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Aldnoah.Zero (TV) (both seasons).


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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15433
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:09 am Reply with quote
You are making assumptions, and saying what you wanted to happen. Inaho made the decision to check if the mysterious pilot would react badly to the idea that the princess might have to be used in a way that might not appear to be in her best interest. Because letting someone on board who would react violently to an danger like that could be very bad.

What you only use as fire and don't consider other implications is that they left Slaine there, this can be really easy to explain. They had no time wait around on the field of battle that would most likely have the attention of bigger dangers. They had enough time to pick up the mecha, that is standard mecha built by the same people that made the ship, but not enough time to work out a way to figure a way to get an alien recovered from the ocean and recover the pilot.

It was well within reason that he could be a threat in a number of ways, including someone so hot headed unknowingly stalling them enough for the wrong people. That properly detaining him when they really did not know what he could do would take time that they needed.

We have said this many times, what you say made sense to the audience, but there is some reasoning that the decision made was reasonable to the character.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:25 am Reply with quote
Ohoni wrote:

No.

Rewatch the scene,


ROFL. I just now re-watched the scene, and realized something that no one has talked about before. You probably shouldn't have asked me to.

When Slaine fires on Inaho, Inaho fires back almost instantaneously. That was something I noticed when this was first brought up, so I had initially considered that the scene was written in such a manner that we were supposed to think they both fired at the same time.

However, whether Slaine fired first or not is not relevant now. What I realized after watching that scene again is that we never see exactly when Inaho aims his gun at Slaine. Since Inaho fires within a fraction of a second from Slaine firing, it is impossible that Inaho could have aimed his gun up after Slaine fired (and we don't see that happening. All we see is Inaho's gun firing instantly after Slaine's fired, without any movement whatsoever). That means that Inaho's gun was aimed at Slaine before Slaine fired.

Along that same line of thought, why didn't they ever show Inaho aiming his gun? They specifically showed Slaine aiming his gun, but not Inaho. Knowing what we know about Inaho (that he was suspicious of Slaine), it is likely that he already had his gun aimed at Slaine. This would explain why we never see him aiming his gun and why he was able to fire within a fraction of a second of Slaine firing. In fact, right after Slaine's guns aim at Inaho, we are shown an image of Inaho's kat not moving at all. You would have expected that scene to show Inaho aiming his gun, but he's totally still. I think this is a strong indication that Inaho's gun was already aimed at Slaine, which again, would make sense given Inaho's apparent suspicion of him.

This pretty much erases any argument people have been making about Slaine aiming his gun. It now seems likely that Inaho was the one aiming at Slaine first, and that combined with Inaho's indication that he was about to exploit the princess makes it pretty much assured that they would come to blows. Thanks for having me look again, this pretty much confirms that Inaho incited their fight Very Happy


Quote:
Inaho did not shift his weapon until Slaine had fired.


As I demonstrated above, this is not possible. It is now clear that Inaho already had his gun aimed at Slaine, and it is most likely he had his gun aimed at him before Slaine even took aim at Inaho. Your position is now shot to hell.

Quote:
Predicting specific actions over long timeframes is impossible, but predicting likely behavior patterns is not.


Ahhh yes, so if he can predict likely behavior patterns, then he should have been able to predict that spoiler[Rayet would try to strangle the princess to death!! Yessss. And he still allowed it to happen! Inaho is such a smart guy isn't he. He predicts that Rayet will try to kill the princess, but then lets it happen, because he "trusts" Rayet! Even though she tried to kill his most valuable asset.] Inaho, man of many contradictions.

And as far as your "thought exercise," how about we do another? If Slaine were captured after the battle, he would likely be in the brig or some interrogation room, so I don't think he would be involved with anything involving the princess or Inaho for a long time. Problem solved Smile See, you can solve a lot of problems when you think rationally!
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:57 pm Reply with quote
Quote:

However, whether Slaine fired first or not is not relevant now. What I realized after watching that scene again is that we never see exactly when Inaho aims his gun at Slaine. Since Inaho fires within a fraction of a second from Slaine firing, it is impossible that Inaho could have aimed his gun up after Slaine fired (and we don't see that happening. All we see is Inaho's gun firing instantly after Slaine's fired, without any movement whatsoever). That means that Inaho's gun was aimed at Slaine before Slaine fired.


It's possible, although the hand-fired rifle is quick to aim. Slaine deliberately shifted his cannons to target Inaho though, it's more likely that if Inaho did not have to retarget anything, it was just because the way he was positioned on the plane, aiming roughly in its direction was a natural angle. In any case, SLAINE SHOT FIRST.

Quote:
In fact, right after Slaine's guns aim at Inaho, we are shown an image of Inaho's kat not moving at all. You would have expected that scene to show Inaho aiming his gun, but he's totally still.


Yes, that scene was showing that while Slaine was making a provocative gesture, Inaho was not doing anything provocative, and then SLAINE SHOT FIRST.

Quote:
Thanks for having me look again, this pretty much confirms that Inaho incited their fight Very Happy


Man, I really hope for your sake that you never end up in a violent confrontation that ends up going to court, because you would be ####ed. "Well, he implied that my mother might be less than perfectly lovely, so of course I had to shoot at him."

Quote:

As I demonstrated above, this is not possible. It is now clear that Inaho already had his gun aimed at Slaine, and it is most likely he had his gun aimed at him before Slaine even took aim at Inaho. Your position is now shot to hell.


Not as shot to hell as Slaine was after SLAINE SHOT FIRST.

Quote:

Ahhh yes, so if he can predict likely behavior patterns, then he should have been able to predict that sspoiler[poiler[Rayet would try to strangle the princess to death!!]


How was that predictable? He had no idea, or reason to suspect that she was a Martian who had been part of a team attempting to kill her. She gave some indication that she wanted to defeat the Martians, as had numerous people on the ship, but she'd given no reason for anyone to reasonable suspect she might attempt cold blooded murder.

Quote:
Inaho, man of many contradictions.


Only if you aren't paying attention.

Quote:
And as far as your "thought exercise," how about we do another? If Slaine were captured after the battle, he would likely be in the brig or some interrogation room, so I don't think he would be involved with anything involving the princess or Inaho for a long time. Problem solved Smile See, you can solve a lot of problems when you think rationally!


If they tried to put him in the brig then the Princess would try to talk him out of it, or he would try to break out (as he already did several times from the Vers), and he would likely shoot his way out, doing plenty of damage and probably killing people. Again, any scenario with Slaine involved ends in catastrophe.
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 2581
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:30 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Again, any scenario with Slaine involved ends in catastrophe.

The problem for you isn't about Slaine "ending things in catastrophe" it is that the designated "Hero" of Inaho you and several other posters have glamorized in a number of posts as "a breath of fresh air in the mecha genre"spoiler[ finally died in an inglorious fashion to a character that you significantly disliked.]

If the series creators thought about such repercussions,spoiler[ that might have been the point of Inaho's fate].
Or I might be giving the show too much credit.
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 2581
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:57 pm Reply with quote
The Ep 7 conversation roughly goes like this:
Slaine: Princess, I found you! (in complete joyousness)
Inaho: The princess was (reported) dead, why are YOU still looking for her?
spoiler[Slaine: eh? (stunned)
Inaho: You knew she was alive
Slaine: what are you asking?
Inaho: tell me how/why you knew
Slaine: take me to the princess now (slightly peeved)
Inaho: answer me first
(Flyers guns retarget)
Slaine: you are using the Princess to your own ends?!
Inaho: even if she is (being used), what does it matter to you?
Slaine: what are you saying...!
(Slaine fires,as Chibi pointed out before, there was never an
animation moment of Inaho aiming, so based on the events Inaho had Slaine targeted from the beginning of the conversation)
Slaine: you are saying you are my Enemy...?!?
Inaho:you.... are my enemy.
(something to be noted, inaho does shrug and his passive face does seem to imply he feels SOME regret that he had to shoot, it can be assumed that Inaho realizes that the situation might have been solved in a different manner and like the pilot he had been talking to he let his feelings command the situation instead of amicably concluding the situation with a person that was integral in saving his own life as well as the lives of all the survivors, while inaho Says something coldly like "the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend" that doesn't necessarily mean that is Inaho's complete philosophy and simply is the "logical" choice in the situation, going on the assumption that Inaho is more empathetic than his stoic personality he calls the jet flyer "his enemy" for his own sake because Inaho might feel more regret believing that he had just shot down a potential ally.
---The interpretations are based on pure assumptions, just as well Inaho could have simply been pissed in the "you looking at my girl?" type of way, doesn't help that Inaho effectively admits "we are using the princess" and the follow up episodes have time dedicated toward Inaho and the princess getting closer.---

This is followed up in the next episode where Inaho admits his "sin" to the princess, if Inaho had no doubt the Bat flyer was his enemy or if Inaho was "cold as ice" he wouldn't have brought it up to her.)]
[/spoiler]
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:09 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The problem for you isn't about Slaine "ending things in catastrophe" it is that the designated "Hero" of Inaho you and several other posters have glamorized in a number of posts as "a breath of fresh air in the mecha genrespoiler["spoiler[ finally died in an inglorious fashion to a character that you significantly disliked.]]


Honestly, I'm not too bothered by that.spoiler[ Either he died or he didn't, and if he did, that happens in war. He did his job, he got the Princess to the goal line and protected her long enough to get the job done, even if Slaine eventually got them both killed.] My only problem with this thread is the people trying to make Slaine out to be some sort of hero, instead of the clear foil and object lesson that he was.

Quote:
spoiler[(something to be noted, inaho does shrug and his passive face does seem to imply he feels SOME regret that he had to shoot, it can be assumed that Inaho realizes that the situation might have been solved in a different manner and like the pilot he had been talking to he let his feelings command the situation instead of amicably concluding the situation with a person that was integral in saving his own life as well as the lives of all the survivors,]


I think that his regret was more in thatspoiler[ Slaine forced his hand, that SLAINE SHOT FIRST, preventing the situation from being resolved amicably. Nothing Inaho did or said forced Slaine to shoot, Slaine made that call and all blame for it and the results need to be placed firmly on his shoulders. Inaho did not react emotionally, Slaine did, Inaho's comments were perfectly rational attempts to examine the motivations of someone that he had no reason to trust.]

Again guys, your pro-Slaine arguments would make absolute, perfect sense if spoiler[Inaho had fired first. Fair enough then, but when SLAINE SHOT FIRST, there was no way Inaho could reasonably have resolved that situation, and it's complete nonsense to try to place the blame for it onto him.]
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:58 pm Reply with quote
^
And as ChibiKangaroo pointed out, Inaho must have aimed his gun first. Add in the previously-raised points like how he does not deny using the princess and his general reticence, and it is clear that Inaho was the aggressor in that situation.

Jeez, I'll ask once again; do you even read the thread?
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 2581
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:15 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
spoiler[there was no way Inaho could reasonably have resolved that situation, and it's complete nonsense to try to place the blame for it onto him.]]

Inaho could have chosen NOT to be a passive aggressive jerk in his first response to Slaine who, with a clearly joyous tone, announced that he had found the princess.

Inaho could have lied, told Slaine to "land on the island, get out of your jet, and you can meet the princess soon enough" and thrown Slaine in the brig during his pick up, instead he got into a verbal scuffle which ended up with both parties trying to shoot the other.
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EmbraceMe



Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Posts: 2013
Location: Growing old and jaded.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:50 pm Reply with quote
I don't quite have time to respond to other posts but from what I'm hearing, people are talking about how there's a possibility that Inaho pointed his gun at Slaine first. I went back to the episode and re-watched the scene over and over. I came across this:



This occurs right after Slaine aims his weapon at Inaho. Also, the way Inaho's mech holds the gun seems to be the standard practice for wielding rifles. I can't quite make out where the mech's left hand is but there are two thoughts that come:

1) The left hand is supporting the other to manage the weight of the rifle.

2) It's holding onto the sky carrier for balance.

I'm leaning towards the former.

Edit:
(Revised my atrocious grammar. . .)
Photobucket does a terrible job managing the quality of uploaded photos so here's a clearer image link.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23669
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:18 pm Reply with quote
So... is this Inaho/Slaine encounter argument going to go on until the end of time? In all my 5+ years at ANN I don't think I've seen a single plot point so endlessly re-examined. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who clearly has no life.
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FenixFiesta



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 2581
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:20 pm Reply with quote
There is an animation consistency issue, it is very clear that if the mech were shooting in its "prone state" it would have aimed/hit the left wing, however only a single muzzle rifle flash is animated and Inaho somehow hits the right wing (damage report indicates right wing damage, and smoke is trailing off the right wing).

The follow up animation makes it appear that the rifle was still somewhat in the proned and raised by the left hand, Inaho even had to move the rifle out of the way to use his left hands grapple hook so he didn't one handed shoot the right engine.


Also, Inaho's mech was already in that position right at the start of the conversation as they were making a fly by of the carrier.


Last edited by FenixFiesta on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5500
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:13 pm Reply with quote
I don't get why people are still so hunged up on who fricking aimed their gun first or who was being more passive-agressive, when the whole scene is just some make-shift contrivance to force some cookie-cutter "rivalry" between the two main characters and make everything more complicated than it should have originally been. The fall out of this relies not on the characters, who have been inconsistent as hell in their reasonings and motivations, but in the writers who decided they had to go through some mecha anime check-list just because.

About the finale, it's obvious they were going for a Code Geass cliffhanger and failed miserably, mostly because the two characters are mostly bland as fudge (Slaine at least had been somehow consistent so far, until he decided spoiler[to side with the guy who openly declared he wanted to kill the princess], seriously wtf.), not to mention their "rivalry" stems from an awkward and contrived conversation and nothing else. Seriously these two guys met ONCE and now we're supposed to believe they're fated rivals who spoiler[would shoot each other out] because they hate each other so passionately?

If JesuOtaku's theory about where the story goes from here proves true, I'm not even bothering with season two. Rating Bad.
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Ohoni



Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 3421
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:42 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
And as ChibiKangaroo pointed out, Inaho must have aimed his gun first. Add in the previously-raised points like how he does not deny using the princess and his general reticence, and it is clear that Inaho was the aggressor in that situation.


Assuming you aren't being sarcastic, you need to learn what "aggressor" means. SLAINE SHOT FIRST. The one that shoots first is the aggressor, at least in situations in which both people are armed.

Quote:
Inaho could have chosen NOT to be a passive aggressive jerk in his first response to Slaine who, with a clearly joyous tone, announced that he had found the princess.


Not really, that would be out of character, he's always a passive-aggressive jerk, that's no excuse to take a shot at him. Even if he were some completely different, nicer character, chances are Slaine's paranoia and recklessness would have caused trouble eventually.

Quote:
Inaho could have lied, told Slaine to "land on the island, get out of your jet, and you can meet the princess soon enough" and thrown Slaine in the brig during his pick up, instead he got into a verbal scuffle which ended up with both parties trying to shoot the other.


You know that any attempt to arrest Slaine would have ended in a shoot-out.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:56 pm Reply with quote
You forget CrowLia that Inaho:

1): goaded Slaine into shooting him

by

2): implying that he was holding the princess hostage

then

3): shot Slaine down

and afterwards

4): referred to Slaine as his enemy

then

5): refused to pick him up

leading Slaine to be captured by Cruhteo and tortured

Slaine protecting Saazbaum is strange, I'll give you that.

But Slaine coming across Inaho and attacking him on sight? Given what Inaho has done to him, that's entirely effing reasonable.

Ohoni wrote:
Assuming you aren't being sarcastic, you need to learn what "aggressor" means. SLAINE SHOT FIRST. The one that shoots first is the aggressor, at least in situations in which both people are armed.


You don't even know what the term means. Go back to school.

If I point a gun at police and imply something bad is going to happen to them, and they shoot me in the leg to cripple me, I am still the aggressor.

If someone tries to rob me with a gun and I quickly pull out my own gun and shoot them, they are the aggressor, not me.

Inaho was the one to cause both guns to be drawn in the first place. He's the one that goaded Slaine. That makes Inaho the aggressor.

End of discussion.

Many people have provided clear evidence on this issue over the course of literally scores of posts. You can no longer claim ignorance as the reason why you don't know what happened. If you keep on blindly insisting that Slaine was the aggressor then I will report you for flame-baiting.

So just drop it.
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Galap
Moderator


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2354
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:00 pm Reply with quote
Hey guys, HAN SHOT FIRST!!!!

That aside, spoiler[I interpreted the cause of Slaine shooting Inaho to be essentially "You made the princess go into combat and get killed. fudge you."]

Also, am I the only one who doesn't think this show became bad??
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