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vroenis



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:29 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
I don't think ABe usually does much beyond character designs. Haibane Renmei was based on doujins he created so he had a lot more to do with that series than the others. But I don't think he had a big role in Lain or Neia_7 either.


You're fairly right I think; while I do think he does have a signifficant level of contribution toward the ideologies of the various productions, Ueda and Konaka especially do much of the core-writing, of-course with the exception of Haibane Renmei.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:29 pm Reply with quote
Just to note: I said in my first post that spoiler[the Shapes were created by the Class. This is both correct and incorrect in that Kano is a member of the Class and these things were created from his own ideal, however much of the Class were not in favor of this as shown by what the Mothers said about him.]

HitokiriShadow wrote:
spoiler[However, I'm thinking now that the characters and even the groups probably don't represent countries but rather something else, perhaps ideals or ways of thinking.]


spoiler[I would think that certain characters or groups weren't just limited to ideals or concepts (like, say, Ichise being shown as humanity's eternal struggle to survive against the inevitable), but it can also be drawn to show different levels or "classes" of society. Take Yoshii, for example, who we learn belonged to the upper world where he was "the good 'Yes, sir!' man who willingly did his job" until he became tired of it, leaving to the world below. Or say Shinji who believes that people should do as they will and shouldn't be controlled, rebelling against what has been established as the city run by the Organo yet still sharing similar qualities with Onishi.]

There is certainly a lot to consider there, though I do believe that spoiler[the people of Gabe might be symbolic of what people with more spiritual traditions are, depending on The Seer, in this case Ran.]

Kruszer wrote:
Unlike Abe's other works that I've seen, Haibane Renmei and Serial Experiments Lain I wasn't nearly as impressed with Tehxnolyze as I was with them.


On the contrary, I myself found Serial Experiments Lain to be lacking the elements that Texhnolyze readily provided. While I did greatly enjoy Lain, I felt that it became too absorbed in its surrealism that it lost a lot of what it was trying to say, and also except for Alice and Lain herself to a lesser degree, I didn't really find the characters to be that engaging. Haibane Renmei I was incredibly moved and loved it from start to finish (I mean, I rated it as "Masterpiece"), but Texhnolyze gave focus to a grander plot -- to its credit, it is possible as it was twenty-two episodes and not thirteen as Haibane Renmei was.

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I also wasn't all that thrilled with the main character and found myself identifying more with Shinji and Oonishi.


Ichise himself certainly wasn't as complex as Onishi and Shinji, but I found his tale to be much more accessible than the other two main male protagonists. Different strokes for different folks, or however that saying goes.

adonais wrote:
The main issues that pulled down my rating of the series concerned the main character (what the heck's wrong with the guy, swinging away at everything that moves?)


By any luck you have a greater understanding behind Ichise's behavior and persona with these posts.

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and the ending spoiler[(I never take well to endings where all the charaters just die, die, die, and then nothing...that always leaves me feeling like - what smut was the point of all this...?)].


spoiler[Some, if not the majority of those who watched and read fiction aren't fond of massive or full character deaths, which I can understand, but there was a lot of be said and taken from the ending.]

I fully recommend giving it a second go.

Hoenheim wrote:
Regarding Yoshii (my favorite character), I agree he's definately one worth talking about, although more straightforeward than say, Ichise.spoiler[ Yoshii's motive to cause a spectacle obviously started with him being bored of the unexciting above world. His motives after this though, I think are the more interesting ones. The way I see it, he knew the below world lived more on the edge and wanted to take advantage of this; see it in full force. Also, he just must have had a strong desire to make a difference, which his boring above world was not letting him do at all. ]


spoiler[Nice points, and I would also like to mention that part of what Yoshii wanted to accomplish -- by his own intentions at first or else it gradually came to him -- was to further along the people in Lux by having them come to terms with their potential, to see what they can really do. It is quite similar to what Doc was attempting to do with her "perfected prize" in the form of Ichise and his Texhnolyzed limbs, and also what the Class did by forcing people to become Shapes, the apparent next step in evolution.]

Yoshii is a very mysterious character that I doubt I even fully understand, since I can't recall any reason why spoiler[he himself has had part of his body Texhnolyzed.]

DKL wrote:
OKAY, yeah.

I’m pretty sure that spoiler[Kohakura did indeed fool Ichise into killing the guy (this is always the part where I seem to get lost).

But what I’m wondering is at what point does this dawn on Ichise, exactly? I can’t seem to pinpoint it for some reason… was it during Ichise’s confrontation with Toyama? Or was it even before this?

I guess it could be that he didn't realize this up until the near parts of the end given that he was too busy trying to fulfill his duties, I dunno.]


I'm unsure when spoiler[Ichise realized what he had been tricked into, though it could very well be from the start due to his final comment to Tsujinaka. Honestly, though, I can't really say as I don't remember as much as I would like to since I saw it over two months ago and this is the first time that I've gone over this information.]

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spoiler[But yeah, that essentially leads to the future Ran saw at the beginning of the series (I mean, when she first saw Ichise’s future); Kano was essentially the last door to that path.]


spoiler[In more ways than one, actually. When Ichise just punched Kano's head right off his body, I wonder if there was more to it than "Ichise killing the last of 'em." While I won't go into details in this post, there were points during the series in which I wonder if what is being given to the viewer(s) truly real. Certain events, particularly when Tatsuya saw Yoshii in their old workplace and and Ichise saw his father, Ikuse, in the world above. But I'll go over that in another post, hopefully my next one.]

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As for me… I liked the show… gonna see it again soon, actually.


Wish I could say the same about watching it again soon. I have a fair amount of new manga and anime that I want to watch, not to mention obligations in my own life taking importance above all else... Man, winter break cannot come fast enough...

Kagemusha wrote:
Before I give a few of my thoughts on the series, I'd like to say that putting aside the vast amounts of symbolism and philosophy present in the series, it works (at least for me) because of the emotional impact. I know a few people who didn't think much on analyzing the series yet loved it because it's a compelling story about human conflict, told with skilled direction and great writing.


I can't agree enough with you here. While there were a lot of concepts and symbolism being thrown at you, there was also of course the struggle by the characters themselves. The characters were far from the cookie-cutter stereotypes that we've seen in numerous anime, and most, if not all, were hardly what I would call "likable," "enjoyable," or "appealing." Yet it was their conflicts and setting that drew me in when I was watching, and ultimately I became sympathetic to the majority of the cast.

Plus, in addition to the sparse but still notable touching moments early on like spoiler[Ran leading Ichise out of the sewers and Yoshii's encounter with that undesirable prostitute,] the final events leading up to the series really got to me, particularly for the females such as when spoiler[we find out what happened to Onishi's personal assistant in that she was beaten and raped (the final scene between her and Onishi was an emotional one), Doc's resolve gradually falling until she commits suicide (in a subtle but powerful way), and Ran's fate in general.] Including the final ending song that was played -- which has the most fitting lyrics to any anime that I've come across -- and the last moments of the series, I was spoiler[utterly moved and silently in tears. On one end it was hopeless, but on the other it was completely beautiful and just left me in awe once the final episode ended and it went back to the menu screen.]

But that's just my personal affinity for the anime, so I digress.

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spoiler[The comment that Ichise was like a kicked-dog who just swings at everything is pretty accurate: when we first meet him he's a purely instinctual being, the primordial side of human nature. He's lacked love and human contact for years since his mother passed away, and because of this he's unable to interact with other humans except through violence and sex (which is neither passionate or lustful, and devoid of any meaning). What he does possess however with the unbreakable will to survive; in some ways, this does make him little more than an animal at first. What changes this is Ran.

Ran is probobly the most ambiguous of the major characters, and I believe that was a good choice. Even within the series her role is undefined for the most part. I've heard it said that she's suppose to be the idea of god, but I see her being something more along the lines of mythology: an idea that all humans, reguardless of culture or religion posses. Something that explains the world around them, and more importantly gives their lives meaning. The key moment is in the sewers, when Ichise wanders about aimlessly. He posseses the instinct to survive, but this alone can't save him. It's Ran who "enlightens" him so to speak through the flower. Through this simple act of beauty in a harsh world she gives him meaning and hope (the relationship of mythology to mankind).]


Very good analysis. I would also like to add on that spoiler[Ran most likely helped Ichise and didn't want him to suffer as he did/was inevitably going to for a couple reasons. On the surface he is a pitiable creature and has had little to no luck in his life at all. He lacked direction and just continued to not make any progress at all until Ran showed up -- this is symbolically represented the most in the sewer scene that has been mentioned a fair number of times. I believe the other reason why she might have cared for him was because he didn't view nor treat her as this "higher being" and placed many responsibilities on her that she couldn't endure/didn't want to have.]

On a related note, I want to bring up the opening and closing themes for the series. I think that it can be agreed upon that spoiler[the single line from the opening "Guardian Angel" can be directed from Ichise to Ran since he makes a similar remark when he returns to the station and "sees" her. Similar case with "Walking Through the Empty Age" (beautiful song, by the way, despite that Yoko Ishida is a native-Japanese speaker, she was able to handle the English lyrics well enough) which is linked most prominently with the final episode when Ichise walked across the barren city with Ran distantly next to him.] I become a bit curious though as to spoiler[who the lyrics in the first ending theme "Poem of the Moon" are for. My mind might be stuck at the beginning of the series for this one, but somehow I think of Ichise losing his mother at such a young age since we see him as a child in the ending theme (which, even though we only had two separate images there, seemed visually beautiful with the rose(?) in front of his mouth).] Anyone's thoughts on that?

vroenis wrote:
The core-narratives of these productions are fantastic; they're a feast for any agile mind, but to me the real objectives of the works is much more personal, much more spiritual if you will (I don't need that in a religious sense of-course, but you knew that... I hope...), and actually much more to do with individual personal emotion rather than ideology that includes humanity as a whole, or as a culture.


Certainly. I find that in a lot of complex and surreal works part of the message that they want to convey is with human conflict, and of course emotions are the center or basis of that.

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At this point I must also say that I didn't find it confusing for one moment; I feel as though ABe, Ueda and Konaka (Serial Experiments: Lain would be their other main project toegether) speak my language. They create works that strike me directly in my abstract thought patterns and emotional responses.


I've never really found myself confused per se on what was trying to be said to the audience with fiction that contains surrealism. There are of course minor details involving the plot and characters that take a bit of time to decipher, but what is meant to be taken from the work is still something that I'm able to grasp at least by the end of the work.

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In any case, while I agree that most of the examples given in the posts above are indeed good insights into some of the sub-texts of Texhnolyze, for me there is much more to the series than even those deep subtexts.


Same case for me, though in the case with discussing said subtexts I like to get a better understanding of the material that I'm dealing with, and I also like to exercise my mind a bit outside of typical education.

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When I think about Texhnolyze, from start to end and everything in-between, I really feel that the entire piece is actually about love and intimacy.


Or lack thereof. Wink

Really though, I do agree somewhat on the point that Texhnolyze deals a lot with compassion and love/wanting to be loved itself. I mean, plenty of the relationships in the story deal with that, and, at the cost of possibly sounding corny, if you deny that then you yourself have never loved and/or been loved (or something like that).

Anthony P wrote:
If I recall correctly, in an interview with ABe and Konaka (I believe it was a dvd extra for Texhnolyze) it was said that the series was Konaka's brainchild, and that ABe contributed little more than character designs.


The interview was with ABe and Ueda, actually.

HitokiriShadow wrote:
I don't think ABe usually does much beyond character designs. Haibane Renmei was based on doujins he created so he had a lot more to do with that series than the others. But I don't think he had a big role in Lain or Neia_7 either.


Unless our sources here at ANN are wrong, his page on the encyclopedia states that he was the "original creator" of Lain, so I believe he had more involvement there compared to Texhnolyze. But you're right in that Haibane Renmei was primarily a product of his design... which in that case I certainly wouldn't mind not only seeing future anime that he'll work with, but future anime that he himself will be the head of.

DKL wrote:
[spoiler]I was actually very fond of the 2nd episode where Ichise goes around the city without an arm and a leg; it was conveyed pretty realistically and you could also see his values through the experience.[/spoiler


To see spoiler[how Ichise was able to adjust to his situation was a very interesting case to watch. I wasn't sure of what to make of his character in episode one, but in episode two we're given more insight, not to mention it was there that I got the connection of Ichise representing humanity's struggle to survive.]

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I commend Hiroshi Hamasaki and Madhouse for doing such a bang up job and maximizing expression and whatnot with the budget; it's excellent... in fact, it's sexcellent *har har har*.


Madhouse really cannot get enough praise. They're easily one of the most consistent animation studios out there, both in terms of art/animation and storytelling. Your avatar reminds me that I have Monster sitting on my computer, which I look forward to watching after having read the manga about a year ago.

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spoiler[Like... the thing where Hal decides to leave the group; I love the scene (and the music) where Yoko suddenly uses him in an attempt to grab Shinji's attention while Shinji was focusing his attention on Michiko (Onishi's secretary).]


spoiler[That was a rather sad scene to watch considering that it showed how lonely Hal and Yoko are. Unrequited love isn't a pleasant thing.]
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Anthony P



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 227
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:07 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Anthony P wrote:
If I recall correctly, in an interview with ABe and Konaka (I believe it was a dvd extra for Texhnolyze) it was said that the series was Konaka's brainchild, and that ABe contributed little more than character designs.


The interview was with ABe and Ueda, actually.

Oops! It's been awhile, it has.

HellKorn wrote:
HitokiriShadow wrote:
I don't think ABe usually does much beyond character designs. Haibane Renmei was based on doujins he created so he had a lot more to do with that series than the others. But I don't think he had a big role in Lain or Neia_7 either.


Unless our sources here at ANN are wrong, his page on the encyclopedia states that he was the "original creator" of Lain, so I believe he had more involvement there compared to Texhnolyze. But you're right in that Haibane Renmei was primarily a product of his design... which in that case I certainly wouldn't mind not only seeing future anime that he'll work with, but future anime that he himself will be the head of.

I'm likely wrong again, but I recall hearing or reading somewhere that ABe either wrote or oversaw writing of the script for Haibane, and that he more or less exerted a general creative control over the series as a whole. Along with writing and illustrating the original doujins, of course.
And he is credited as being the original creator of Lain, which as I understood it entailed creating the rough framework of the series and it's characters, while the rest of the staff worked out the details and production. I swear I heard or read that somewhere before too, but naturally I can't remember exactly.
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vroenis



Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:39 pm Reply with quote
You've made some fantastic points Hellkorn, as have all posters here. I suppose I might just give a little of my perceptions afterall.

I agree with your response to my comments on Texhnolyze being about love/lack of love; I'd like to expand a little on how I see things, though forgive me if I intentionally come across as vague - I don't want to polute anyone's interpretations of the work, I truly believe that everyone's points of view are valid.

The representations of love that I see in Texhnolyze aren't limited to the strict interactions between the characters, though they themselves are of-course heavy with symbolism; The Doc and Ichise, Doc and Onishii, Ichise and Onishii, Onishii and his secretary (one of my most precious examples of extremely subtle yet powerful character interactions in anime), and the many other character relationships. I don't want to belittle those relationships, but for me they grow by the subtler representations of the characters' interactions with the city itself. spoiler[Yoshii, Onishii, Ran and the leader of the seperatist group against texhnolyzation (forgive me for forgetting his name - at times I tend to identify character by my cerebral associations with them rather than their actual names), to me, actually all share the same objective for Lux; they each have a deep and earnest, almost desperate love for the city and its people, but each of their respective perceptions of unifying and seeing the its people transcended is entirely different. Even Shinji to a certain extent shares the same love for the city, but he tries to assume a passive role advocating peace among peaceful people, and to let aggressors destroy each-other. Yoshii's forced inclusion of Shinji's group into the first Matsuri is a foreshadowing of what will eventually happen when the Shapes come to supposedly unify lux; there can be no way to live in the environment without being part of the ecosystem and its evolutions, be it progressive or retroactive.]

I actually found that almost every socio-political intrigue in the narrative was in some way a reflection of love and intimacy, something that becomes more apparent as the episodes progress towards the final chapter. For me one of the most signifficant tent-pegs of the series is spoiler[Eriko's (the Doc) plea to Ichise to hold her firmly, that 'This is what my Texhnolyze is for' (again, forgive my hazy recolection of the dialogue), then her ghostly monolgue about him as we see her empty room in the world above. This to me said so much about every element of the narrative - there was such a stillness and serenity in those scenes that exhibited a sense of intimacy that thus far we hadn't seen in the series, except perhaps in a different form through Ran, who as many have noted already is one of the other deeply spiritual characters in the cast.]

Texhnolyze, like most abstract pieces, is a work that I feel can't be fully understood until the entire piece has been experienced, and the constantly changing contexts of certain elements is part of that experience, finally drawing to a conclusion that may not be exactly where the earlier events might have suggested they were going. Certainly I've read posts around the net that state spoiler[how much people have hated Yoshii, eager to point him out as an evil character, but I must admit that even when he was doing all of those subjectively terrible things, I always felt there was much more to his character. Granted, he has an extreme way of expressing himself, but I don't interpret his actions as malicious. To me there are extremely subtle but still clearly evident elements of sorrow and hope in his character, made more evident as we see Lux undergo the changes that it eventually does after his death.] In a sense, though I know many viewers probably came to their own conclusions about Yoshii before the end credits of the final episode rolled but for the sake of the example, I still feel that most of the show's individual elements, indeed like the core-narrative itself, can't be fully understood in context and appreciated until the whole image complete; this is perhaps one of the most amazing things about Texhnolyze.

I know it's long ang vague, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, but hopefully I've gotten at least a little of my perspective out there in a way that makes some kind of sense.
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Kruszer
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:08 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
On the contrary, I myself found Serial Experiments Lain to be lacking the elements that Texhnolyze readily provided. While I did greatly enjoy Lain, I felt that it became too absorbed in its surrealism that it lost a lot of what it was trying to say, and also except for Alice and Lain herself to a lesser degree, I didn't really find the characters to be that engaging. Haibane Renmei I was incredibly moved and loved it from start to finish (I mean, I rated it as "Masterpiece"), but Texhnolyze gave focus to a grander plot -- to its credit, it is possible as it was twenty-two episodes and not thirteen as Haibane Renmei was.


I liked Serial Experiments Lain a lot both for the characters, as well as the sureal psychological and philosophical elements. Also I was going for my degree in Web Development at the time so all of the internet and computer talk was right up my alley and very interesting. It made me lose sleep at night thinking about what went on and what would happen next which is something I didn't get from Texhnolyze. Gave it an Excellent personally. Haibane Renmei on the other hand impressed me for different reasons entirely, it was all about the characters and it was a whole series where not much at all really happens until the end. However, it somehow manages to keep you on the edge of your seat with plenty of drama and interesting goings-on. The real clincher here though is overall message which I absolutely loved. A definite masterpiece I agree.

Texhnolyze was interesting and all but I'd value those elements above more than I would a series with a main character I didn't like, messages that didn't really hit home, and spoiler[a kill 'em all ending, which either in anime or live action, is a trend which I loathe] and basicly where most of the point deduction occurs. So it got a Good rating from me instead.

Hope that clears some of my views up for you.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:00 pm Reply with quote
[Disregard this hasty post.]

Last edited by HellKorn on Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:04 pm Reply with quote
Anthony P wrote:
I'm likely wrong again, but I recall hearing or reading somewhere that ABe either wrote or oversaw writing of the script for Haibane, and that he more or less exerted a general creative control over the series as a whole. Along with writing and illustrating the original doujins, of course.


I believe that you're correct here. He wasn't the director, specific episode director, nor was he behind the storyboards, but ultimately Haibane Renmei is ABe's work due to him being the original creator, heading the composition of the series, and also doing the script.

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And he is credited as being the original creator of Lain, which as I understood it entailed creating the rough framework of the series and it's characters, while the rest of the staff worked out the details and production. I swear I heard or read that somewhere before too, but naturally I can't remember exactly.


Essentially right, if I'm not mistaken.

vroenis wrote:
The representations of love that I see in Texhnolyze aren't limited to the strict interactions between the characters, though they themselves are of-course heavy with symbolism; The Doc and Ichise, Doc and Onishii, Ichise and Onishii, Onishii and his secretary (one of my most precious examples of extremely subtle yet powerful character interactions in anime), and the many other character relationships.


Agreed, though I have to say that I believe spoiler[Ichise himself didn't really "love" anyone in the series like, say, how Doc came to love him. He certainly comes to care for many of the people around him, and there is a lot of subtle instances to indicate so. I mean, Toyama was probably the closest one that Ichise could ever call "a friend," but even then he was too distant to him. In Doc's case he obviously grew from being bitter towards what she had done to him to caring about her. Out of all the people that Ichise wanted to be with I would say that Ran was probably the most significant one due to his concern about leaving her in Lux and wanting to bring her to the upper world, but he in a way akin to Toyama, he was still emotionally distant from her despite being the fact that she was able to calm down and reach him unlike anyone else.]

Of course that might be the cyncical part of me talking, but spoiler[Ichise seemed to lost and unable to focus to really come to "love" someone. He came to terms with his father, wanted to protect Ran, and started to find some purpose with the Organo, but by the end he still came up short and could not find what he had lost since his mother died.]

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I don't want to belittle those relationships, but for me they grow by the subtler representations of the characters' interactions with the city itself. spoiler[Yoshii, Onishii, Ran and the leader of the seperatist group against texhnolyzation (forgive me for forgetting his name - at times I tend to identify character by my cerebral associations with them rather than their actual names), to me, actually all share the same objective for Lux; they each have a deep and earnest, almost desperate love for the city and its people, but each of their respective perceptions of unifying and seeing the its people transcended is entirely different. Even Shinji to a certain extent shares the same love for the city, but he tries to assume a passive role advocating peace among peaceful people, and to let aggressors destroy each-other. Yoshii's forced inclusion of Shinji's group into the first Matsuri is a foreshadowing of what will eventually happen when the Shapes come to supposedly unify lux; there can be no way to live in the environment without being part of the ecosystem and its evolutions, be it progressive or retroactive.]


Nice concept, and I truly agree on your assessment of spoiler[how much Onishi charished the city. While others wanted to in some way make their mark and institue some form of chaos, he wanted to make things better while still maintaining the same principle that they had always followed.]

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[spoiler]I actually found that almost every socio-political intrigue in the narrative was in some way a reflection of love and intimacy, something that becomes more apparent as the episodes progress towards the final chapter. For me one of the most signifficant tent-pegs of the series is spoiler[Eriko's (the Doc) plea to Ichise to hold her firmly, that 'This is what my Texhnolyze is for' (again, forgive my hazy recolection of the dialogue), then her ghostly monolgue about him as we see her empty room in the world above. This to me said so much about every element of the narrative - there was such a stillness and serenity in those scenes that exhibited a sense of intimacy that thus far we hadn't seen in the series, except perhaps in a different form through Ran, who as many have noted already is one of the other deeply spiritual characters in the cast.]


This isn't relating too much to what you addressed, but I would like to not that it is ironic in many ways considering spoiler[that Doc did create the ultimate technology for humans to progress and still stay as humans, yet it still wasn't enough and failed in the end. As been mentioned numerous times fatalism is an important aspect of Texhnolyze, and so humanity was going to eventually fall in spite of the progression that we made.]

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Texhnolyze, like most abstract pieces, is a work that I feel can't be fully understood until the entire piece has been experienced, and the constantly changing contexts of certain elements is part of that experience, finally drawing to a conclusion that may not be exactly where the earlier events might have suggested they were going. Certainly I've read posts around the net that state spoiler[how much people have hated Yoshii, eager to point him out as an evil character, but I must admit that even when he was doing all of those subjectively terrible things, I always felt there was much more to his character. Granted, he has an extreme way of expressing himself, but I don't interpret his actions as malicious. To me there are extremely subtle but still clearly evident elements of sorrow and hope in his character, made more evident as we see Lux undergo the changes that it eventually does after his death.] In a sense, though I know many viewers probably came to their own conclusions about Yoshii before the end credits of the final episode rolled but for the sake of the example, I still feel that most of the show's individual elements, indeed like the core-narrative itself, can't be fully understood in context and appreciated until the whole image complete; this is perhaps one of the most amazing things about Texhnolyze.


I agree, it's important to take all events and factors into consideration before forming an opinion on one's work. I myself find it to be superficial to "hate" a character in the concept that most people do. If Yoshii was made to be "likable" then he wouldn't be the character that we've come to know. More often naught people form their own opinions about characters in fiction (and people in real life too, for that matter) based either on first impressions or such vindictive and narrow-minded views that they won't alter their stance to be, at the very least more understanding and compassionate to fully understand the characters/each other.

And that, my friends, is quite a common theme in anime, no? (Get to posting more, too!)

Kruszer wrote:
I liked Serial Experiments Lain a lot both for the characters, as well as the sureal psychological and philosophical elements.


Personally I didn't find most of the characters to be that interesting or have much depth as far as characters go. They work much more in terms of being plot devices, save for Alice and Lain as I already mentioned.

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Texhnolyze was interesting and all but I'd value those elements above more than I would a series with a main character I didn't like, messages that didn't really hit home, and spoiler[a kill 'em all ending, which either in anime or live action, is a trend which I loathe] and basicly where most of the point deduction occurs. So it got a Good rating from me instead.

Hope that clears some of my views up for you.


Eh, it's a matter up to someone's personal tastes. Though I'm a bit curious as to what it is about spoiler[the kill 'em all endings] that you dislike.
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Kruszer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:15 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Eh, it's a matter up to someone's personal tastes. Though I'm a bit curious as to what it is about spoiler[the kill 'em all endings] that you dislike.


spoiler[Well, main character death is not really a neccessity to make a show good. It seems like a huge waste to me to spend time watching a series and investing emotionally in characters only to have them up and croak. However, that I can deal with, sometimes it really works well to serve the plot and then I don't mind it. Sometimes it even makes the series better. For instance if a character dies sacrificing him/herself to save others, or for something he or she believes in. Heck I'd even take the classic "villain kills off a character's friend or lover to piss them off" plot device. ]

spoiler[However, sometimes it doesn't work, it depends on the circumstances, for instance if the death has no purpose or meaning. Example would be if somebody dies protecting someone but that person who was momentarily saved also perishes, that just turns the death into a trivial waste that was all for nothing. Shows where the entire cast dies or humanity is exterminated on the other hand like Texhnolyze just rub me the wrong way, because while those people did some incredibly cool and interesting things durring the show, ultimately humanity is dead and gone and nobody will ever know about them or remember those things. To die lonely and be forgotten with nobody to rember your existance is the most terrible thing that could ever happen to anyone period. That would be the reason why I dislike the ending if I had to put my finger on it, it's utter fatalism which I don't agree with or subscribe to. Sure there's some really crappy people in the world but there's just as many reasonable and good people.] This is also the main reason why I dislike another series, spoiler[Gantz].
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adonais



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:58 am Reply with quote
Kruszer wrote:
Sure there's some really crappy people in the world but there's just as many reasonable and good people.[/spoiler] This is also the main reason why I dislike another series, spoiler[Gantz].

Ah, but where the end of Texhnolyze didn't do it for me, spoiler[Gantz] pulled it off in spades because spoiler[they all die in the beginning of the show, and the end brings a sense of closure, which I felt was missing from Texhnolyze.] But thanks for making the comparison, it made me realize that I might come to appreciate Texhnolyze better upon a second viewing.
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1849
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:34 am Reply with quote
Wait... I didn't read through, but I'm very curious as to what sense of closure you're talking about for that show... uh... that other show... given that, I thought, it was quite possibly one of the more confused endings I've seen for an anime...

I mean, spoiler[Ichiro Itano] literally deviates from all the build up he... er... built up until that point (seriously... I kinda had a really hard time connecting what was being talked about in the first half of the last episode with what was being talked about in the... well, the last part)...

This was too bad given that the spoiler[last game] was the only part of the series I could actually take seriously (even with the incredibly *incredibly* contrived build up to that part of the story *even I was surprised when I wasn't able to suspend disbelief given that I'm generally good at it*)...

It was one of those moments where I really felt like the ending got pulled out of someone's ass (that being the director's, most likely).

I mean, that feeling in its entirety.

Okay, okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit... but still...

spoiler[The sudden shift in focus from the perception of killing people to "standing strong on your own"]

was... quite vague...

The worst part is that the director tries to convince the viewer that there is some semblance of unity in theme when he:

spoiler[Sets the final scenes at the train station thing]

It was just... forced.

But, I dunno...

Still... even if a connection can be made by a good stance (mainly because of my possible inability to interpret the ending), it was arguably rushed...

And it's the kind of ambiguous ending that's just... not cool (for me).

That said, the show actually was a lot of fun, so I forgave it.

And I should REALLY think that out better... but it's late.

... as for Texhnolyze... I should read through the post, but I'm...

...

lazy.

Yeah, the above just kinda caught my attention for some reason.[/spoiler]
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adonais



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:05 am Reply with quote
DKL wrote:

... as for Texhnolyze... I should read through the post, but I'm...

...

Yeah, wrong thread. But thanks for opining anyway!

(try the search engine on somehting like spoiler["Gantz ]ending")

(and why are we using spoiler tags for this??? I'm just going with the flow here..)
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:07 am Reply with quote
I actually... have not the slightest idea...

The ironic thing is that, should someone had seen ALL of Texhnolyze and not the other show... highlighting the spoiler essentially...

You know... spoils it.

Yeah, that was weird.
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Kruszer
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Exactly I didn't want anybody complaining I spoiled that other certain series for them, thus the tags. Now back to Texhnolyze I don't want to derail the thread.
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cheezisgoooood



Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:31 pm Reply with quote
So...many...spoiler tags...can't...go on...reading through thread...
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:35 pm Reply with quote
Kruszer wrote:
spoiler[Well, main character death is not really a neccessity to make a show good.]


spoiler[I agree, but it's an element of a show and its overall importance to it. Did they kill that character because it had significance to what was trying to be said, the overall atmosphere and developments of the story, or just to invoke a cheap emotional response from the audience? I'd say that the deaths of Texhnolyze are a mix between one and two because they just simply kill them without any awful last minute speeches about the meaning of life or that garb. Also some of the characters died not even achieving their goals, which I felt brought even more realism to that aspect.]

Quote:
spoiler[It seems like a huge waste to me to spend time watching a series and investing emotionally in characters only to have them up and croak. However, that I can deal with, sometimes it really works well to serve the plot and then I don't mind it. Sometimes it even makes the series better. For instance if a character dies sacrificing him/herself to save others, or for something he or she believes in. Heck I'd even take the classic "villain kills off a character's friend or lover to piss them off" plot device.]


spoiler[There is importance in death, yes, but I don't believe that a death has to have significance in a work of fiction another than a character just simply dying. Most deaths that occur in real life happen without a purpose, so I don't see much of a reason why that shouldn't be carried over to tell a story.]

In that regard, I would advise you to watch out for Eden: It's an Endless World! as that's a manga that is quite unrelenting with its characters, their actions, and the consequences.

Quote:
spoiler[However, sometimes it doesn't work, it depends on the circumstances, for instance if the death has no purpose or meaning. Example would be if somebody dies protecting someone but that person who was momentarily saved also perishes, that just turns the death into a trivial waste that was all for nothing. Shows where the entire cast dies or humanity is exterminated on the other hand like Texhnolyze just rub me the wrong way, because while those people did some incredibly cool and interesting things durring the show, ultimately humanity is dead and gone and nobody will ever know about them or remember those things. To die lonely and be forgotten with nobody to rember your existance is the most terrible thing that could ever happen to anyone period. That would be the reason why I dislike the ending if I had to put my finger on it, it's utter fatalism which I don't agree with or subscribe to.]


spoiler[Eh, it's your personal preference, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. It is in my personal belief though that if a work of fiction is able to invoke an emotional response from its viewer(s) without having to resort to clichés and the such, then it did its job quite well. Same thing goes for characters in that I don't care if their likable, annoying, stupid, sexy, bitchy, etc. so as long they are well developed characters.

And as for fatalism and its relation to Texhnolyze... well, I can understand you not liking that concept, and I'm not a fan of inevitability either, but it's just something to accept. Looking around me I can't see any other way for humanity to eventually come to terms with one another and live their lives to the fullest and peacefully unless some higher being or aliens intervene. We keep on falling deeper and deeper until we've reached the bottom with no way out, and eventually we'll die out just as shown in Texhnolyze. That's really not so much pessimism as it is just simply an observation based on human nature, and like I said it isn't something you have to like but at least should acknowledge.]


Quote:
spoiler[Sure there's some really crappy people in the world but there's just as many reasonable and good people.]


spoiler[Oh, Texhnolyze had its fair share of awful people and good people. I would go far as to say that the majority of the major cast is in fact honestly good people. Of course you could've been making an offhand remark and I just misinterpreted it.]

adonais wrote:
Ah, but where the end of Texhnolyze didn't do it for me, spoiler[Gantz] pulled it off in spades because spoiler[they all die in the beginning of the show, and the end brings a sense of closure, which I felt was missing from Texhnolyze.] But thanks for making the comparison, it made me realize that I might come to appreciate Texhnolyze better upon a second viewing.


While I didn't see all of Gantz due to going to the manga after episode thirteen, I have seen and read what leads up to the end and spoiler[it doesn't seem to bring that much closure; it seems to be more of an open-ended finale than one which is "final." Texhnolyze makes it painstakingly clear that this is the end without any question at all and leaves you with no doubts as everyone, including Ichise at the ends, dies.]

Of course, that's just me nit-picking.

cheezisgoooood wrote:
So...many...spoiler tags...can't...go on...reading through thread...


Aye, don't look as you definitely don't won't to be spoiled. Come back after your order arrives and you watch the series to see the comments, perhaps even make some of your own.

Anyway, one point I would like to bring up is something that I mentioned to Hoenheim on AIM. There were various points when watching Texhnolyze that I wondered if spoiler[what we were seeing was truly real. Ran's quick entrances and exits, seeing Ichise's father, Ikuse, and Yoshii up on the surface world, the occasionally grainy and "filtered" look at certain scenes, the fade out at the end, etc. So when I went online I found a fan site (warning: major spoilers for the whole series) dedicated to Texhnolyze. It was last updated in May of 2004, but it's a very detailed site with a lot of invaluable theories and explanations that anyone willing to understand specific elements and points in the series would be easily interested in.]

spoiler[Anyway, on that site it goes on to theorize that the world we see in the series is in fact a "dream world." Going from there it explains its connections with Ran, Kano, and the Class, which I found to be very enlightening. In a nutshell the world was eventually given to Kano's mind to envision but not to completely control, and by the end he commits "an act of suicide" of sorts when Ichise kills him by punching his head right off him, which is possibly why we see the darkness spread around Ichise as the show ends.]

I'll elaborate on that point later and go into things that the site didn't mention on that subject.
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