously moving refuge), and even if she is supposed to be a character that now exists solely for revenge she is going about it in a rather stupid manner even for a teenage character. spoiler[To say it again, even though it sounds morbid having the princess die off for real at this point would be the only way to salvage the "split decision" made by Rayet, it would mean that actions have consequences and "people die when they are killed" there shouldn't be "she was only mostly dead, but when I performed my dues ex medical technique the princess perked right back up!" in a series that I assume is trying to have even the slightest amount of gravity.] |
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