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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:56 pm Reply with quote
February 26th Edit: My interpretation of the ending in this opening post is technically incomplete. For those that want more of an in-depth and realized look into it, check out this post.

---

Out of lack of appreciation for this amazing work of art and to also possibly discuss the depth and complexity, I figured I might as well start up a discussion thread. For those that have actually never heard of Texhnolyze, just check out the encylcopedia entry here.

Much of what I'll talk about will be spoilers for the entire series, so don't read unless you've either seen the story from start to finish or else just want to be spoiled.

I want to address the ending first even though it was brought up already in an old thread back in July found. I feel that it has enough importance to talk about since I believe the major part of what was ultimately trying to be said at the end, and I also want to add my own take on it. Again, obvious major spoilers.

spoiler[In the final scene we see Ichise take Ran's remains to where, if I recall correctly, the Elder of Gabe had died after he kills Kano who is quite an important character to the grand scheme of things, and might be the key to solving the world of Texhnolyze itself (I'll go on about that in another post). Then, right afterwards we see him find a secluded spot, have one last look of a image of Ran's flower produced by his Texhnolyzed arm, and then die as the screen fades to black (which again might have more of an importance other than simply "The End"). And so as Ichise dies so does humanity's will to survive, as that is what he symbolizes: mankind's instinctive nature to survive in its roughest form.]

spoiler[From what I interpret, it seems as though what is being conveyed here is that eventually humans will reach a point where they will have to evolve into whatever they're destined to become next (thus the Shapes created by the Class), or else they will be left behind only to die. For those that don't accept the idea of becoming another being or else simply don't want to, they either have the choice of living out the twilight years in peace and with absolutely no will to survive, or else they will continue to fight on yet fail in the end. Fatalism is basically the prime idea here, and it connets with the inevitability that in spite of what humans attempt to do, we will reach a final point where we simply can't go on as we are or at all -- on a personal note, I can't help but agree with that concept.]

spoiler[There are a couple of connecting scenes that I would like to point out as well. Ran herself (who seems to serve as a sort of anchor to Ichise's brutal nature, and also a representative as a higher being by just about everyone else, which is an aspect that I'll again talk about in later posts) tells him that in the end he'll kill everyone and be the only one left. In a lot of ways this is true as he basically starts the collaspe of the Organo when he kills Tsujinaka, creating a sense of chaos throughout the organization. There might also be another point to consider that is in association with Kano, but as I've said before, it is something to discuss at a later post.]

spoiler[The other scene that I found slightly similar was way back in the beginning of the series at the end of episode five. This might be a bit of a stretch, but the build-up to Ichise returning to Lux, his encounter with Kano, and then his disposal of Ran's remains is reminiscent of when he was wondering aimlessly through the sewers. It wasn't until Ran put out flowers that lead him to the surface that he was able to find them. The one noticable element is that when Ichise finally escapes from the sewers is has exerted himself too much and cannot move, and the same can be said for the final scene, though that one is more final. Also in both we see Ran's lone flower and the girl in question gone as if she were never there.]

That covers the skeleton of what I wanted to say about the finale of Texhnolyze. There are numerous things that I want to talk about as I blatantly stated numerous times, but I feel that is satisfactory enough to leave it there for now.

There are certainly seemingly countless other things that I want to go over, such as spoiler[Onishi rise and fall as leader of the Organo, Shinji's inability to maintain his group, Doc's own role in all of this and her rather complex relationship and view with Ichise, the whole of Gabe and its beliefs, Yoshii's venture down to Lux and reasons why he did it, the constrasting settings of the surface world versus the underground one (particuarly this one as I felt it had a lot to comment on for something that was introduced late in the series), etc.] By any luck I'll get around to them should people be interested in discussing Texhnolyze, which I feel has A LOT to be talked about considering the series tackles a much larger amount of themes than I've seen most anime have, not to mention it having much more to say than most anime (and I certainly probably am missing a lot of what was said).

Hope to hear some replies.


Last edited by HellKorn on Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6135

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:17 am Reply with quote
I'm not very good at symbolism and philosphy and all that stuff. However, my personal view on it was similar to what you said in your second paragraph. I watched Texhnolyze a few weeks ago (yay for boxsets!) and these are my thoughts:

I think Texhnolyze as a whole could be seen spoiler[as a symbolic representation on mankind's future. Perhaps individuals or groups represent different nations or groups of nations in our world today and it is the directors vision of where they are taking us. Or something like that. I had a few ideas of who the characters or groups could potentially represent a few weeks ago, but I don't remember now. However, I'm thinking now that the characters and even the groups probably don't represent countries but rather something else, perhaps ideals or ways of thinking.]
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Kruszer
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:20 am Reply with quote
Good series but highly confusing and ultimately has a really odd conclusion which I've never been able to make sense of. Unlike Abe's other works that I've seen, Haibane Renmei and Serial Experiments Lain I wasn't nearly as impressed with Tehxnolyze as I was with them. It wasn't a bad series or anything but it just made absolutely no sense to me other than the standard "mankind is corrupt" message. I've seen it about 3 times I just don't get it. I also wasn't all that thrilled with the main character and found myself identifying more with Shinji and Oonishi. spoiler[Not a fan of the everyone dies endings either.]
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adonais



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:01 am Reply with quote
I think I need to watch it again. It was almost two years ago that I saw the whole thing, and I wasn't exactly swept off my feet. But I may have come to better appreciate the more "difficult" animes since then, so probably I should give Texhnolyze another chance..

The main issues that pulled down my rating of the series concerned the main character (what the heck's wrong with the guy, swinging away at everything that moves?) and the ending spoiler[(I never take well to endings where all the charaters just die, die, die, and then nothing...that always leaves me feeling like - what smut was the point of all this...?)]. But I confess I didn't analyze the world scenario or the symbolism very carefully, I'm sure there's a lot of interesting stuff in there that I simply didn't pick up on Sad So yeah, writing this post I just convinced myself that I should see it again (and maybe pick up the box set just to motivate myself).
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Hoenheim



Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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Location: Santa Barbara, California

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:18 am Reply with quote
I disagree with the above posters; Texhnolyze totaly amazed me, moreso than ABe's other works. One of the things I liked so much about it was how unique it was. For instance, it's unconventional method of conveying it's story. I'm sure this made it better compared to if all anime were told this way, it's uniqueness making it better. Also, as the OP mentioned, characeter's movitves were another very uniquely done thing, where theyre disputable instead of told straight out. Not so say other anime havn't done this, but it seems to have been done very well in Texhnolyze. I didn't so much appreciate it for it's symbolsim, but it's great character portrayal and as I said, it's difference.

To the comments on spoiler[the deaths at the end, that was one of my favorite parts of the series. Not so much the symbolism, but the ways the characters acted in their deaths. Shinji's death was by far my favorite, him being himself right to the end. Also the suddenness of his death made it all the more gruesome and realistic, as well as what his killer did after. Onishi's death I found to have less meaning than it was trying to, but a gruesome scene none the less. I thought the scene where Ichise owned Onishi's killers was brilliant though, the way he had such acceptence of his arm and leg he knew they would work. I thought bluehairedguy's death combined with Ran's "death" were great, in Ran showing feeling (not wanting to see Ichise alone, that's how I saw it) and the pre-ending music scene going out with a bang, as well as a great demonstration of Ichise's rage.]

Regarding Yoshii (my favorite character), I agree he's definately one worth talking about, although more straightforeward than say, Ichise.spoiler[ Yoshii's motive to cause a spectacle obviously started with him being bored of the unexciting above world. His motives after this though, I think are the more interesting ones. The way I see it, he knew the below world lived more on the edge and wanted to take advantage of this; see it in full force. Also, he just must have had a strong desire to make a difference, which his boring above world was not letting him do at all. ]

I'll always be glad to discuss Texhnolyze, as it's one of my all time favorite series.
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1800
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:41 am Reply with quote
Quote:
HellKorn wrote:

spoiler[There are a couple of connecting scenes that I would like to point out as well. Ran herself (who seems to serve as a sort of anchor to Ichise's brutal nature, and also a representative as a higher being by just about everyone else, which is an aspect that I'll again talk about in later posts) tells him that in the end he'll kill everyone and be the only one left. In a lot of ways this is true as he basically starts the collaspe of the Organo when he kills Tsujinaka, creating a sense of chaos throughout the organization. ]


OKAY, yeah.

I’m pretty sure that spoiler[Kohakura did indeed fool Ichise into killing the guy (this is always the part where I seem to get lost).

But what I’m wondering is at what point does this dawn on Ichise, exactly? I can’t seem to pinpoint it for some reason… was it during Ichise’s confrontation with Toyama? Or was it even before this?

I guess it could be that he didn't realize this up until the near parts of the end given that he was too busy trying to fulfill his duties, I dunno.

But yeah, that essentially leads to the future Ran saw at the beginning of the series (I mean, when she first saw Ichise’s future); Kano was essentially the last door to that path.]


As for me… I liked the show… gonna see it again soon, actually.

Ending was pretty solid too.

spoiler[Surprisingly enough, Kano had the answer to the whole “humans on exit” thing (though, it might take like… thousands of years or something). But you can kinda see the... uhh... irony of the end or something (that being that Kano had the answer even though it seemed like he was being a total douche... doesn't seem like the best answer, but it's definately something).]

But yeah, I'm not sure... I need to see the show again... it'll totally happen soon.
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Kagemusha



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:54 am Reply with quote
I'm honestly not suprised that some people just either don't get or don't like the symbolism and relentless fatalism of Texhnolyze; it's not an easy series to watch by any means, in terms of both graphic content and complex meaning. Before I give a few of my thoughts on the series, I'd like to say that putting aside the vast amounts of symbolism and philosophy present in the series, it works (at least for me) because of the emotional impact. I know a few people who didn't think much on analyzing the series yet loved it because it's a compelling story about human conflict, told with skilled direction and great writing. I'd probobly encourage people to not try to understand every little bit of what's going on the first time through and just get drawn into the story and the characters. Right from the first DVD I was drawn into the story by the initial episodes; some may find them boring because relatively little happens in terms of story, or the character don't come out and reveal the whole of their personality within a single episode, but I found Ichise's struggle compelling because it was so universal and told so simply. As for the themes, I won't elaborate on Hellkorn's great ideas about the ending this post, as they're pretty close to my own, but I think one if not the most important aspect of the show is Ichise's relationship with Ran.

spoiler[The comment that Ichise was like a kicked-dog who just swings at everything is pretty accurate: when we first meet him he's a purely instinctual being, the primordial side of human nature. He's lacked love and human contact for years since his mother passed away, and because of this he's unable to interact with other humans except through violence and sex (which is neither passionate or lustful, and devoid of any meaning). What he does possess however with the unbreakable will to survive; in some ways, this does make him little more than an animal at first. What changes this is Ran.

Ran is probobly the most ambiguous of the major characters, and I believe that was a good choice. Even within the series her role is undefined for the most part. I've heard it said that she's suppose to be the idea of god, but I see her being something more along the lines of mythology: an idea that all humans, reguardless of culture or religion posses. Something that explains the world around them, and more importantly gives their lives meaning. The key moment is in the sewers, when Ichise wanders about aimlessly. He posseses the instinct to survive, but this alone can't save him. It's Ran who "enlightens" him so to speak through the flower. Through this simple act of beauty in a harsh world she gives him meaning and hope (the relationship of mythology to mankind).]


This is one of the more univeral ideas about the series, which in my opinion makes it one of the most accesable; I know I have more to say about their relationship towards the end of the series (as well as many, many other ideas so far unaddressed), but I'm a bit preoccupied at the moment, and will get to them at later posts.
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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:28 am Reply with quote
can someone tell me spoiler[what he was looking at at the end?] i never got this scene for some reason.

Last edited by v1cious on Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
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Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:42 am Reply with quote
I'm pretty sure it was:

spoiler[That flower thingy that Ran carries around

I have not the slightest idea why, but initially, I was under the impression that it was Rafia, only to figure out later (much later) that Rafia is like... uhh... that green stuff in the end.]
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vroenis



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:05 am Reply with quote
You've all made fantastic comments, and like some of you, Texhnolyze is an absolute favourite of mine, and is ranked as equal first with only two other series as my most treasured productions ever.

However it's an interesting thing with me; this thread is great, and your discussions are well developed and fantastic, but on a personal level, I actually am not really inclined to discuss my interpretations on Texhnolyze for a few different reasons. The most important reason though is that sure, there are a lot of representations in this production, a lot of symbolism to do with instinct, human behaviour, socio-political interraction, et al; the series is indeed rich with commentary on many of these very complex ideas. However what compels me the most about Texhnolyze is as Kagemusha has mentioned, the emotional response it evokes in me. For me it is actually an extremely deeply intimate work where the sense of emotion transcends the core-narratives. Though of-course the ideologies are extremely different, so too the presentation styles, I actually feel very similar with Stand Alone Complex. The core-narratives of these productions are fantastic; they're a feast for any agile mind, but to me the real objectives of the works is much more personal, much more spiritual if you will (I don't need that in a religious sense of-course, but you knew that... I hope...), and actually much more to do with individual personal emotion rather than ideology that includes humanity as a whole, or as a culture.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but because of the deeply personal way that I interpret Texhnolyze, it makes it difficult for me to describe my thoughts on its subtexts. At this point I must also say that I didn't find it confusing for one moment; I feel as though ABe, Ueda and Konaka (Serial Experiments: Lain would be their other main project toegether) speak my language. They create works that strike me directly in my abstract thought patterns and emotional responses.
In any case, while I agree that most of the examples given in the posts above are indeed good insights into some of the sub-texts of Texhnolyze, for me there is much more to the series than even those deep subtexts. I'm not having a go at anyone at all, the discussion here is great - I suppose I wanted to raise my hand as a fellow fan, but at least attempt explaining why I might not be so willing to leap into discussion.

When I think about Texhnolyze, from start to end and everything in-between, I really feel that the entire piece is actually about love and intimacy. That might sound strange given what appears to be the subject matter on the surface, but to me that is actually what all the subtexts are pointing towards, it's just presented in an extremely different way to what most of us are accustomed to seeing. I don't expect everyone to share the same points of view at all, I fully respect everyone's take on anything, especially something as rich with symbolism as Texhnolyze, however I've always been a great believer in the idea that anything one can read into an artwork is there for the taking, whether the creators intended it or not. This is part of the reason I see Texhnolyze and Stand Alone Complex to be focussed quite intently on love, it's just done extremely subtlely, in tiny pieces, slowly one by one, until there is a very deep and very personal representation of love...

(Reads over post...) - no offence will be taken to any who think I'm totally insane.
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cheezisgoooood



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:38 am Reply with quote
Just when I was starting to feel less enthusiastic of my purchase of Texhnolyze in the TRSI Geneon sale, this thread comes along. Now I'm all excited and hyped up again.
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Anthony P



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 227
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:47 pm Reply with quote
Kruszer wrote:
. Unlike Abe's other works that I've seen, Haibane Renmei and Serial Experiments Lain I wasn't nearly as impressed with Tehxnolyze as I was with them.

Hoenheim wrote:
I disagree with the above posters; Texhnolyze totaly amazed me, moreso than ABe's other works.

If I recall correctly, in an interview with ABe and Konaka (I believe it was a dvd extra for Texhnolyze) it was said that the series was Konaka's brainchild, and that ABe contributed little more than character designs.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:18 pm Reply with quote
I don't think ABe usually does much beyond character designs. Haibane Renmei was based on doujins he created so he had a lot more to do with that series than the others. But I don't think he had a big role in Lain or Neia_7 either.
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:16 pm Reply with quote
If we're to talk about Texhnolyze on a more "human" level... then, yeah, it's still pretty good.

For example:

spoiler[I was actually very fond of the 2nd episode where Ichise goes around the city without an arm and a leg; it was conveyed pretty realistically and you could also see his values through the experience.

More specifically, when he's at a shop and this lady gives him food for free, he doesn't accept it... mainly because it's free and his pride wouldn’t let him accept it for free (he was quite ready to pay off the lady with the money in his mouth).

THEN, in the next episode, at Doc's place, he actually begs for water even though the past experience is in mind...

Made sense to me. In fact, it made a lot of sense.

I commend Hiroshi Hamasaki and Madhouse for doing such a bang up job and maximizing expression and whatnot with the budget; it's excellent... in fact, it's sexcellent *har har har*.

Yeah... Texhnolyze really felt like a really "human" show, regardless of what people may have to say about it's pacing and crap. There were a ton of scenes like the one's above...

Like... the thing where Hal decides to leave the group; I love the scene (and the music) where Yoko suddenly uses him in an attempt to grab Shinji's attention while Shinji was focusing his attention on Michiko (Onishi's secretary).]


...

Damn, I'd better watch this again soon.

But... uhh... I'm still working through my new Geneon stuff.

Stellvia is awesome.
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RPGamer246



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:39 pm Reply with quote
i just bought dvd 1 from fye for $15 and the 1st episode didn't pull me in, im new to the psycological anime other than maybe paranoia agent, im getting lain from the geneon sale, i hope its good but even if i don't like it $4 a dvd is still good for an add to the collection.
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